Married Popes?

[GoingByzantine]

What I do know is that having such an inclination or temptation isn't the problem. A person can struggle with this or pretty much any sin and remain on good terms within the Church. But I said "struggle with". The problem for them is that there is no legitimate outlet available. Just as for unmarried folks there is no legitimate outlet for sexual behavior. Chastity is the expectation.

You raise a valuable point here that I hadn't previously considered. There really isn't any outlet available for folks with same sex attraction or for folks who are unmarried. It's kind of weird to think that those two groups are in the same boat, but now that you mention it, in many ways they are.

As a single Orthodox person, I know how hard it can be to remain virtuous. It's really difficult. There are no outreach efforts for non-vocational pursuing single people in Orthodoxy, at least that I've found, just as there are not many groups for Orthodox with same sex attraction. Both topics are kind of taboo. For single people who are attracted to the opposite sex you will often hear, "oh you'll find someone eventually". But there is no real help to bring Orthodox singles together, and there are only a smattering of single Orthodox people around. St. Paul wrote that men and women should take each other as wife and husband to prevent sins of the flesh, but that was a different era. Marriages then were arranged. Today they are not. Finding husbands and wives is not an easy task for Orthodox in the West, and many people might fall into sin because of this. While it is their "fault" (for lack of a better word) for for letting temptation get the better of them if they do not remain chaste, it is also somewhat understandable in a cultural context. What choice do single Orthodox have? Do they date secular people who might also lead them into sin? Do they pursue Christians of other persuasions, who may or may not approve of their Orthodox faith? Do they struggle with socially forced chastity? There is no help for them, and not many people want to talk about or understand their struggles. That can be frustrating.

I would imagine for same sex attracted people, the lack of support can be frustrating as well. Though the church cannot condone unholy relationships, it can still try to minister to the needs of these people. This is especially the case for the ones who are open to the teachings of the church, and for those who might struggle from same sex attraction, but who also have inclinations towards the opposite sex.

 

[~Anastasia~]

You raise a valuable point here that I hadn't previously considered. There really isn't any outlet available for folks with same sex attraction or for folks who are unmarried. It's kind of weird to think that those two groups are in the same boat, but now that you mention it, in many ways they are.

As a single Orthodox person, I know how hard it can be to remain virtuous. It's really difficult. There are no outreach efforts for non-vocational pursuing single people in Orthodoxy, at least that I've found, just as there are not many groups for Orthodox with same sex attraction. Both topics are kind of taboo. For single people who are attracted to the opposite sex you will often hear, "oh you'll find someone eventually". But there is no real help to bring Orthodox singles together, and there are only a smattering of single Orthodox people around. St. Paul wrote that men and women should take each other as wife and husband to prevent sins of the flesh, but that was a different era. Marriages then were arranged. Today they are not. Finding husbands and wives is not an easy task for Orthodox in the West, and many people might fall into sin because of this. While it is their "fault" (for lack of a better word) for for letting temptation get the better of them if they do not remain chaste, it is also somewhat understandable in a cultural context. What choice do single Orthodox have? Do they date secular people who might also lead them into sin? Do they pursue Christians of other persuasions, who may or may not approve of their Orthodox faith? Do they struggle with socially forced chastity? There is no help for them, and not many people want to talk about or understand their struggles. That can be frustrating.

I would imagine for same sex attracted people, the lack of support can be frustrating as well. Though the church cannot condone unholy relationships, it can still try to minister to the needs of these people. This is especially the case for the ones who are open to the teachings of the church, and for those who might struggle from same sex attraction, but who also have inclinations towards the opposite sex.

You raise some good points. And I do often see these two groups as having similar struggles. It's just that one has hope of eventually solving their "problem" while the other doesn't, within their current inclination.

I do think we should do more to help Orthodox singles meet each other. What's ironic is that there are "not many" in the sense that it's hard to meet one they want to marry, yet there are "many" - enough for it to be a significant problem - in that boat.

I look at our parish and we had about four teens regularly in Church this year - three of whom graduated so that will leave us with an age gap. I can't count the number of preschoolers we have though - they need two classrooms. I wonder what that's going to look like for our young people in 15-20 years.

But I think we should have ways of them meeting each other. I have this much in mind for the sake of my goddaughter too. There are a handful of young single men connected to our parish (some are away at college at times) but none of them are serious enough about the faith to suit her, except one who is perhaps a bit too young for her. It's not just two people, but two who are willing to accept each other and so on. Though I think if we had a good appreciation of the faith and what marriage means, and we applied ourselves to that, good marriages could more easily be formed.

(That said, we had a bit of an irony I've never seen - an engagement ceremony in our parish yesterday. I wondered to myself if I was right, that the couple would now be required to get an ecclesiastical divorce if the decide not to marry - so they are pretty committed now I think!)

Those who are same-sex attracted are in a worse position. Their legitimate choices are only chastity or to change their attraction if that is possible. Though I'm not presuming to judge if they fail between those two choices - that's surely between them and God. I think of a young relative of mine and only hope that he can manage somehow or that God will have mercy on him. (I can't discuss it with him at present because he doesn't tell even family, and really appears to be continent.)

 

[GoingByzantine]

You raise some good points. And I do often see these two groups as having similar struggles. It's just that one has hope of eventually solving their "problem" while the other doesn't, within their current inclination.

I do think we should do more to help Orthodox singles meet each other. What's ironic is that there are "not many" in the sense that it's hard to meet one they want to marry, yet there are "many" - enough for it to be a significant problem - in that boat.

I look at our parish and we had about four teens regularly in Church this year - three of whom graduated so that will leave us with an age gap. I can't count the number of preschoolers we have though - they need two classrooms. I wonder what that's going to look like for our young people in 15-20 years.

But I think we should have ways of them meeting each other. I have this much in mind for the sake of my goddaughter too. There are a handful of young single men connected to our parish (some are away at college at times) but none of them are serious enough about the faith to suit her, except one who is perhaps a bit too young for her. It's not just two people, but two who are willing to accept each other and so on. Though I think if we had a good appreciation of the faith and what marriage means, and we applied ourselves to that, good marriages could more easily be formed.

(That said, we had a bit of an irony I've never seen - an engagement ceremony in our parish yesterday. I wondered to myself if I was right, that the couple would now be required to get an ecclesiastical divorce if the decide not to marry - so they are pretty committed now I think!)

Those who are same-sex attracted are in a worse position. Their legitimate choices are only chastity or to change their attraction if that is possible. Though I'm not presuming to judge if they fail between those two choices - that's surely between them and God. I think of a young relative of mine and only hope that he can manage somehow or that God will have mercy on him. (I can't discuss it with him at present because he doesn't tell even family, and really appears to be continent.)

I wonder if there are any saints who struggled against same sex afflictions within Orthodoxy? It seems like every group of people has that one go too saint who they can turn too. Perhaps there is someone out there for this group of young folks as well.

I guess I've never really paid much attention to this cohort in the past, but now that I think about it, it makes me really sad. I wish I could do something to help them...

Anyways, all of this is probably a topic for a different thread. I've diverted things enough.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I wonder if there are any saints who struggled against same sex afflictions within Orthodoxy? It seems like every group of people has that one go too saint who they can turn too. Perhaps there is someone out there for this group of young folks as well.

I guess I've never really paid much attention to this cohort in the past, but now that I think about it, it makes me really sad. I wish I could do something to help them...

Anyways, all of this is probably a topic for a different thread. I've diverted things enough.

I suspect there are such Saints. It may be that it wasn't often acknowledged though ...

I've heard suggestions but it would feel like gossiping if I shared them because I don't really know.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I wonder if there are any saints who struggled against same sex afflictions within Orthodoxy? It seems like every group of people has that one go too saint who they can turn too. Perhaps there is someone out there for this group of young folks as well.

I guess I've never really paid much attention to this cohort in the past, but now that I think about it, it makes me really sad. I wish I could do something to help them...

Anyways, all of this is probably a topic for a different thread. I've diverted things enough.

Fr Seraphim Rose, who is considered by many to be a saint, struggled with that passion.