Mary

[Zeena]

so Mary is the "creature" ?

Yes indeedily doodily!
err, one of them! LOL!

Anything created with breath would suffice

 

[Axion]

Perhaps you as resident authority of catholicism, perhaps you can explain this to me:

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now, and at the hour of our death. Amen"

I'm not TLF, but it seems quite clear. We are asking Mary, Mother of Christ, and therefore mother of all His true Brethren to pray to God for all of us sinners on earth.

And this one:

"My Queen, My Mother, I offer myself entirely to thee. And to show my devotion to thee, I offer thee this day, my eyes, my ears, my mouth, and my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thy own, keep me, guard me as thy property and possession. Amen."

Now I may be ignorant, but to me this sounds an awful lot like prayers directed to, or offered up to Mary. There is a whole lot of prayers to Mary listed here:

http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm

As the resident authority, can you explain to me why it is you say you don't pray to Mary yet here are a couple of prayers directed to Mary?

Yes. Prayers are offered to Mary and to other Saints who are in the direct presence of God in heaven.

You probably misunderstand the meaning of the word Pray, which in its original English usage simply means to ASK. As in "I pray thee pass the salt." it does not indicate WORSHIP as some modern protestants seem to think.

I don't know where you got this information sister, but nobody in the Baptist churches where I attend pray to any saint. Our prayers are directed to God, not any saint.

Baptists are not the historic church, having only existed for the past 400 years. Prayer to Saints has been the Church practice for 2000

 

[TheListener]

Something occured to me when I was praying this morning.

Protestants love the catch phrase "What would Jesus do?"

WWJD

Well.... What would Jesus do?

As the Gospels tell us, Jesus would show great respect for His mother.


So, when you think about Mary, think WWJD?

 

[Iollain]

From now on my only desire is to do all things with Thee, though Thee and for Thee. I know I can accomplish nothing on my own strenght, where as You can do everything that is in the will of Thy Son

http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm



....does not this remind any one of the Holy Spirit indwelling and helping us, or is it just me?

Jesus said He could do nothing on His own strenght, and He was talking about the strenght of His Father....



Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


.....and now Mary can do anything??? Say WHAT!



Does not the Bible say to do all things for God......so what is this with , through, and for Mary???



Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Jhn 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.


Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


Jhn 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.


Jesus promised the Holy Spirit, not the spirit of Mary, so what is this 'through Thee' to Mary thingy??



Col 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;


....oh yes, i suppose it does not say women so that is alright to give Mary your eyes, ears, etc,........keep me and guard me, i dont remember the Apostles or anyone else asking each other to keep and guard them...........only asking God.

 

[TheListener]

From now on my only desire is to do all things with Thee, though Thee and for Thee. I know I can accomplish nothing on my own strenght, where as You can do everything that is in the will of Thy Son

http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm



....does not this remind any one of the Holy Spirit indwelling and helping us, or is it just me?

Jesus said He could do nothing on His own strenght, and He was talking about the strenght of His Father....



Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


.....and now Mary can do anything??? Say WHAT!



Does not the Bible say to do all things for God......so what is this with , through, and for Mary???



Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Jhn 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.


Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


Jhn 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.


Jesus promised the Holy Spirit, not the spirit of Mary, so what is this 'through Thee' to Mary thingy??



Col 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;


....oh yes, i suppose it does not say women so that is alright to give Mary your eyes, ears, etc,........keep me and guard me, i dont remember the Apostles or anyone else asking each other to keep and guard them...........only asking God.

Maybe I'll complete your post to keep things in context:

From the same website posted above,

"Due to my Roman Catholic background I believe that there is only one God, externally existent in three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. I also believe that there's only one-way to come to the Father, which way is through His Son Jesus Christ. Therefore He's the light in my life and my guide on my way to the Father."

http://www.marypages.com/index.html

 

[icedtea]

As the Gospels tell us, Jesus would show great respect for His mother.


So, when you think about Mary, think WWJD?

Jesus wouldn't pray to Mary. he prayed to His father; God. As do I.

 

[Iollain]

Maybe I'll complete your post to keep things in context:

From the same website posted above,

"Due to my Roman Catholic background I believe that there is only one God, externally existent in three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. I also believe that there's only one-way to come to the Father, which way is through His Son Jesus Christ. Therefore He's the light in my life and my guide on my way to the Father."

http://www.marypages.com/index.html

That is really great, but that is not an answer or excuse for this. And btw, that is the only reason i'm saying anything at all to ya'll, because of this claim.

 

[Iollain]

'I beg you to remain near me and near all priests.......'

Soooo, Mary's spirit is everywhere i presume is the belief?

 

[Zeena]

Something occured to me when I was praying this morning.

Protestants love the catch phrase "What would Jesus do?"

WWJD

Well.... What would Jesus do?

As the Gospels tell us, Jesus would show great respect for His mother.


So, when you think about Mary, think WWJD?

WWJD is a lie from the devil to keep your eyes offa Jesus!

It's not a matter of what He WOULD do!
It's a matter of what He IS doing in and through you and others and everywhere!

 

[Zeena]

Jesus wouldn't pray to Mary. he prayed to His father; God. As do I.

Praise Jesus!

HE LIVES!!!!

Weeeeeeeeeeeee!

 

[Zeena]

Maybe I'll complete your post to keep things in context:

From the same website posted above,

"Due to my Roman Catholic background I believe that there is only one God, externally existent in three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. I also believe that there's only one-way to come to the Father, which way is through His Son Jesus Christ. Therefore He's the light in my life and my guide on my way to the Father."

http://www.marypages.com/index.html

You claim to pray to God the Father through Jesus Christ His Son, so then, why pray to saints?

What you claim, and what you do are two different things..

It's not the hearer's of the word who are justified, but the doers..

 

[TheListener]

You claim to pray to God the Father through Jesus Christ His Son, so then, why pray to saints?

What you claim, and what you do are two different things..

It's not the hearer's of the word who are justified, but the doers..

Yeah, I pray to God, through His son Jesus Christ in who alone is Salvation.

And I ask others to pray for me, I ask my brothers and sisters I know from Church, I ask brothers and sisters I only know through cyberspace and I ask brothers and sisters in Heaven. (Mostly Our Blessed Mother, I don't know much about other Saints).

Why is any of this an issue?

PS: I'm not Catholic and I can still understand and appreciate this.

 

[DeaconDean]

I'm not TLF, but it seems quite clear. We are asking Mary, Mother of Christ, and therefore mother of all His true Brethren to pray to God for all of us sinners on earth.



Yes. Prayers are offered to Mary and to other Saints who are in the direct presence of God in heaven.

You probably misunderstand the meaning of the word Pray, which in its original English usage simply means to ASK. As in "I pray thee pass the salt." it does not indicate WORSHIP as some modern protestants seem to think.




Baptists are not the historic church, having only existed for the past 400 years. Prayer to Saints has been the Church practice for 2000

If one reads Jesus' prayers, He always addressed or directed His prayers to the Father. Jesus was even emphatic to teach:

"But thou, when thou prayest,...pray to thy Father...After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven," -Mt. 6:6,9

Jesus prayed to the Father. Why should we pray to anyone else than the Father?

I'm not putting down your beliefs, by no means, but regardless of how you think, me being a Baptist, I take my example from Jesus, and he taught in His prayers to pray to God only. So if your denomination teaches it is OK to pray to Mary, fine, God Bless you in your convictions. But for me, to pray to anybody other than the Father, would for me be a sin.

Anyway, God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[TheListener]

If one reads Jesus' prayers, He always addressed or directed His prayers to the Father. Jesus was even emphatic to teach:

"But thou, when thou prayest,...pray to thy Father...After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven," -Mt. 6:6,9

Jesus prayed to the Father. Why should we pray to anyone else than the Father?

I'm not putting down your beliefs, by no means, but regardless of how you think, me being a Baptist, I take my example from Jesus, and he taught in His prayers to pray to God only. So if your denomination teaches it is OK to pray to Mary, fine, God Bless you in your convictions. But for me, to pray to anybody other than the Father, would for me be a sin.

Anyway, God Bless

Till all are one.

If Jesus prayed to himself it would have been a bit redundant, don't you think?

Another thing, would the definition of sin be different from one "denomination" to another?

 

[Zeena]

He came in the flesh..

Philippians 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

 

[Rick Otto]

Pope Pius IX Eneffabilis Deus (1854), "Let the most dear children of the Catholic Church hear these words and with more ardent zeal of piety, religion and love, proceed to worship, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary."

No wiggle room in that.
here we have a pope using the word "worship" and directing it be for one of god's creatures - Mary.


After reading the OP, my first thought was that the most important woman in (recent) history is Mary Jo Kopeckne....
because she kept Ted Kennedy from becoming president!

Sorry you feel let down that we don't share your respect for Mary, Axion.
I wonder if you have any sympathy for those of us who feel bad, thinking that you respect her too much?

I'm guessing you pobably don't or you wouldn't started this thread in the first place.

Funny how CAJosiah's quote of a pope endorsing worship of Mary got no mention.

 

[TheListener]

Pope Pius IX Eneffabilis Deus (1854), "Let the most dear children of the Catholic Church hear these words and with more ardent zeal of piety, religion and love, proceed to worship, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary."

No wiggle room in that.
here we have a pope using the word "worship" and directing it be for one of god's creatures - Mary.


After reading the OP, my first thought was that the most important woman in (recent) history is Mary Jo Kopeckne....
because she kept Ted Kennedy from becoming president!

Sorry you feel let down that we don't share your respect for Mary, Axion.
I wonder if you have any sympathy for those of us who feel bad, thinking that you respect her too much?

I'm guessing you pobably don't or you wouldn't started this thread in the first place.

Funny how CAJosiah's quote of a pope endorsing worship of Mary got no mention.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Catholic word for "Worship" can mean different things.

Lets be fair.

 

[lionroar0]

No wiggle room in that.
here we have a pope using the word "worship" and directing it be for one of god's creatures - Mary.


After reading the OP, my first thought was that the most important woman in (recent) history is Mary Jo Kopeckne....
because she kept Ted Kennedy from becoming president!

Sorry you feel let down that we don't share your respect for Mary, Axion.
I wonder if you have any sympathy for those of us who feel bad, thinking that you respect her too much?

I'm guessing you pobably don't or you wouldn't started this thread in the first place.

Funny how CAJosiah's quote of a pope endorsing worship of Mary got no mention.

There's one problem with your interpretation it does not take into account that the word worship has more then one meaning just like the word pray.. Also it is being intepreted through todays culture rather then through the culture of back then and back then worship also meant respect not only Worship.

That is where we get these expressions from.

He/she worships the ground he/she walks on. Worship your king. Hero worship.

Peace

 

[Rick Otto]

how about let's be honest.

This is exactly the legalistic hair-splitting drill I expected.

If you have to do that much tap-dancing to rationalize, it isn't worth it. 1854 isn't that long ago, and the pope should've been aware of the importance of the words he chooses.
Worship is worship and the examples given prove no different.

 

[lionroar0]

how about let's be honest.

This is exactly the legalistic hair-splitting drill I expected.

If you have to do that much tap-dancing to rationalize, it isn't worth it. 1854 isn't that long ago, and the pope should've been aware of the importance of the words he chooses.
Worship is worship and the examples given prove no different.

I agree with the listener. Lets be fair. Let Catholics interpret their documents and say what they mean instead of someone who is ignorant of Catholicism tell what they think those words mean.

Peace