Mary - Christian Prototype

[Philip_B]

I don't think any Christian denominations completely ignore Mary. We don't really have any more on Mary than we do on the other faithful women of the Bible. There is only so much to contemplate. Much better to find other portions of Scripture that give guidance on living a faithful Christian life.

Yet there is no doubt that in come communities of faith, the reticence to even discuss Mary leads you to conclude that they would rather that the Saviour of the World was a test-tube baby. I don't mean to be crass, but it seems to me that whilst we don't get the incarnation we will struggle with our theology of the atonement.

 

[Shane R]

I don't think any Christian denominations completely ignore Mary. We don't really have any more on Mary than we do on the other faithful women of the Bible. There is only so much to contemplate. Much better to find other portions of Scripture that give guidance on living a faithful Christian life.

None of the other holy women were offered the same opportunity that Mary was offered. One must understand her as the new Eve, undoing the act of questioning disobedience through an act of unquestioning obedience, to truly appreciate how she stands out from the OT matrons. She was the God-bearer.

 

[RC1970]

None of the other holy women were offered the same opportunity that Mary was offered. One must understand her as the new Eve, undoing the act of questioning disobedience through an act of unquestioning obedience, to truly appreciate how she stands out from the OT matrons. She was the God-bearer.

Sounds like you are going further than just having Mary as a good Christian prototype. This is where I must "de-emphasize".

 

[-(iconoclast)-]

I agree. St. Mary is not God, but she is the Mother, or Birth Giver of God, Theotokos, as described by the Council of Chalcedon.

Earthly mother of jesus would sound better

 

[~Anastasia~]

It is more that ironic, it is one of the great shames of contemporary reformation Christianity, that for fear of being like the other group they walk away from the one person in the story who gives the such an inspirational motif.

Very true.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Earthly mother of jesus would sound better

That sounds like something that came up before ... and was dealt with in Church Councils.

There's a reason we call her the "bearer of God".

The problem was that they were separating the "human Jesus" from the Divine Logos, and that makes less of the Incarnation than it truly is.

 

[-(iconoclast)-]

That sounds like something that came up before ... and was dealt with in Church Councils.

There's a reason we call her the "bearer of God".

The problem was that they were separating the "human Jesus" from the Divine Logos, and that makes less of the Incarnation than it truly is.

Hello thank you for your kind response.

Calling mary the earthly moyher of Jesus does not in any way denote Jesus.

Being born to a virgin is quite a miracle.

I believe we have to watch out how we say things because mary is not the mother of god.

That would be similar to making her a goddess.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Earthly mother of jesus would sound better

It would be superfluous, because according to his Heavenly or divine nature, Jesus Christ is inherently uncreated and unoriginate, having been Begotten, not Made.

According to His assumed humanity however He has a mother.

 

[Philip_B]

I believe we have to watch out how we say things because mary is not the mother of god.

I think this is a very important point, and why I think the more ancient title from the Greek theotikos or God bearer is far more constructive, and removes the sense of origin that the term Mother seems to bring in connotation.

 

[RC1970]

That sounds like something that came up before ... and was dealt with in Church Councils.

There's a reason we call her the "bearer of God".

The problem was that they were separating the "human Jesus" from the Divine Logos, and that makes less of the Incarnation than it truly is.

But the fact that she was the God bearer doesn't say anything special about her. The baby she bore was fully human and I'm sure her pregnancy was typical and the birth experience was typical. The emphasis is on what the Holy Spirit did. That is what makes it unique.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I believe we have to watch out how we say things because mary is not the mother of god.

This statement is per se Nestorian.

It is an error because St. Mary is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus Christ is God (see John 1:1-14).

To deny this is to deny the Incarnation, which is entirely central to the Christian faith.

Nestorius attempted to get around this with a convoluted theology that attempted to differentiate between the divine Christ and the human Jesus, but this smacked of Gnosticism, Adoptionism and several other heresies and was thus rejected by the Church at the Council of Ephesus in 433 AD in favor of the Christology articulated by St. Cyril the Great.

My church, the Oriental Orthodox, uniquely continues to adhere to the precise mia physis terminology of St. Cyril, objecting both to the Chalcedonian model and to the Christology of Mar Babai the Great used by the Assyrians.

Some Ethiopian Orthodox continue to follow a rigid position holding to the view expressed by some OO saints, that Chalcedon itself is too close to Nestorius, but I take the view that since the Eastern Orthodox rejected apthartodocetism and took several other measures, for example, adding the hymn Ho Monoges ( "Only Begotten Son") to their liturgy, their understanding of Chalcedon is compatible with our miaphysite Christology.

 

[brinny]

I agree that Mary is not given enough credit for the unique and honored vessel she was, and how God chose her above all women. It is a precious thing, and one where honor is due. Mary was courageous and fearless in accepting God's mission for her, for to be pregnant and not married, especially at that time, could have been a death sentence. Her betrothed was an honorable man, and sought to protect Mary from any harm or disgrace when he chose the honorable, and unusual, and courageous thing in also stepping out in faith, trusting God with this very challenging circumstance.

(I also have high regard for the very humble and righteous man Joseph her betrothed was, even as he is not spoken of much in the Bible,)

 

[FireDragon76]

There are actually several faithful women in the Bible besides Mary. Women such as Ruth, Hannah, Esther, Priscilla, Mary Magdalene, Rahab, Deborah, Abigail, etc.

But only one Mother of God.

I always keep an icon of Mary around. She has gotten me through some tough times, times when I was losing my faith in God and feeling hopeless. And she has lead me to Jesus.

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus"

 

[Philip_B]

But the fact that she was the God bearer doesn't say anything special about her. The baby she bore was fully human and I'm sure her pregnancy was typical and the birth experience was typical. The emphasis is on what the Holy Spirit did. That is what makes it unique.

I almost get what you are saying, however I struggle a bit with it for the say that she was the God Bearer indeed says something amazing special about her. The child she bore was fully human and fully divine. I agree that in many respects (with some clear and obvious differences attested to in scripture) was like any other pregnancy, and yes, I think a proper emphasis on the work of the Holy Spirit is important here (and I think that is in part why the Eastern Churches lay more emphasis on the epiclesis rather than the words of institution in the liturgy).

None the less, Mary is no vassal or puppet, the whole force and strength of the incarnation is predicated on both the work of the Holy Spirit and the biggest YES even spoken by a mortal being.

 

[RC1970]

I just noticed that this thread is now "featured" between two threads about Lucifer.

 

[brinny]

I just noticed that this thread is now "featured" between two threads about Lucifer.

LOL!

Well maybe it'll off-set them.

 

[-(iconoclast)-]

This statement is per se Nestorian.

It is an error because St. Mary is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus Christ is God (see John 1:1-14).

To deny this is to deny the Incarnation, which is entirely central to the Christian faith.

Nestorius attempted to get around this with a convoluted theology that attempted to differentiate between the divine Christ and the human Jesus, but this smacked of Gnosticism, Adoptionism and several other heresies and was thus rejected by the Church at the Council of Ephesus in 433 AD in favor of the Christology articulated by St. Cyril the Great.

My church, the Oriental Orthodox, uniquely continues to adhere to the precise mia physis terminology of St. Cyril, objecting both to the Chalcedonian model and to the Christology of Mar Babai the Great used by the Assyrians.

Some Ethiopian Orthodox continue to follow a rigid position holding to the view expressed by some OO saints, that Chalcedon itself is too close to Nestorius, but I take the view that since the Eastern Orthodox rejected apthartodocetism and took several other measures, for example, adding the hymn Ho Monoges ( "Only Begotten Son") to their liturgy, their understanding of Chalcedon is compatible with our miaphysite Christology.

Luke 11:27-28
As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.

He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

 

[Philip_B]

I just noticed that this thread is now "featured" between two threads about Lucifer.

I glad to be associated with the right person in the story

 

[Philip_B]

Luke 11:27-28
As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you. He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

I think that is such a really valid point you raise, for Mary's praise is in her obedience, I am the servant of the Lord, let it be to me according to your word and yes for her that was that she gave birth and nursed, but striking more deeply he heard to word of God and obeyed.

Luke 1:45
And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her by the Lord.​

And blessed is the fruit of her womb, Jesus.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Luke 11:27-28
As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.

He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

None of which has anything to do with Nestorianism, the Council of Ephesus or the term theotokos.