Mark of the Beast

[Freedm]

...it relies on only a couple of words like "near" in the description of when these things would unfold...

You say preterism relies on words like "near". Well I find this argument very interesting because you're not refuting preterism in any way by saying that. You're only pointing out the best argument in favour of it.

The book actually tells us four times that these events are near.

Revelation 1:1
...what must soon take place

Revelation 1:3
...because the time is near

Revelation 22:10
...because the time is near

Revelation 22:20
...“Yes, I am coming soon.”

So when you use this argument against preterism you're literally saying: "I don't believe in preterism because it relies on the words of scripture".

And again, I will point out the prophesies of Daniel 8 which were fulfilled less than 400 years later, and which were said to be "in the distant future". So how, if 400 years is the distant future, can 2000 years be "soon"? This fact alone makes preterism the only interpretation of Revelation that makes sense, and for anyone to convince me I'm wrong this specific issue has to be addressed by more than just "you rely on a few words" when those "few words" are not merely scripture, but in fact the very words of John given to him by God, the angel of God and even Jesus himself. I can not ignore those words.

 

[Freedm]

But look where we are now with COVID-19, world-wide hunger, wars and rumors of wars, a recent Hamas attack on Israel, alligators and global warming, the threat of nuclear armageddon on multiple fronts such as China, Russia, North Korea, Iran, and others who aspire to attack and destroy the United States and Israel.

If you look back through history, is there any time in history in which you would rather be living? Or has the world only gotten more Christ like, more caring, more loving, more compassionate and more humane throughout the centuries? Sure, there are still hard times and bad people, but compare it to history and you'll have to agree that things were much worse in our past. This is because the kingdom of Christ is growing and will eventually envelop the entire world, as prophesied.

Daniel 2:35
But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

 

[Freedm]

The only mention is in chapter 20. The other two passages do not claim Satan was released.

Tim, I'm curious. Can you tell me how your beliefs and your understanding of scripture has changed over the years? What are some examples of things you used to believe, but you no longer believe? Or things that you've learned over the years that might've initially surprised you? I'm just curious how it happened that you might change your mind on something. I'd love to hear your story.

 

[Taodeching]

Well the 1000 year Millennium is one thing that is not now.

Nor will it ever be, it is not literal

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

If you look back through history, is there any time in history in which you would rather be living? Or has the world only gotten more Christ like, more caring, more loving, more compassionate and more humane throughout the centuries? Sure, there are still hard times and bad people, but compare it to history and you'll have to agree that things were much worse in our past. This is because the kingdom of Christ is growing and will eventually envelop the entire world, as prophesied.

Daniel 2:35
But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

The world has not gotten any more Christ like for sure in at least the last 200 years. The language of today's youth, the attack on the US capital, the COVID killing millions all over the world, nearly continuous war since the turn of the century. AZ Tozer's Pursuit of God, he compares how bad the church has become in the 1940s, and its gone way down since that time. Riots in the street, filth on television and in the theater, church membership dropping like a rock, moral decline and all this relativism that for example Oprah Winfrey insists of many ways to heaven and that Jesus is not the only way. Our generation is the most taxed, over worked, in debt, and suffers more mental health problems than the last generation, and the baby boomers recognized how far away from God they had fallen since the Silent Generation. At least in the USA, we are further from God than in any time in history, including the Pilgrims until now. Islam wants to take over and rule the war, and by most estimates, by the year 2035 Islam will pass Chrisitianity and that grossly overestimates Christianity by counting entire nations. Sure we have modern technology and people live longer, but we are less happy, less fulfilled, less churched, less Christian, more self-centered, and worse people than we have ever been in the history of the US broad based and most likely world wide.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Nor will it ever be, it is not literal

It is literal according to all but Idealists based on my rather weak understanding. Some think we are already in the millenium, but I think it is yet to come according to Scripture. I'm not sure on eschatology but I know a lot of very smart, very educated people with doctorates in theology who have studied eschatology their entire lives who hold to each of the different interpretations such as Dr. Kenneth Gentry for Preterism, others for Historicism and Idealism, and many to Futurism including Premillenialists and/or Dispensationalists, so making a bold proclamation that there is no millenium is saying you know more than these highly educated men and women of God who have devoted their lives and have doctorates in divinity and theology who each make powerful arguments for their respective interpretations. Try reading Steve Gregg's 4 views of Revelation and you might gain some respect and new understanding like me about the views of others. The truth is, none of us know for complete sure except the Lord, Father, and Holy Spirit.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

You say preterism relies on words like "near". Well I find this argument very interesting because you're not refuting preterism in any way by saying that. You're only pointing out the best argument in favour of it.

The book actually tells us four times that these events are near.

Revelation 1:1
...what must soon take place

Revelation 1:3
...because the time is near

Revelation 22:10
...because the time is near

Revelation 22:20
...“Yes, I am coming soon.”

So when you use this argument against preterism you're literally saying: "I don't believe in preterism because it relies on the words of scripture".

And again, I will point out the prophesies of Daniel 8 which were fulfilled less than 400 years later, and which were said to be "in the distant future". So how, if 400 years is the distant future, can 2000 years be "soon"? This fact alone makes preterism the only interpretation of Revelation that makes sense, and for anyone to convince me I'm wrong this specific issue has to be addressed by more than just "you rely on a few words" when those "few words" are not merely scripture, but in fact the very words of John given to him by God, the angel of God and even Jesus himself. I can not ignore those words.

A lot of people do not believe that Daniel's prophecies have been fulfilled, so that argument is not settled at all. The verses you cite are the key few words to truly support a preterist view, and who besides God really knows what God himself considers near or soon? We are talking about the omnipresent, omnipotent creator of the entire universe that has lived forever and will continue living forever. What is the ratio of 40,000 years divided by infinity? How is that different than the 4 minutes divided by infinity? Both numbers are zero. It doesn't matter what we think of as short or near, because it was the Lord talking in these passages, not humans who had a beginning and only live a truly "short" period of time by divine measures of infinity.

 

[Taodeching]

It is literal according to all but Idealists based on my rather weak understanding. Some think we are already in the millenium, but I think it is yet to come according to Scripture. I'm not sure on eschatology but I know a lot of very smart, very educated people with doctorates in theology who have studied eschatology their entire lives who hold to each of the different interpretations such as Dr. Kenneth Gentry for Preterism, others for Historicism and Idealism, and many to Futurism including Premillenialists and/or Dispensationalists, so making a bold proclamation that there is no millenium is saying you know more than these highly educated men and women of God who have devoted their lives and have doctorates in divinity and theology who each make powerful arguments for their respective interpretations. Try reading Steve Gregg's 4 views of Revelation and you might gain some respect and new understanding like me about the views of others. The truth is, none of us know for complete sure except the Lord, Father, and Holy Spirit.

Experts can be wrong, just because they say something does not make it right. It is the failure of experts when we look to them without thinking ourselves. The evidence is in Revelation -things that are near. It is well known that Christians were being prosecuted at that time and there is no where it says all this will happen in a thousands of years.

So yes I do know more then the futurist "experts" because they approach the Bible from a modern idea not trying to understand the culture or why it was written, or anything of that nature. Futurism wold disappear if people stopped placing modern day events on Scripture and realize that Scripture was written in a different place, time, and culture from our own and stop assuming Scripture was written to us.

So yes I can say quite competently that Revelations was not written for any modern period and there will be no millennium, further I can say that the book was quite symbolic so as John would not b found out and the early believes would understand. Revelations is a book of discipline for seven Churches and a book of hope for those enduring prosecution under Rome, it is not written to us about any future but it is for us.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

If you look back through history, is there any time in history in which you would rather be living? Or has the world only gotten more Christ like, more caring, more loving, more compassionate and more humane throughout the centuries? Sure, there are still hard times and bad people, but compare it to history and you'll have to agree that things were much worse in our past. This is because the kingdom of Christ is growing and will eventually envelop the entire world, as prophesied.

Daniel 2:35
But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

Do you really see Christianity growing? I see many charts like this and no I'm not the least happy it about and I do not vouch for the source as its secular, but I have seen very similar data presented by missionaries of the Southern Baptist Church, with the growth in Islam looking like the opposite of this trend (growth not decline).

The GOP (Rightly) Fears America’s Churchless Majority

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Do you have any idea of how my CHRISTIANS in the United States have a biblical world view according to the Barna study? These aren't things like disagreements over infant baptism or communion or qualifications for deacons and leaders of the church, but fundamental precepts like is Jesus the Son of God. I cannot see the world becoming more Christlike as some of you seem to hold, when i see things like this all the time: Competing Worldviews Influence Today’s Christians - Barna Group

I even taught the "Truth Project" to Christians to clarify things for them, and I never cease to be amazed at how far off some can be in the very basics of our faith.

 

[Taodeching]

Do you really see Christianity growing?

There is more than the USA, in other places Christianity is growing.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Experts can be wrong, just because they say something does not make it right. It is the failure of experts when we look to them without thinking ourselves. The evidence is in Revelation -things that are near. It is well known that Christians were being prosecuted at that time and there is no where it says all this will happen in a thousands of years.

So yes I do know more then the futurist "experts" because they approach the Bible from a modern idea not trying to understand the culture or why it was written, or anything of that nature. Futurism wold disappear if people stopped placing modern day events on Scripture and realize that Scripture was written in a different place, time, and culture from our own and stop assuming Scripture was written to us.

So yes I can say quite competently that Revelations was not written for any modern period and there will be no millennium, further I can say that the book was quite symbolic so as John would not b found out and the early believes would understand. Revelations is a book of discipline for seven Churches and a book of hope for those enduring prosecution under Rome, it is not written to us about any future but it is for us.

You are certainly entitled to have an opinion! I'm a bit mixed up in your eschatology thoughts. Scripture seems to me thus far in my study of eschatology to suggest a 7 year period of tribulation that begins with the rapture of the church, then half way through those 7 years an abandoned Israel (I assume abandoned by the USA too) is forced into a treaty with a yet to be revealed antichrist who makes a fake peace agreement, then attacks Israel in force and begins the last half of tribulation known as the "Great Tribulation" such as has never happened before nor will ever happen again, then at the end Jesus will return in full view of the entire planet and every knee will bow and every mouth will confess that Jesus is Lord, and He will cast Satan into a pit for 1,000 years while believers in immortal bodies will reign with Christ on earth (as his servants, not equals) until for whatever reason I do not comprehend Satan is let loose one last time, the battle of Gog and Magog is fought, and then the Great White Throne judgement occurs, followed by Jesus "making all things new" with a new heaven and new earth, perhaps unlike anything we have today, perhaps bigger than the size of the entire solar system, for God will be our light, and we will not need a sun or moon any longer and we will be his children and He will be our God forever and forever.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

There is more than the USA, in other places Christianity is growing.

In a few places but worldwide it is not growing but just moving around and by 2035 Islam is projected to be the world's leading religion, unless of course God changes things which I pray for every day.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Here is the one place I can find that is worldwide. Christianity is moving around, but Islam is growing, and while this shows a net balance, I've heard that they typically decide if a country is mostly Christian or Muslim, then accredit that to every member of that country, so the USA would show up in this data as 330M Christians, which we know cannot be true.
The Future of World Religions: Population Growth Projections, 2010-2050
The important point is this does NOT suggest that Christianity is going to takeover the world. If anything, Islam will, but I feel pretty confident God will intervene in world history before we get to 2050.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

This is the chart I've seen from missionaries before:

The Future of World Religions: Population Growth Projections, 2010-2050

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Thus the idea that the USA or the world is going to become total Christian does not align with all the studies and data, both inside the church and outside the church by source, unless GOD makes it happen, which I have faith HE WILL.

 

[Taodeching]

You are certainly entitled to have an opinion! I'm a bit mixed up in your eschatology thoughts. Scripture seems to me thus far in my study of eschatology to suggest a 7 year period of tribulation that begins with the rapture of the church, then half way through those 7 years an abandoned Israel (I assume abandoned by the USA too) is forced into a treaty with a yet to be revealed antichrist who makes a fake peace agreement, then attacks Israel in force and begins the last half of tribulation known as the "Great Tribulation" such as has never happened before nor will ever happen again, then at the end Jesus will return in full view of the entire planet and every knee will bow and every mouth will confess that Jesus is Lord, and He will cast Satan into a pit for 1,000 years while believers in immortal bodies will reign with Christ on earth (as his servants, not equals) until for whatever reason I do not comprehend Satan is let loose one last time, the battle of Gog and Magog is fought, and then the Great White Throne judgement occurs, followed by Jesus "making all things new" with a new heaven and new earth, perhaps unlike anything we have today, perhaps bigger than the size of the entire solar system, for God will be our light, and we will not need a sun or moon any longer and we will be his children and He will be our God forever and forever.

That's because instead of looking at the Bible with the idea of the culture it was written in you as well as many others place a modern idea upon the Bible, which is disingenuous to Scripture. As one author Clark H. Pinnock says "The lesson to be learned here is the principle of allowing the Bible to say what it wants to say and not impose our imperialistic agendas onto it; our exegesis ought to let the text speak and the chips fall where they may".

Instead of doing that we place our ideas and agenda on it and forget when it was written, to whom it was written, the culture it was written in. Here is a great video about looking at Scriptures properly called Introduction: Cultural Context of the Biblical World

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

That's because instead of looking at the Bible with the idea of the culture it was written in you as well as many others place a modern idea upon the Bible, which is disingenuous to Scripture. As one author Clark H. Pinnock says "The lesson to be learned here is the principle of allowing the Bible to say what it wants to say and not impose our imperialistic agendas onto it; our exegesis ought to let the text speak and the chips fall where they may".

Instead of doing that we place our ideas and agenda on it and forget when it was written, to whom it was written, the culture it was written in. Here is a great video about looking at Scriptures properly called Introduction: Cultural Context of the Biblical World

Thank you for the video and I will be watching it tonight!

 

[Taodeching]

Thank you for the video and I will be watching it tonight!

Your welcome

 

[Ligurian]

What's your point exactly?

Matthew.24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
Daniel.22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

In other words, Daniel becomes unsealed because/when the book of Revelation is given to Apostle John by Jesus.

Satan opens the pit, if you are referring to the 5th Trumpet, not released. In 11, Satan kills the 2 witnesses 3.5 days prior to Armageddon. Only after 1000 years later, is Satan released only once in history.

The kingdom beginning is extended 42 months, if the week of the sound of the 7th Trumpet is split in half. If Satan is not allowed 42 months, then the kingdom starts that week. Armageddon only happens if the 42 months happens. Babylon of wickedness is still destroyed that week in the winepress of God's Wrath. The events are still presented in chronological order. Some events should never happen, but they are still prophecied because of the potential for them to happen.

By saying that a Book of Prophecy--given by Jesus to an Apostle who was with Him from the beginning--can be "not released" or "potential"... I kinda feel sorry for you. Might just as well take a magic-marker to this Book of Prophecy. Pretending that Jesus might potentially be a false prophet... is as bad as thinking not all Pharisees are condemned by Matthew 23.

Revelation.22:14 Blessed [are] they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent Mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

People who avoid keeping the commandments of Jesus will be very surprised when Jesus tells them He never knew them... but they wouldn't be if they'd read the last chapter in the book.

You're proving my point. Yes, Satan is released only once, but it is mentioned three times. This proves that Revelation repeats itself. It's not simply one long story.

Jesus, the prophet of this Book of Prophecy... gives warning after warning, and catalogues the nature of the hardhearted who refuse to repent no matter what... until eventually the 1/3 seals become 3/3 vials.

Satan is released after the war in Heaven against Michael... he comes down to earth wounded from that fight, to become the little horn of the first beast.

Revelation 13 says the little horn of Daniel is the mouth/controler of the first beast.

The antichrist/abomination at the temple directs the worship of Satan.

The mark/idol makes these Satan-worshippers those that kill the saints and prophets and therefore makes them worthy of the vials of the wrath of God, in Revelation 16:6.

Babylon/Jerusalem/Pharisees are those that kill the prophets and saints, and hold the cup of abominations: spiritual-idolotry, which becomes blood-guilt, just like Jesus says:

John.8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love Me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do ye not understand My speech? [even] because ye cannot hear My word. 44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

It's all been one solid warning siren since "In the beginning" was written. But people think God has changed His mind about what He requires from mankind, regardless of the fact that God tells us He is testing us, time after time. So man, in his arrogance, thinks God has separate programs, run by even the most-often reviled-by-God criminal element. Jesus warns us to Beware the Doctrine of the Pharisees. Do we listen? Do we think that the Jesus Prophecies can be made into a "potential"... when the Father has told us from the beginning that false prophets will be killed? So that even if what they prophesied is accompanied by signs and wonders [forgetting that the Egyptians had signs and wonders called magic; and that the Pharisees' children drove out demons by the power of the head-demon, according to Jesus], that if the prophecy/doctrine doesn't match what Jesus says, then it is by definition the false doctrine from a false prophet.

____________
The Mark of the Beast

"Engravings that resemble the six-pointed Star of David were found on circular Khazar relics and bronze mirrors from Sarkel and Khazarian grave fields in Upper Saltov. However, rather than having been made by Jews, these appear to be shamanistic sun discs." (Brook 2010, pp. 113, 122–123 n.148)
Khazars - Wikipedia

Most of the tribes that we hear about are only proselytes... neither 2-tribe-Judah nor 10-tribe-Israel.
The Lost Tribes A Myth Suggestions Towards Rewriting Hebrew History : Allen Howard Godbey : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

I have a different theory about Peleg than Godbey has.
Noah (Vol.1) - Pt.II, CH.4