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Marilyn McCord Adams and the Problem of Hell

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Theists have believed G for thousands of years while rejecting 1-3.

Zippy, you know as well as I do there are only so many options here.

1. You show the argument is not valid. Adams was a professional, but if you can show it is not valid, then I see a dissertation in your future.

2. You reject one of the premises, and thereby show that argument is not sound.

3. You insert a premise, e.g. free will, and thereby negate the conclusion.

4. If you don't like the form of the argument, re-frame it and go back to options 1-3

Which is it? Pick your poison.
 
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Not really. What's odd is that someone would hold that G proves 1-3.

4. P
5. P -> Q
6. Q​

Saying that G is the reason to believe 1-3 is like saying (4) is the reason to believe (5). That's just an elementary failure of logic. A conditional is never justified by the mere statement of its antecedent. Rather, both the conditional and its antecedent are premises of an argument, and both need to be defended.

On your reasoning we should just skip (1-3) and say, "G, therefore ~H." That's instructive because it highlights the fact that the OP is an assertion, not an argument. It's just the bare assertion that, "God wouldn't send anyone to Hell!"

...And that's instructive because Universalism reflects the Zeitgeist, and in many cases it is held on the basis of Zeitgeist-sentiment rather than any kind of argument.

My apologies. I posted before I saw you would go for validity. Best of wishes on your dissertation. :)
 
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zippy2006

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Zippy, you know as well as I do there are only so many options here.

1. You show the argument is not valid. Adams was a professional, but if you can show it is not valid, then I see a dissertation in your future.

2. You reject one of the premises, and thereby show that argument is not sound.

3. You insert a premise, e.g. free will, and thereby negate the conclusion.

4. If you don't like the form of the argument, re-frame it and go back to options 1-3

Which is it? Pick your poison.

What I've pointed out is that it's not an argument. If (1-3) is entailed by G then there is only one premise: G. Arguments require at least two premises.

My apologies. I posted before I saw you would go for validity. Best of wishes on your dissertation. :)

You have to decide if (1-3) are premises or not. If they are then you have to defend them. If they aren't then there is just an assertion, not an argument.

A dissertation? It doesn't require a doctorate to know your way around a simple modus ponens argument. It's literally the simplest form of argument that exists.
 
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zippy2006

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Adams was a professional, but if you can show it is not valid, then I see a dissertation in your future.

It should be clear that my criticism is of the OP, not of Adams. Presumably Adams considers (1-3) premises and defends them in her paper rather than stopping at "G". From my very first post:

I would encourage you to paraphrase her argument and give some indication of why she thinks 1-3 are true.
 
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Arguments require at least two premises.

There are two premises: G and H. You have a certain kind of omni God, and humans consigned to eternal torment. Those are the conditions. Given those conditions, then consider 1-3. Now at that point the argument is deductive. You can fuss about validity if that is your main contention, and I won't try to dissuade you. If you want to talk about the soundness of the argument, then pick an omni or add a premise.

It should be clear that my criticism is of the OP, not of Adams. Presumably Adams considers (1-3) premises and defends them in her paper rather than stopping at "G". From my very first post:

Clarity is always good.
 
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Adam’s argument is irrefutable. Any omnipotent and omniscient being that would create an eternal hell would not be benevolent.

I don't think I would say it is irrefutable, but I do think it has a lot going for it. You don't think free will throws a wrench in it so that evil is an unhappy side-effect?
 
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zippy2006

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There are two premises: G and H. You have a certain kind of omni God, and humans consigned to eternal torment. Those are the conditions. Given those conditions, then consider 1-3. Now at that point the argument is deductive. You can fuss about validity if that is your main contention, and I won't try to dissuade you. If you want to talk about the soundness of the argument, then pick an omni or add a premise.

I think you're mistaken all around. First, the OP. Here is a simplified version of your argument from the OP:

1. God exists and is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent
2. If (1), then God would not send anyone to Hell
3. Therefore, there is no Hell
Now in any argument premises have to be defended. This is especially true in very simple arguments with few inferences (such as this one). In refusing to defend premise (2), your OP is reduced to a mere assertion. It's literally not an argument. Again, to say (2) is self-evidently entailed by (1) is the same thing as saying that you can jump right from (1) to (3) without needing (2). But if (1-3) are self-evidently entailed by G, then why in the world are we pretending to include (1-3) as premises in an argument?

Now let's look at Adams:

There are two premises: G and H. You have a certain kind of omni God, and humans consigned to eternal torment.

No, G and H are not premises in Adam's paper. In Adam's paper the only premises are (1-3) as stated in the OP. G and H are merely propositions, and Adam's goal is to prove that they are logically incompossible. Below is the structure of Adam's argument. I will use her own identifiers, I and III, rather than G and H:

Propositions:
I. God exists, and is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good.
II. Evil exists.
III. Some created persons will be consigned to hell forever.
Argument:
1. If God existed and were omnipotent, then God would be able to avoid (III).
2. If God existed and were omniscient, then God would know how to avoid (III).
3. If God existed and were perfectly good, then God would want to avoid (III).
4. Therefore, if (I), not (III).
I, II, and III are propositions; 1, 2, and 3 are premises; and 4 is the conclusion. Technically the conclusion for incompossibility is the biconditional [ (I) iff ~(III) ], but that is only a minor mistake on her part, as she is primarily concerned with rejecting (III).

You can fuss about validity if that is your main contention, and I won't try to dissuade you. If you want to talk about the soundness of the argument, then pick an omni or add a premise.

No, I am not fussing about validity. In my very first post I argued against the truth of the premises, but since the premises are just assertions with no support there is really nothing to argue against. That's why I said that you ought to give us some reason to believe the premises (1-3). You refused to defend the premises and claimed they were straightforwardly entailed by "premise" G. That is, you committed the fallacy of begging the question. Adams knows that (1-3) are bald premises that have been denied for over 2,000 years. That's why she spends 24 pages trying to defend them. You, on the other hand, think they can simply be asserted without any defense and that this counts as an argument.
 
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To demonstrate a mistake and prevent Christians from being misled by a non-argument that is simply an appeal to the Zeitgeist.

Now we're getting somewhere. Do you think I have an agenda?
 
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zippy2006

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Now we're getting somewhere. Do you think I have an agenda?

No, I just think you're being swept away by the Zeitgeist. But your recent posts, including the OP, are not arguments. They aren't philosophically sturdy. So I am pointing that out. No rationally serious person could give an argument with three premises and refuse to give the slightest defense of any of the three premises.
 
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No, I just think you're being swept away by the Zeitgeist. But your recent posts, including the OP, are not arguments. They aren't philosophically sturdy. So I am pointing that out. No rationally serious person could give an argument with three premises and refuse to give the slightest defense of any of the three premises.

I see that approach as an easy way out of dealing with the issues, but I understand your adamant stance against it. It's frightening to think God could be that merciful. What power would the Church have without fear?
 
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zippy2006

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I see that approach as an easy way out of dealing with the issues, but I understand your adamant stance against it. It's frightening to think God could be that merciful. What power would the Church have without fear?

Again, evasion. Rather than engaging in argument you appeal to an ad hominem that claims that my beliefs are based in fear. It's like talking to InterestedAtheist.
 
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public hermit

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Again, evasion. Rather than engaging in argument you appeal to an ad hominem that claims that my beliefs are based in fear.

Okay, do you think it is even possible for God to save all?
 
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public hermit

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It's like talking to InterestedAtheist.

Zippy, I'm not an atheist. I'm not your enemy, but I can see that you think I am. I have the same faith you have.
 
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zippy2006

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Zippy, I'm not an atheist. I'm not your enemy, but I can see that you think I am. I have the same faith you have.

Here's a question for you: If Adams is right about the incompossibility of G and H, do you think people who hold to H worship the same God as people who hold to G? Presumably she would say that people who hold to H worship a rather different God than people who hold to (3) and to the "perfectly good" God.
 
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Here's a question for you: If Adams is right about the incompossibility of G and H, do you think people who hold to H worship the same God as people who hold to G? Presumably she would say that people who hold to H worship a rather different God than people who hold to (3) and to the "perfectly good" God.

I'm going to say they worship the same God, mostly because God transcends all our concepts, even the ones that are fairly accurate.

Edit: I should say, God transcends even our best concepts.
 
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Halbhh

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I think I see what you're saying, but wouldn't that be #1, power? God can be good and want salvation, but for a world where human freedom is the ability to do otherwise, God is limited in ability, i.e. can't save the unwilling. Or, am I misunderstanding your point?
Well, God being able doesn't mean he'd create us without an ability to choose. (we are like Him, as Christ said). He'd not force us either. When I say 'free will' I mean that a soul is free: allowed to choose its life, direction, thus ultimate fate. So, a person can choose to avoid the light, and choose to remain away, preferring their wrongful things. God not forcing us doesn't imply he's unable to do anything, but that he respects us, and wants those that freely choose to turn to Him.
 
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zippy2006

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I'm going to say they worship the same God, mostly because God transcends all our concepts, even the ones that are fairly accurate.

Does that mean that there is no possible conceptual formulation that could lead you to believe that someone worships a different God?

The reason we're in the "Controversial Christian Theology" forum is because Universalism has historically been viewed as a Christian heresy, which is to say that the historical Church has consistently concluded that Universalists worship a different God and hold to a different faith.

I think that consistent intuition of the sensus fidelium is essentially correct, and would be confirmed by anthropologists and philosophers of religion. At the very least, it is undeniable that the god of historical Christianity and the god of Universalists are drastically different.
 
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