Mary and Joseph

[CaliforniaJosiah]

but how do you know you are the one who is reading the bible correctly and we are the one who aren't?

How does your particular denomination know that?


You continue to bring up this question, over and over, of greatest importance for Protestant teachers but then evade it yourself, as if it's entirely moot for a Catholic teacher. Odd. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.



And again, you seem to be getting the situation reversed. Protestants have no dogma concerning the conception of Mary, the private sex lives of Mary and Joseph or the body of Mary after she died (or didn't). No Protestant denomination known to me has any dogma whatsoever on these 3 topics. We're not saying anyone is right or wrong about that. You are. You are saying these things are correct, at the highest level of certainty and importance, and if one knowingly denies them, they are a heretic. I think you continue ot have the situation reversed.

 

[PookySmiley]

In your opinion.

No, scripture says they married and had children after Jesus was born. That is not my opinion, it is the words of those who wrote the scriptures. Therefore the fact is that those who teach other than scripture are WRONG.

 

[Benedicta00]

How does your particular denomination know that?

becuase my denomination is not a denomination but Christ's own Church.

Let me share a little Augustine with you, kiddo.


AUGUSTINE

"For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge of which a few spiritual men attain in this life, so as to know it, in the scantiest measure, indeed, becuase they are but men, still without any uncertainty...The consent of peoples and nations keep me in Church, so does her authority, inaugerated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The SUCCESSION of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the APOSTLE PETER, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave it in charge to feed his sheep, down to the present EPISCOPATE...The epistle begins thus:--'Manicheus, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the providence of God the Father. These are the wholesome words from the perennial and living fountain.' Now, if you please, patiently give heed to my inquiry. I do not beleive Manichues to be an apostle of Christ. Do not, I beg you, be enraged and begin to curse. For you know that it is my rule to beleive none of your statements without consideration. Therefore I ask, who is this Manicheus? You will reply, An Apostle of Christ. I do not beleive it. Now you are at a loss what to say or do; for you promised to give knowledge of truth, and here you are forcing me to beleive what I have no knowledge of. Perhaps you will read the gospel to me, and will attempt to find there a testimony to Manicheus. But should you meet with a person not yet beleiving in the gospel, how would you reply to him were he to say, I do not beleive? For MY PART, I should NOT BELEIVE the gospel except moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. So when those on whose authority I have consented to beleive in the gospel tell me not to beleive in Manicheus, how can I BUT CONSENT?"
C. Epis Mani 5,6

Augustine was way cool.

 

[PookySmiley]

If you conclude that, becuase you think the bible is all that there is and you read it through Protestant colored glasses with a contempt for the Catholic Church then no wonder you don't see what we do.

The Bible is the word of God, so that is all there is! The rest comes from men.

But ask yourself, why do we see this so clearly and you don't?

Because you are leaning on your own knowledge and understanding from men; not from the Lord.

Billions are Catholic and Orthodox all over the world, so there is something to our claim.

Big deal, millions are Islamic, Buddhist and follow Confucius; you, I assume feel there is something to their claim too. How about the billions who "knew" the world was flat; I guess you think there was something to their claim as well.

I can show you every biblical justification for what the Church teaches

Goodie, do so. Where does the bible say that man can forgive sins? Where does it say that you must do penance and pay money to be forgiven? Where does it say that religious leaders should be called father? Where does it say that you should abstain from meat on fridays? Where does it say that you must break your fast on sunday with communion?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

becuase my denomination is not a denomination but Christ's own Church.

So it so self-claims.

If another teacher also so self-claimed, would you also consider that to be the objective evidence you insist upon for Protestants? Or is it only if it's your own particular denomination?

I enjoyed the snippet from Augustine. I find no reference to your denomination there, but I'm pretty sure you are interpreting "catholic church" to mean your denomination and he doesn't fit the before 300 AD framework I suggested. By his time, you could be right - he might be referring to your denominaiton, although such can't be determined from the little snippet you provided. But, what's curious to ME, is that Augustine never met any Apostle (or even someone who knew someone who knew someone who knew someone who knew someone who did), and none of his writtings were included by anyone in the Canon of Scripture. And you must know that Calvinists quote from Augustine far more than Catholics do - often to support teachings Catholics reject. This aspect of the Catholic's use of the ECF has always seemed odd to me; they are unquestionabley authoritative when the CC agrees with them and undeniably wrong when the CC doesn't. As I was taught, "It is the [Catholic] Church that determines what is and is not Tradition."

But, as you know, the CC is not the only teacher (person, congregation, denomination) to make self-claims for self. Such doesn't suggest that the self-claim is false, of course, but it doesn't suggest that it's correct either, IMHO. Unless you are willing to accept that anything stated by anyone is unquestionably and infallibly correct if the self same so self claims. Otherwise, IMHO, that's not the case - and that would seem to apply to the CC as well.


Just my perspective...
Thank you for the discussion and your valued input.


Pax!


- Josiah

 

[Uphill Battle]

Yes time and time again men fail, big surprise there. This is why you shouldn't be putting supposed men of God on a pedestal.

When are you all going to learn how to separate the the sinful mean evil men from the actual teachings of the Church since the days of the apostles?

And when are you going to be fair and truthful and acknowledge that for every bad man, there are thousands of good ones?

The Church has hurt ppl, Non Catholic men of the cloth has hurt ppl too. So where does that leave us? With Protestantism and bible only fundamenatlism?

Again, I ask since the time Luther freed the peasants from big bad mean Rome, when have we had peace and oneness in the body of Christ? How are ppl anymore protected against men of God hurting ppl?

How has sola scripture solved what you complain about?

We are more divided then ever.

x'cept protestants don't claim that their church is 100% infallible in it's teachings. RCC does. So, yes, Protestantism is just as guilty. We acknowledge that we HAVE guilt, that we are not perfect, that we don't have it all right.

Too bad not everyone can realize they aren't perfect!

​

 

[ScottBot]

I don't believe that any priest can pull Christ off of His throne and place Him in a piece of bread.. I see communion as in rememberance of Christ as He said.. So no I don't see this happening in the scriptures..

A priest cannot do it, but Christ Himself can.....

 

[Benedicta00]

x'cept protestants don't claim that their church is 100% infallible in it's teachings. RCC does. So, yes, Protestantism is just as guilty. We acknowledge that we HAVE guilt, that we are not perfect, that we don't have it all right.

Too bad not everyone can realize they aren't perfect!

​

When are you all going to lose the false premises?

The Church does not claim to be impeccable just that her teachings are error free.

You are the one who keeps blurring the line between teaching and behavior.

 

[Benedicta00]

So it so self-claims.

NO... it's back up by history's claim. We can historically trace the Catholic Church right smack back to Jesus Christ and the 12 apostoles, you trace what you got back to Martin Luther.

You are under no compulsion to believe this, however.

You can go on believing what ever it is that pleases you, CJ.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

The Church does not claim to be impeccable just that her teachings are error free.

Actually, the Catholic Church so self claims that it's own teachings are "impeccable" (if you prefer that term).

I could ask you, again, about that - as several have, but you don't seem to want to discuss that.

 

[Benedicta00]

Actually, the Catholic Church so self claims that it's own teachings are "impeccable" (if you prefer that term).

I could ask you, again, about that - as several have, but you don't seem to want to discuss that.

Cool it with the false premises, CJ,

The Church does not claim to be perfect, just that her teachings are free from error. Too bad the rest of you can't say the same, huh CJ?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

NO... it's back up by history's claim. We can historically trace the Catholic Church right smack back to Jesus Christ and the 12 apostoles, you trace what you got back to Martin Luther.

You are under no compulsion to believe this, however.

I would if you had the objective evidence that you demand of Protestants. IF you had that evidence, everyone would agree with you, wouldn't they?

I have seem NOTHING whatsoever in Scripture or from any early Christian that suggests that the Catholic Denomination existed in 33 AD. Or even 233 AD. And while I'm pretty confident that ALL Christian clergy have a chain of ordinations back to the Apostles, there is absolutely no objective evidence to confirm that. There is no objective historical record of every ordination that ever took place from 33AD on. There were precious few objective historic records at all from those early decades and centuries when there was no denomination and the church was largely an underground illegal movement. Yes, you can claim whatever your ego allows you to claim - and you might be right, but since you consider the claims of noncatholics as incredible and categorically rejected, I wonder why you so expect everyone to consider the claims of the CC to be so infallible and categorically acceptable?

And again, you seem to have the situation reversed here. YOU are the one making the claims of infalliblity, YOU are the one making the claim that Jesus founded your specific particular denomination. I'm not.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

The Church does not claim to be perfect, just that her teachings are free from error. Too bad the rest of you can't say the same, huh CJ?

Anyone with sufficient ego can claim anything they want.
Some do.
The RCC is not the only denomination or teacher to self claim things or itself.

 

[Benedicta00]

Lets discus this CJ, you say we self claim?

Well, how in the world does that make any difference here?

How does that make you true, your claims are self made, are they not-- of course they are, so I do believe that brings us back to square one.

On who's authority do you speak, CJ?

And your claim that the Catholic Church's claim is only a self claim, so what now? That is your self clam, so it amounts to what, CJ? Nothing.

CJ, you have no point here to make, do you?

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

ONLY Jesus is free of error...sorry, no church or doctrine is. I ..ah, never mind.........
/me walks away again, shaking head....

 

[Benedicta00]

Anyone with sufficient ego can claim anything they want.
Some do.
The RCC is not the only denomination or teacher to self claim things or itself.

Yes... CJ, they can...

 

[Benedicta00]

ONLY Jesus is free of error...sorry, no church or doctrine is. I ..ah, never mind.........
/me walks away again, shaking head....

This is what we call a false dichotomy.

"He who hears you...hears me..." Melody,
Jesus never said this to a bible but to his 12 apostles, AKA, His Church.

Jesus and His Church are not two separate things, His Church is His bride and when the Church speaks on matters of faith and morals only, she does so with the voice of Christ.

This is why her teachings are error free, becuase Christ can not device or be deceived.

You all can not say that about yourselves, can you?

You can in no way say that you can be sure that your teachings whether they be from pastor Joe or pastor Bob is error free... you know why? Christ wasn't speaking this to them, he didn't give them infallibility to be able to read the bible and be sure they do not make a mistake when they teach yo faith and morals. he gave this promise to His Church.

 

[Rick Otto]

It all amounts to... the same thing.

 

[Benedicta00]

It all amounts to... the same thing.

This is an important break through...so what do we conclude then?

That this is what God left? A bunch of believers chasing their tales?

You all just love to tell us what the bible really says, well all I want to know is, on who's authority do you all speak?

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

This is what we call a false dichotomy.

"He who hears you...hears me..." Melody,
Jesus never said this to a bible but to his 12 apostles, AKA, His Church.

Jesus and His Church are not two separate things, His Church is His bride and when the Church speaks on matters of faith and morals only, she does so with the voice of Christ.

This is why her teachings are error free, becuase Christ can not device or be deceived.

You all can not say that about yourselves, can you?

You can in no way say that you can be sure that your teachings whether they be from pastor Joe or pastor Bob is error free... you know why? Christ wasn't speaking this to them, he didn't give them infallibility to be able to read the bible and be sure they do not make a mistake when they teach yo faith and morals. he gave this promise to His Church.

um...wrong. sorry...Jesus Christ is NOT a church denomination. OH my goodness..forget it before I bang myhead off a wall...this is just nuts...

what is happening..is coming here reading all this is pushing me further and further away from this denomination..........so sad.