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Martin Luther's Apocrypha Removal

Mountainmike

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I don't know the extent to which this answers your question, but it is clear that both apostles and Jesus himself in one instance are provably quoting the Septuagint, not Torah, which we know from fragmented copies contained such as Maccabees. So - for the apostles Septuagint was scripture, as therefore was Maccabees.

the problem with Maccabees is it makes explicit reference to prayers for the dead, which was a no no for some reformationists with the undertones of purgatory.


Before I begin, I have 2 requests: please only reply if you're knowlegeable on the history around the Apocrypha (old & new testament), and this thread is not about a debate over the authenticity of the Apocrypha; I simply want to know more about how the Apocryphal books were chosen, and how/when they were or weren't officially removed from the Protestant Bibles.

Part of Martin Luther's attacks on the Catholic church was the books of the Bible now known as the Apocrypha; Sirach, Baruch, Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabbees, and Wisdom, along with some chapters of Daniel and Esther. As I understand it, he left them in the Bible, but moved them to the end of the Old Testament, in a new section he called the "Apocrypha", decreeing that they were good literature, but not inspired. Likewise, he also considered James, Revelation, Hebrews, and Jude to be nonapastolic, and moved them to the end of the New Testament, in another set of the "Apocrypha".
Why was it that the Old Testament Apocrypha was removed, but the New Testament Apocrypha still included, even to the point of James ("epistle of straw") being considered one of the best books to start reading the Bible with?
Feel free to include any corrections to details I may have messed, and please include links to articles on the subject.
Remember, this isn't a debate over the Apocryphas, but me trying to understand the history thereof.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Feel free to 'inform' me.
No. If the original poster or others would like to know then they can drop me a private note, but I don't want to go into anything with you in what looks like it would be an ugly exchange. Sorry but I don't get debatable non-debates.
 
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klutedavid

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Wow. What a great thread.
Immediately I concur in the Spirit.
Esther and Daniel are fundamental, and the four books of Maccabees too.

That would make the Bible to be 70 books, a much more satisfying number. Perhaps also Enoch and Jasher can be considered as an 'extra' two, since they are both quoted in Scripture. That would make 70/72 books, as per the number of apostles sent out on ministry.
A Bible so big that you would need a trolley to move it.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Yes, there is that. But also Genesis contains the first statement of the Gospel (Gen 3:15), and there is no need for the Gospel without Genesis.

Further, Genesis is more than just the creation story. In fact, the creation story is just a setup for other things. One would be questions like, "Couldn't God have saved us a different way? Couldn't he just have wiped out all the bad people with, for example, a flood, and started over? Wouldn't that make a new Eden?" Of course the answer is no. So, all those attempts to build a new world - as the Puritans tried to do - is pointless.

But the biggest part of Genesis is the story of Joseph. It occupies Genesis 37 to 50. And Joseph is a huge Christ figure. He sets up the entire history of Israel - shows that God's plan for Christ runs through all of history - shows that God interacts in history and is not some gnostic mystical knowledge - and on and on.
Agreed, and in a sense that's what I meant. Not only creation, but so much more that shapes human history and sets the stage for the Gospel.

I taught on the Annunciation this morning (looking ahead because our time is limited this time of year and it's s big thing for us), and I included both Genesis and Revelation as necessary to understand the whole story, even for children. :)
 
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~Anastasia~

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The O.T. Apocrypha were the non-Hebrew books that the Jews did not consider part of Scripture. Luther was essentially taking the Jewish view of canonicity here, as well as echoing doubts from some early Christian leaders. Later Reformers would say "The church may certainly read these books and learn from them as far as they agree with the canonical books. But they do not have such power and virtue that one could confirm from their testimony any point of faith or of the Christian religion." Much earlier, St Athanasius had written in somewhat similar words that these were "appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness."



On this, Luther echoed some other doubts by early Christians. But other Reformers soon corrected him, and Protestants soon agreed that James, Revelation, Hebrews, and Jude were apostolic. However, it's interesting that Cardinal Cajetan, who opposed Luther, doubted these books as well.
(This is part of what I referred to - that different parts of Scripture have always been held as having differing levels of importance within the ekklesia.)
 
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Resha Caner

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No. If the original poster or others would like to know then they can drop me a private note, but I don't want to go into anything with you in what looks like it would be an ugly exchange. Sorry but I don't get debatable non-debates.

Come now. Give me a chance. Answer post #28 and I promise I will say nothing more than "Thanks for the information" unless you ask me a question.
 
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tz620q

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There was an ongoing debate since earliest days what was or was not, canon. Some Church luminaries had variant opinions, such as Jerome, who favoured the Vita Hebraica - prefering OT books written originally in Hebrew or partially so, to the later Aramaic ones, or giving precedence to the LXX.

You are one of my favorite posters on here. I learn a lot from you. After studying Jerome, I think his opinions shifted over his lifetime. He initially translated most of the Septuagint from Greek into Latin. At that time, he did this because his Greek was much better than his Hebrew (with his Aramaic being even worse). When asked by the Pope to go to Israel and learn from the Hebrew scholars there how to translate the Hebrew manuscripts, he complied and over around 30 years became entrenched in the Hebrew only view that he was taught. He successfully translated what he could get in Hebrew to Latin. He filled in the "gaps" from Aramaic and Greek. Later in life, when pressed on his preface to the deuterocanonicals that seemed to relegate them to of lesser importance, he forcefully defended the canon as ratified at Hippo and Carthage. So I think he seems to me to be a scholar that got caught up in the politics of beliefs and went which ever way the wind was blowing around him.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I think it's usually worth noting in these sorts of discussions that even though Luther had his opinions on the subject, these opinions have never been formally accepted in Lutheranism. And, in fact, there is no official Lutheran position to speak of. In other words, the Deuterocanonical question is still an open question, at least technically speaking, from the Lutheran vantage point.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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PaulCyp1

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Before I begin, I have 2 requests: please only reply if you're knowlegeable on the history around the Apocrypha (old & new testament), and this thread is not about a debate over the authenticity of the Apocrypha; I simply want to know more about how the Apocryphal books were chosen, and how/when they were or weren't officially removed from the Protestant Bibles.

Part of Martin Luther's attacks on the Catholic church was the books of the Bible now known as the Apocrypha; Sirach, Baruch, Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabbees, and Wisdom, along with some chapters of Daniel and Esther. As I understand it, he left them in the Bible, but moved them to the end of the Old Testament, in a new section he called the "Apocrypha", decreeing that they were good literature, but not inspired. Likewise, he also considered James, Revelation, Hebrews, and Jude to be nonapastolic, and moved them to the end of the New Testament, in another set of the "Apocrypha".
Why was it that the Old Testament Apocrypha was removed, but the New Testament Apocrypha still included, even to the point of James ("epistle of straw") being considered one of the best books to start reading the Bible with?
Feel free to include any corrections to details I may have messed, and please include links to articles on the subject.
Remember, this isn't a debate over the Apocryphas, but me trying to understand the history thereof.
 
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PaulCyp1

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Martin Luther, a priest of the Catholic Church, decided to remove 10 books of God's Holy Word, which every Christian on Earth had used for the preceding 1,200 years, whose teaching didn't agree with some of His new unbiblical ideas - 7 Old Testament books and 3 New Testament books. His group of followers were on the verge of rebellion over trashing the writings of the Apostles, so he had to back down on the 3 New Testament books. If he had his way, Protestants would have an incomplete bible of 63 books instead of the incomplete bible of 66 books they now use. Either the 73 books of the original Holy Bible were selected under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, or they were not. If they were,
then no-one has any right to reject any of them. If they were not, then we cannot be certain that any of them are the inspired Word of God. You can't have it both ways.
 
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GUANO

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The Bible is a book composed of many books. It contains divine inspiration but it is not divine in itself. There, I saved you the trouble of spending all that time to reach a conclusion...

God's Word isn't recognized or authorized by human organizations attempting to co-op it because it does not exist on paper. Haha, the joke is on them! And you if you believe their dogmatic nonsense.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Martin Luther, a priest of the Catholic Church, decided to remove 10 books of God's Holy Word, which every Christian on Earth had used for the preceding 1,200 years, whose teaching didn't agree with some of His new unbiblical ideas - 7 Old Testament books and 3 New Testament books. His group of followers were on the verge of rebellion over trashing the writings of the Apostles, so he had to back down on the 3 New Testament books. If he had his way, Protestants would have an incomplete bible of 63 books instead of the incomplete bible of 66 books they now use. Either the 73 books of the original Holy Bible were selected under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, or they were not. If they were,
then no-one has any right to reject any of them. If they were not, then we cannot be certain that any of them are the inspired Word of God. You can't have it both ways.

This is just as bad as when Protestants imagine Martin Luther by divine inspiration removed books from the Bible to give us the "pure Bible" or some such.

That is, there are two false narratives that get brandied about on this subject. Catholics tend to have one, and Protestants another. And unsurprisingly Catholics and Protestants tend to get the history, events, and circumstances of the period very wrong because instead of reading history they are reading propaganda.

For one, the Deuterocanonicals weren't "removed" because Luther considered their contents problematic, that's a fiction. It's sometimes claimed (by both Protestants and Catholics) that Luther took issue with, for example, 2 Maccabees because it includes prayer for the dead--except prayers for the dead weren't a problem for Luther, nor are they a problem for Lutherans. In fact our Confessions explicitly state that we do not reject praying for the dead.

"Now, as regards the adversaries' citing the Fathers concerning the offering for the dead, we know that the ancients speak of prayer for the dead, which we do not prohibit; but we disapprove of the application ex opere operato of the Lord's Supper on behalf of the dead." - Defense of the Augsburg Confession, Article XXIV, 94

Likewise, paragraph 96 of the same addresses it again, in that accusations made were that we like the heretic Aerius forbade prayers for the dead, but that we do no such thing and prayers for the dead are not forbidden; what we rejected was the offering of the Most Holy Eucharist on behalf of the dead as though the Sacrament were ex opere operato benefited the soul of the departed.

Some likewise say Luther rejected them because of Purgatory, except that isn't true either since the Deuterocanonicals do not declare the doctrine of Purgatory; and one would have absolutely no need to remove the Deuterocanonicals in order to reject the doctrine of Purgatory, as the Orthodox do just fine without a doctrine of Purgatory and they embrace the Deuterocanonicals. These are entirely unrelated.

Luther held to various opinions on the Deuterocanonicals personally, his chief issue wasn't that their content was problematic--but whether they belonged in the Canon. A question that had never been settled or established at any point in the history of the Church, and of which there had been many diverse opinions throughout the history of the Church.

Further, Luther held suspicions not about three books of the NT, but four: Hebrews, James, Jude, and the Apocalypse. Luther wasn't somehow unique here, as though these had never been questioned. These are four books of the historic Antilegomena, and many of the ancient Fathers regarded these books as dubious. It's true that Luther considered James an "epistle of straw", however he highly regarded the Apocalypse.

And as I mentioned above, those of us who call ourselves Lutheran have no official position on such matters. Luther's translation is not authoritative, Luther's opinions on these books are not authoritative. Lutheranism doesn't have an official position on the canonical status of the Deuterocanonicals. From the Lutheran POV the Canon of the Bible is technically open because it has never been formally closed. Something only an Ecumenical Council could accomplish, and we do not recognize any Ecumenical Councils as valid and licit since the Second Council of Nicea which condemned the heresy of Iconoclasm.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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FireDragon76

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I think it's usually worth noting in these sorts of discussions that even though Luther had his opinions on the subject, these opinions have never been formally accepted in Lutheranism. And, in fact, there is no official Lutheran position to speak of. In other words, the Deuterocanonical question is still an open question, at least technically speaking, from the Lutheran vantage point.

-CryptoLutheran

Luther actually translated the Apocrypha/Deuterocanon into German.
 
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goldenboy

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You don't want me to 'debate' yet I was trying to provide some history of the canonicity of those books, particularly that the Council of Trent copied the council of Florence copying the regional council of Hippo going all the way back to Augustine. I am not trying to be offensive.
OOoops! Sorry, I was unclear. I'm not accusing you of 'debating' nor trying to indicate that I don't want you to debate. I included that to indicate that I was not trying to debate, neither at the moment, prepared to; and to indicate that I was trying to kind of nudge in the general direction of whatever point I was making.

I'm long past the debating stage in my life-I now go directly to arguing! LOL.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I think the main problem Catholics have with Luther removing these books is that the content of the books seems to speak against his theology. James in particular with the phrase "You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." Even if Protestants wish to say a surface reading of that passage is mistaken, Luther in removing this book and not seeking to reconcile it with the canon as a whole, seems to remove an obvious obstacle to his Sola Fide position. This isn't to critique Lutheranism as a whole but Luther himself and what he was willing to do in order to perpetuate his theological emphasis. Luther did himself no favors in calling into question the canonical books which had been more or less settled by not just the Western Church but the Eastern Church. Even Luther's reordering of the canon reflect his personal views rather than simply adhering to the scripture as he received it. I think Lutherans have done right to consider Luther mistaken on this matter of canon.
 
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chevyontheriver

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OOoops! Sorry, I was unclear. I'm not accusing you of 'debating' nor trying to indicate that I don't want you to debate. I included that to indicate that I was not trying to debate, neither at the moment, prepared to; and to indicate that I was trying to kind of nudge in the general direction of whatever point I was making.

I'm long past the debating stage in my life-I now go directly to arguing! LOL.
Considering this whole discussion has laid fallow for two whole months I would say that's a very very low level argument. ;-)
 
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Micah888

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I simply want to know more about how the Apocryphal books were chosen, and how/when they were or weren't officially removed from the Protestant Bibles.
Before they were removed from Protestant Bibles, they were already excluded from the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible). And that had divine approval. See Luke 24:25,44,45.
 
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