Mary and Joseph

[Justified112]

They were not.

There was not a word in Aramaic, Hebrew, or koine Greek for "half siblings."

Irrelevant. That doesn't change the fact that they were His half-siblings. The Greek may not recognize that nuance, but there is no case to be made for Mary's perpetual virginity.

 

[Justified112]

Did you know that having your own copy of the Bible is an extrabiblical tradition?

So is using hymnals and pews.

But the perpetual virginity is extra biblical theology. It is a story that has no basis in fact or Scripture.

 

[prodromos]

That "until" pretty strongly implies that after the birth of Jesus, Mary and Joseph did have normal marital relations — otherwise, why bother to say it?

"The students worked quietly until the teacher returned to the classroom". This statement does not say anything about what the students did on the teacher's return. Did they change from their previous condition of working quietly? The text doesn't say one way or the other.
The Greek text is actually about the most concise and efficient use of the language to state that Jesus' birth was not the result of a sexual union.

 

[Monk Brendan]

But the perpetual virginity is extra biblical theology. It is a story that has no basis in fact or Scripture.

And singing from hymnals is NOT extra biblical theology?

Yes, the perpetual virginity of Mary DOES have a basis in Scripture.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Irrelevant. That doesn't change the fact that they were His half-siblings. The Greek may not recognize that nuance, but there is no case to be made for Mary's perpetual virginity.

Yes, one can be made.

 

[Strong in Him]

But is is legal for a girl to marry at age 14 in Alaska and North Carolina.

Ok, sorry, in MOST places in the west it is illegal for a girl to marry under the age of 14.

The point is still the same; different cultures have different practices.
A girl can get married in the UK at 18 without her parents permission - but she would still be considered to be very young.
In Jesus' day, if an 18 year old girl wasn't married, people might think her a bit old or wonder what was wrong with her.

 

[Dkh587]

And singing from hymnals is NOT extra biblical theology?

Yes, the perpetual virginity of Mary DOES have a basis in Scripture.

The doctrine of perpetual virginity is a doctrine of devils, so no, it doesn’t have a basis in scripture.

 

[Strong in Him]

Any children of Joseph would be called Jesus' brothers and sisters. Also, the behaviour of Jesus' brothers towards him is consistent with them being older than Him. If Jesus was the eldest then He would have been the absolute head after Joseph passed away.

I think he was.
I think that's why he didn't start his ministry til he was around 30, rather than 20, or 25. It's likely that Joseph had died young and Jesus, as the eldest, had to care for the family by carrying on Joseph's trade. Why else would there have been such a long gap, when Jesus knew by the age of 12 who he was?

 

[Natsumi Lam]

That's all well and good, but Jewish law never recognized a marriage that was never consummated. If she remained a virgin, then she was not really married.

This notion of some special adoptive marriage, which the Orthodox claim is unsupported by real history.

I 100% agree. Consummation was a requirement.

 

[Dave-W]

Not now but in the past it was commonplace.

Actually not THAT long ago.

Circa 1970 the eldest daughter of my mom’s best friend turned 16, and went into a serious depression. She cried and cried for days. I asked her what was wrong, and she said that “back home” (Ozarks of Arkansas) her turning 16 meant she was an old maid, too old to ever get married and she was doomed to a life of being single.

 

[prodromos]

I think he was.

His brothers don't treat Him as such.

I think that's why he didn't start his ministry til he was around 30, rather than 20, or 25.

He could not have been recognised as a Rabbi at younger than 30.

Its likely that Joseph had died young and Jesus, as the eldest, had to care for the family by carrying on Joseph's trade. Why else would there have been such a long gap, when Jesus knew by the age of 12 who he was?

See above.

 

[Dave-W]

That's all well and good, but Jewish law never recognized a marriage that was never consummated. If she remained a virgin, then she was not really married.

This notion of some special adoptive marriage, which the Orthodox claim is unsupported by real history.

Not exactly. The concept of betrothed but not yet FULLY married was actually rather common. Betrothal was much more than just being engaged, and the only way out of it was a full divorcement. So legally, they would be married but the marriage not yet consummated.

In the Hebrew text of Isaiah, it says the virgin shall be with child. Jewish transations just say “young girl.” But the word “virgin” is a unique one that many Messianic scholars believe specifically applied to woman betrothed but not yet consummated.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Why ask me when you know what my answer will be? Extrabiblical tradition that did not find a solid place to set her foot.

It's not actually. It's based off the story of the Roman who was baptized, and had his wife and "household" baptized with him. This included his children, his servants, and their children. He was a rich man based on his status, so he would have had many servants with many families within his household all of whom he had baptized.

 

[Jonaitis]

It's not actually. It's based off the story of the Roman who was baptized, and had his wife and "household" baptized with him. This included his children, his servants, and their children. He was a rich man based on his status, so he would have had many servants with many families within his household all of whom he had baptized.

In Reformed churches it is much more than that, it has to do with understanding who are in the covenant. I've heard that argument you brought up many times before.

 

[☦Marius☦]

In Reformed churches it is much more than that, it has to do with understanding who are in the covenant. I've heard that argument you brought up many times before.

Which is another reason I do not believe in reformation doctrine The covenant is about communion and spiritual regeneration. Why deprive a baby of that?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

The Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus. In my thinking, they were absolutely the biological children of Mary and Joseph.

Did Jesus have brothers and sisters (siblings)?

Oh and the canon ever and always outweighs anything written in non-canon.

There is "Biblical" evidence for the use of Brother as idiom of cousin or Kinsmen.


Jesus' "Brothers" (adelphoi)) = Cousins or Kinsmen
Luke 1:36 - Elizabeth is Mary's kinswoman. Some Bibles translate kinswoman as "cousin," but this is an improper translation because in Hebrew and Aramaic, there is no word for "cousin."

Luke 22:32 - Jesus tells Peter to strengthen his "brethren." In this case, we clearly see Jesus using "brethren" to refer to the other apostles, not his biological brothers.

Acts 1:12-15 - the gathering of Jesus' "brothers" amounts to about 120. That is a lot of "brothers." Brother means kinsmen in Hebrew.

Acts 7:26; 11:1; 13:15,38; 15:3,23,32; 28:17,21 - these are some of many other examples where "brethren" does not mean blood relations.

Rom. 9:3 - Paul uses "brethren" and "kinsmen" interchangeably. "Brothers" of Jesus does not prove Mary had other children.

Gen. 11:26-28 - Lot is Abraham's nephew ("anepsios") / Gen. 13:8; 14:14,16 - Lot is still called Abraham's brother (adelphos") . This proves that, although a Greek word for cousin is "anepsios," Scripture also uses "adelphos" to describe a cousin.

Gen. 29:15 - Laban calls Jacob is "brother" even though Jacob is his nephew. Again, this proves that brother means kinsmen or cousin.

Deut. 23:7; 1 Chron. 15:5-18; Jer. 34:9; Neh. 5:7 -"brethren" means kinsmen. Hebrew and Aramaic have no word for "cousin."

2 Sam. 1:26; 1 Kings 9:13, 20:32 - here we see that "brethren" can even be one who is unrelated (no bloodline), such as a friend.

2 Kings 10:13-14 - King Ahaziah's 42 "brethren" were really his kinsmen.

1 Chron. 23:21-22 - Eleazar's daughters married their "brethren" who were really their cousins.

Neh. 4:14; 5:1,5,8,10,14 - these are more examples of "brothers" meaning "cousins" or "kinsmen."

Tobit 5:11 - Tobit asks Azarias to identify himself and his people, but still calls him "brother."

Amos 1: 9 - brotherhood can also mean an ally (where there is no bloodline).


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[Jonaitis]

Which is another reason I do not believe in reformation doctrine The covenant is about communion and spiritual regeneration. Why deprive a baby of that?

I cannot deprive a baby of being incorporated in the covenant if the entry into the covenant is outside of my power.

 

[☦Marius☦]

But the perpetual virginity is extra biblical theology. It is a story that has no basis in fact or Scripture.

Those things are not necessarily synonymous you know? There are in fact things outside of scripture that are true.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes - half-brothers and half-sisters: the biological children of Mary and Joseph.

Couldn't help but notice your name. Some people don't like chicken noodle soup but I do and I also like other kinds of guk and chigae.

 

[☦Marius☦]

I cannot deprive a baby of being incorporated in the covenant if the entry into the covenant is outside of my power.

So your church allows babies to commune without being baptized?