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dave90
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wow thats soo disrespectful.
and you said that in the 150 reasons to be a catholic thread, that we are the enemy why?
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DeaconDean
γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
- Jul 19, 2005
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No offense friend. And I realize that you and I may have different views on this subject. And that is "ok." It is just like I said, if your denomination teaches that you can pray to Mary, then God Bless you in your convictions. It is just that to me, a Baptist, it would be a sin for me to direct any prayer to anybody other than God.
"After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." -Matt. 6:9-13
Or the model prayer Jesus taught here:
"And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil." -Lk. 11:1-4
Jesus taught to pray to the Father only. That is what I'm saying.
So that is why I say for me to pray to anybody else other than the Father, for me it is a sin. No offense friend.
God Bless
Till all are one.
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All those in heaven are alive - unless Jesus told lies.
Also if you claim not to be a child of Mary, how can you be a brother of Jesus?
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Logical fallacies abound here....
According to the logic of your post
1. Praying to Jesus or the Holy Spirit is a sin, because Jesus did not list them either!
2. Praying ANY other prayer but the Our Father is a sin, since only this was what Jesus told us to pray!
Wow
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I thought Jesus taught that He and the Father and the Holy Spirit were one and the same--therefore, your 1st comment is illogical, and so to then is your second, Spock--I am surprised.
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- Aug 6, 2005
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?
As a strong Protestant, here are my thoughts on the topic of Mary and the Marian teachings and dogmas around her...
Mary - the Mother of Our Lord
What God's Holy Scriptures tell us:
Matthew 1:23/Isaiah 7:14
Mark 3:31-35; 6:1-6
Luke 1:27, 31-33, 39-55
Luke 2:1-24, 49
John 2:4
John 19:26-27
Acts 1:14
That's it. That's all.
Immaculate Conception:
No Scripture remotely confirms it.
No Scripture clearly denies it.
Which leaves an unnormed but traditional opinion.
IMHO: Not dogma, not heresy. Opinion.
Recently dogma in the Catholic Church.
Perpetual Virginity:
No Scripture remotely confirms it.
No Scripture clearly denies it (but some verses may make it problematic)
Which leaves an unnormed but tradtional view.
IMHO: Not dogma, not heresy. Opinion.
Dogma in the Catholic Church.
Divine Maternity:
Scriptural support for the divine nature of Christ is solid. Since Mary is the mother of Jesus and Jesus has a divine nature, in THAT sense, this is normed.
Tradition affirms this interpretation.
IMHO: Accepted but potentially very misleading.
(Not dogma in the CC)
"Queen of Heaven":
Related to above; in ancient Jewish culture, the mother of a king often had this title. It's not dogma but a title for Mary. As such, it is fitting.
IMHO: Accepted, but potentially misleading.
(Not dogma in the CC)
Assumption of Mary:
Nothing in Scripture remotely confirms this.
Nothing in Scripture clearly denies this.
Which leaves an unnormed but traditional opinion.
IMHO: Not dogma, not heresy. Opinion.
Newly dogma in the CC
Coredemptrix:
Nothing in Scripture remotely confirms this.
Nothing in Scripture clearly denied this, although several verses make it problemmatic.
Which leave an unnormed and I think fairly new viewpoint.
IMHO: Not dogma, probably not heresy. Opinion.
(Not dogma in the CC)
Mediatrix of all Graces:
Nothing in Scripture remotely confirms this.
Nothing in Scripture clearly denies this, although 1 Tim. 2:5 may make this problemmatic.
IMHO: Not dogma, not heresy if property understood. Opinion.
(Not dogma in the CC)
"Mother of the Church"
Another official title for Mary (not dogma)
Nothing in Scripture remotely confirms this.
Nothing in Scripture clearly denies this.
IHMO, reveals an abilbical view of the Christianity and Christians.
Some quotes:
Pope Pius IX Eneffabilis Deus (1854), "Let the most dear children of the Catholic Church hear these words and with more ardent zeal of piety, religion and love, proceed to worship, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary."
Pope Pius XII Coronation at Fatima (1948), "Mary is indeed worthy to receive honor and might and glory. She is exalted to hypostatic union with the Blessed Trinity. Her Kingom is as great as her Son's and God's."
While I won't quote them, it's clear that Martin Luther used the titles for Mary of "Mother of God" and "Ever Virgin Mary." He clearly accepted the Perpetual Virginity of Mary (although not as dogma) and rejected the Immaculate Conception of Mary and Assumption of Mary - then not dogmas as they are now. Of course, for Protestants, Luther was just a student of the Bible - fully accountable and subject to it. His words carry no more authority than any other man's.
Some Misc. thoughts....
1. God focused very little on Mary in His holy written Word - the Scriptures. Like Mary, it's focus seems to be on Christ. I think we honor Mary best when we do the same.
2. While Catholics DO speak of a certain "worship" of Mary, they make it very clear they do not worship her as divine. "Mary belongs to the offspring of Adam and is one with all human beings in their need for salvation" (Vatican II) In modern English, "worship" has taken on that meaning it didn't have until recently.
3. At one time, Protestants (especially Lutherans and Anglicans) shared a certain veneration of Mary nearly the same as Catholics. As Catholics have become far more focused on Mary (note the dates of the quotes above, the Immaculate Conception was not declared dogma until 1854, the Assumption of Mary not until 1950), Protestants have moved away - in what I consider foolish and tragic.
4. Even an 18 year old guy cannot help but be amazingly moved by Luke Chapter 1. Here is a woman, probably younger than me, with a humility, faith and devotion that are beyond the ability of words to convey. That she might be considered chief among all saints is something I wouldn't challenge. Luke 1 and the story of Abraham and Issac about to be sacrificed are accounts that immediately spring to my mind when I think of what faith and discipleship mean...
My Protestant $0.01
Pax!
- Josiah
,
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Metanoia02
Owner of the invisible &a mp;
I guess Jesus praying to His Father was illogical if they indeed are the same person. But of course we know they are not the same person. Or do we?
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Buwahahaa, indeed--
How many times have we seen a Muslim use the same argument? How can Jesus be God and be praying to God?
Still, I only wanted to point out that praying to Jesus is praying to God, and praying to the Father is praying to God, and praying to the Holy Spirit is praying to God; so, a person who advocates praying only to God isn't necessarily saying not also to pray to Jesus. Or are they?
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Metanoia02
Owner of the invisible &a mp;
Buwahahaa, indeed--
How many times have we seen a Muslim use the same argument? How can Jesus be God and be praying to God?
Still, I only wanted to point out that praying to Jesus is praying to God, and praying to the Father is praying to God, and praying to the Holy Spirit is praying to God; so, a person who advocates praying only to God isn't necessarily saying not also to pray to Jesus. Or are they?
That's not the point. The question is: Is praying to the Father the same as praying to the Son?
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It was the point of my post. It was illogical to say that this person didn't advocate praying to Jesus because he advocated the Lords prayer--they are not mutually exclusive, meaning you can say pray only to God and also not have a problem praying to Jesus, and that was my point.
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ModernDaySpyridon
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- Aug 23, 2006
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Just pray to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
It's worked for the last 1900 years, and it shows no signs of stopping.
It's worked for the last 1900 years, and it shows no signs of stopping.
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