Married Popes?

[Markie Boy]

Markie Boy, I pray that you find peace wherever that may be.

I do think it odd that you feel the Catholic church must be perfect. The only time I have heard this claim from Catholicism is in regards to faith and morals; but that is a claim made by many churches. It is important though to distinguish between the teachings of a church and the sinful men that make up that church. I hope you are not trying to find a church made up of perfect people. It reminds me of the old saying from Groucho Marx, "I don’t want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member."

As for the priest shortage, in my area we have been ordaining 2-3 priests a year for over a decade as well as sending others to religious orders. Our pastor contributes this, since many grew up in our parish, to our adding a Perpetual Adoration Chapel. Sometimes all we need is a quiet place to pray. Here is hoping you find such a place.

Thank you - I appreciate it and can use all the help possible.

I don't expect perfect people by a long shot. It just blows my mind that they will close parishes before they consider ordaining mature, married men.

That's the call that makes me question where their motives are, as it seems more dedicated to perpetuating a decision than serving the people.

 

[prodromos]

I hope you mean that remark as a joke.

I had hoped it would be obvious.
I'm just highlighting how those who make the claim about God preserving His Church from potential bad popes, haven't really thought it through thoroughly.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I had hoped it would be obvious.
I'm just highlighting how those who make the claim about God preserving His Church from potential bad popes, haven't really thought it through thoroughly.

true story. or Popes that aren't bad, but contradict previous Popes.

 

[Markie Boy]

I never really thought of it well enough. Why did we abandon St. Peter's example and St. Paul's advice relating to bishops? A generic "chastity is better" or "for holiness" is not a valid argument.

I've seen mumbling around the "intellidoxia" blogosphere about how the Church would be better off with married bishops (less rampant homosexuality, larger selection base, fewer in-group shenanigans and "select people" rise quickly through monastic orders anyway towards archbishoprics without ever setting foot in a monastery etc.). I haven't been able to make an opinion of my own so I'm just wondering.

I think Scripture says it one way for a reason - God always has a reason. I'm very convinced on that.

Whenever we deviate from what He says it's not for the better, and we are choosing our way, not His.

There are some place I'd like to think something different than what Scripture says - if we can't do it in those places, why can we do it on qualifications for Church leaders?

 

[Markie Boy]

I never really thought of it well enough. Why did we abandon St. Peter's example and St. Paul's advice relating to bishops? A generic "chastity is better" or "for holiness" is not a valid argument.

I've seen mumbling around the "intellidoxia" blogosphere about how the Church would be better off with married bishops (less rampant homosexuality, larger selection base, fewer in-group shenanigans and "select people" rise quickly through monastic orders anyway towards archbishoprics without ever setting foot in a monastery etc.). I haven't been able to make an opinion of my own so I'm just wondering.

I have to ask, as I'm in a Catholic Church at the moment - does Orthodoxy have common homosexuality? This is a big issue for us at the moment as it is very rampant.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I have to ask, as I'm in a Catholic Church at the moment - does Orthodoxy have common homosexuality? This is a big issue for us at the moment as it is very rampant.

as far as advocating it no, the Church is pretty clear. unfortunately, there is a small but very vocal group that is for it.

that said, I know at least one guy who struggles against that passion, and he is open about bearing that cross.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I have to ask, as I'm in a Catholic Church at the moment - does Orthodoxy have common homosexuality? This is a big issue for us at the moment as it is very rampant.

I can't answer that question. I certainly don't get that impression.

What I do know is that having such an inclination or temptation isn't the problem. A person can struggle with this or pretty much any sin and remain on good terms within the Church. But I said "struggle with". The problem for them is that there is no legitimate outlet available. Just as for unmarried folks there is no legitimate outlet for sexual behavior. Chastity is the expectation.

As a "for instance" I know of one fairly young Orthodox person who has that struggle. They are accepted and integrated with no issue. One is probably a very small number compared statistically.

There are people from the broader community (not Orthodox) who like to participate with our parish in festival events, etc. and they are perfectly welcome with no expectations or anything put upon them. I doubt they would become Orthodox though, unless they become willing to begin to struggle against it, because the Church's expectation for its own is to attempt chastity.

I am told monasticism is a common choice for Orthodox people with that struggle.

No one is or should be condemned for their particular weaknesses. I mean, pride is a very serious sin, and we don't look to bar any and all with tendencies toward pride. But we also should not expect the Church to change its teaching on what is and is not sin in order to suit the culture.

It was quite a frequent issue in the society the Church was born into as well (Roman).

 

[Andrei D]

I have to ask, as I'm in a Catholic Church at the moment - does Orthodoxy have common homosexuality? This is a big issue for us at the moment as it is very rampant.

I don't know. As I said this is what I had been stumbling across on various blogs.

But if it is a fact, Lord have mercy, I've never perceived it as "big issue" from where I am and never even heard of at parish priest level.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I don't know. As I said this is what I had been stumbling across on various blogs.

But if it is a fact, Lord have mercy, I've never perceived it as "big issue" from where I am and never even heard of at parish priest level.

I wonder if the blogs represent what Fr Matt meant about the "very vocal" group? There are few Orthodox blogs I read much - mostly from priests/clergy I think. But it comes to mind that Facebook at large (for example) as a snapshot is NOTHING like real Orthodoxy.

 

[Andrei D]

But it comes to mind that Facebook at large (for example) as a snapshot is NOTHING like real Orthodoxy.

Facebook is nothing like the world anyway. When I still frequented Facebook, tried briefly to join a couple of "Orthodox" groups but I couldn't stay there more than a few days. The cake topper was one Romanian group was actually literally fascist (not the antifa definition of fascism, I'm talking the real thing).

 

[~Anastasia~]

Facebook is nothing like the world anyway. When I still frequented Facebook, tried briefly to join a couple of "Orthodox" groups but I couldn't stay there more than a few days. The cake topper was one Romanian group was actually literally fascist (not the antifa definition of fascism, I'm talking the real thing).

Yikes! Wow ...

I kept getting added to groups on FB, and overall they were horrible. They tended to be heavy on inquirers and catechumens, which is terribly sad. What they are getting is NOT Orthodoxy.

I actually like my "Orthodox Facebook" but that's because my feed is strictly pared down to only what I can trust.

(I don't "unfriend" anyone except for something as serious as ongoing outright abuse, so there are people connected to me as well as groups I get added to that I worry some inquirer friend may think I endorse, but I don't generally ever see them.)

Since I found Orthodoxy through online, I wish I could do whatever I can to help anyone else who might be seeking, but except for quotes from Saints I can't point to much good on FB for that purpose.

 

[Markie Boy]

as far as advocating it no, the Church is pretty clear. unfortunately, there is a small but very vocal group that is for it.

that said, I know at least one guy who struggles against that passion, and he is open about bearing that cross.

OK - that doesn't sound like the large numbers in the RCC today, and the cover it up at all costs approach they seem to take.

 

[ArmyMatt]

OK - that doesn't sound like the large numbers in the RCC today, and the cover it up at all costs approach they seem to take.

yeah. that's not to say we don't have them, but I think Orthodoxy's ecclesiology makes it harder for that stuff to stay understood wraps.

 

[Andrei D]

yeah. that's not to say we don't have them, but I think Orthodoxy's ecclesiology makes it harder for that stuff to stay understood wraps.

Also, at least in more ethnic/national jurisdiction we have a top notch information transceiver network composed of elderly, very strong willed women who literally know everything. I mean EVERYTHING. They carry various names depending on the ethnic specifics, but they are the same tier.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Also, at least in more ethnic/national jurisdiction we have a top notch information transceiver network composed of elderly, very strong willed women who literally know everything. I mean EVERYTHING. They carry various names depending on the ethnic specifics, but they are the same tier.

yep. them old ladies are something else.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Also, at least in more ethnic/national jurisdiction we have a top notch information transceiver network composed of elderly, very strong willed women who literally know everything. I mean EVERYTHING. They carry various names depending on the ethnic specifics, but they are the same tier.

Yes, we do!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Also, at least in more ethnic/national jurisdiction we have a top notch information transceiver network composed of elderly, very strong willed women who literally know everything. I mean EVERYTHING. They carry various names depending on the ethnic specifics, but they are the same tier.

Oops which reminds me ... I misspoke and I know of two persons. (One courtesy of the information network - there WAS a purpose and not just gossip.)

I still think two is probably a statistically very small number.

 

[Barney2.0]

There was no strict celibacy in the early papacy, even in the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th century and onwards married Pope and bishops were common in the Roman Latin Church. This is particularly confusing to me personally, I’m not well read of the history of celibacy in both Eastern and Western branches of Christianity, as far as I know Eastern and Oriental Orthodox priests can marry, but not bishops or patriarchs. And nowadays for the Latins this celibacy extends even to the priest for some reason. I’m hoping someone can inform me more on this issue.

 

[Andrei D]

This is particularly confusing to me personally

To me too.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Tonight I read Vespers for Father during our “Serb Fest” parish event. Place was PACKED!!! I saw these two ladies visiting. They were in their fifties or early sixties. Both stalky, wearing men’s haircuts with boots and men’s shirts and they had quite a butch look. Big wallets sticking out and a chain attached. I always see them at stuff like that but they’re not parishioners. For a minute I thought I was at an LGBT parade

.

There are people from the broader community (not Orthodox) who like to participate with our parish in festival events, etc. and they are perfectly welcome with no expectations or anything put upon them. I doubt they would become Orthodox though, unless they become willing to begin to struggle against it, because the Church's expectation for its own is to attempt chastity.

).