Marilyn McCord Adams and the Problem of Hell

[public hermit]

Marilyn McCord Adams, who was a philosopher and Episcopal priest, developed an argument to refute ECT (eternal conscious torment). Her argument is candidly appropriated from the logical problem of evil by J.L. Mackie.

She begins with two premises
G: God exists, and is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good
H: Some created persons will be consigned to hell forever

The argument:
1. If God existed and were omnipotent, then God would be able to avoid H
2. If God existed and were omniscient, then God would know how to avoid H
3. If God existed and were perfectly good, then God would want to avoid H
Conclusion: If G; then not-H
(If God exists, and is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good; then it is not the case that some created persons will be consigned to hell forever)

This is my first time seeing this argument, so I am curious what y'all think.

https://cpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/campu...l-A-Problem-of-Evil-for-Christians-pslyys.pdf

Marilyn McCord Adams - Wikipedia

 

[Davy]

Man's reasoning is not God's. End of that argument.

Isa 55:7-11
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon.

8 For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the LORD.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.

10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

11 So shall My word be that goeth forth out of My mouth: it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
KJV

 

[Sabertooth]

This is my first time seeing this argument, so I am curious what y'all think.

It doesn't square with Jesus saying that Hell was originally created for "the Devil & his angels" (not people) [Matthew 25:41].

 

[public hermit]

Man's reasoning is not God's. End of that argument.

Isa 55:7-11
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon.

8 For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the LORD.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.

10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

11 So shall My word be that goeth forth out of My mouth: it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
KJV

Ha! You haven't even engaged the argument, passage poster. I know this can be hard and challenging, but try to address the argument. Which premise or premises do you reject? If you have a passage that shows why a premise is erroneous, good enough. Otherwise, yeah, we all know the bible.

 

[public hermit]

It doesn't square with Jesus saying that Hell was originally created for "the Devil & his angels" (not people) [Matthew 25:41].

You mean eternal conscious torment for persons doesn't square with Matt. 25:41?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Marilyn McCord Adams, who was a philosopher and Episcopal priest, developed an argument to refute ECT (eternal conscious torment). Her argument is candidly appropriated from the logical problem of evil by J.L. Mackie.

She begins with two premises
G: God exists, and is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good
H: Some created persons will be consigned to hell forever

The argument:
1. If God existed and were omnipotent, then God would be able to avoid H
2. If God existed and were omniscient, then God would know how to avoid H
3. If God existed and were perfectly good, then God would want to avoid H
Conclusion: If G; then not-H
(If God exists, and is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good; then it is not the case that some created persons will be consigned to hell forever)

This is my first time seeing this argument, so I am curious what y'all think.

https://cpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/campu...l-A-Problem-of-Evil-for-Christians-pslyys.pdf

Marilyn McCord Adams - Wikipedia

The corollary seems to be that God MUST force everyone into heaven, even those for whom being forced into heaven against their will would be a living hell. We are all forcibly predestined into heaven, even against our wills. Or we are all forcibly predestined to will to go to heaven. God has no respect for our choices in such a scenario.

 

[Sabertooth]

You mean eternal conscious torment for persons doesn't square with Matt. 25:41?

No, that God cannot exist in the same reality with such a hell [ECT], when He, Himself, announced its existence and its (original) purpose, the eternal punishment of fallen angels (which God isn't).

Is God allowed to create a place of eternal punishment for them?
Is He allowed to expand its purpose to include unrepentant humans, if He so chooses (and has clearly stated)?
[Her] argument that Hell was not compatible with God's reality could have only been true before the angels' rebellion, since it was their leader who orchestrated the human Fall.

 

[public hermit]

The corollary seems to be that God MUST force everyone into heaven, even those for whom being forced into heaven against their will would be a living hell. We are all forcibly predestined into heaven, even against our wills. Or we are all forcibly predestined to will to go to heaven. God has no respect for our choices in such a scenario.

I think that might be the most useful reply. If you're familiar with Mackie's logical problem of evil, perhaps Plantinga's free will defense will work here too since Adam's and Mackie's arguments are similar.

 

[public hermit]

No, that God cannot exist in the same reality with such a hell [ECT], when He, Himself, announced its existence and its (original) purpose, the eternal punishment of fallen angels (which God isn't).

Is God allowed to create a place of eternal punishment for them?
Is He allowed to expand its purpose to include unrepentant humans, if He so chooses (and has clearly stated)?
[Her] argument that Hell was not compatible with God's reality could have only been true before the angels' rebellion, since it was their leader who fomented the human Fall.

That's interesting. Can anything exist without God? I guess you're saying God sustains hell without being present?

You don't seem to think hell is necessary, which means it's created, I guess? Must God send people to hell, or can God save them like he did Saul (Paul)?

Just curious, is there any of the premises of the argument that you reject? Do you think the argument is valid? Sound? Or, are you just saying the argument holds pre-angelic fall?

 

[public hermit]

FYI: Adam's full argument is attached as a PDF at the bottom of the OP. It's worth a read if this subject is of interest.

 

[Jesus is my Superhero]

Genesis 9 seems to suggest that a man's life is in His blood.
Jesus is the Eternal life giver according to scriptures, (Revelation), which is a gift.
I suspect that the penalty for rebellion and pride, which are Satan's original sins is eternal death for us humans and not eternal torture.

This is all I have.

 

[mindfulzen]

This was like advanced math, and I disagree with the equation I became a bit sleepy from reading it. How can all go to heaven, when some have hate? There should be no hate in heaven. And you must will it, you are not forced, we do get a choice. I do not believe that the leader of Germany in 1945 entered heaven. Or communists who reject and ban christianity, as many regimes did.

 

[Jesus is my Superhero]

This was like advanced math, and I disagree with the equation I became a bit sleepy from reading it. How can all go to heaven, when some have hate? There should be no hate in heaven. And you must will it, you are not forced, we do get a choice. I do not believe that the leader of Germany in 1945 entered heaven. Or communists who reject and ban christianity, as many regimes did.

It should also be obvious that God is unyielding to sin. If sinners are allowed in paradise, I don't want to be resurrected.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I think that might be the most useful reply. If you're familiar with Mackie's logical problem of evil, perhaps Plantinga's free will defense will work here too since Adam's and Mackie's arguments are similar.

Mine was a consciously chosen free will defense. God let me choose. That even means choosing against the good, the true, and the beautiful if I stubbornly want to. Now I do not want to choose against the good, the true, or the beautiful, but every day I seem to do that to one degree or another.

 

[public hermit]

This was like advanced math, and I disagree with the equation I became a bit sleepy from reading it. How can all go to heaven, when some have hate? There should be no hate in heaven. And you must will it, you are not forced, we do get a choice. I do not believe that the leader of Germany in 1945 entered heaven. Or communists who reject and ban christianity, as many regimes did.

So, do you reject that premise that says if God were all powerful, God would be able to avoid sending people to hell forever. Perhaps God is not more powerful than human hate?

 

[Jesus is my Superhero]

People choose to be kept out of Paradise by their actions and the unrepentant evil in their hearts. God obliges.

 

[public hermit]

Mine was a consciously chosen free will defense. God let me choose. That even means choosing against the good, the true, and the beautiful if I stubbornly want to. Now I do not want to choose against the good, the true, or the beautiful, but every day I seem to do that to one degree or another.

We all do, in some way or another, I think. We are brought into a situation where we can not do all the good we want, and certainly not all we should, which is why Xns embrace grace. It makes sense given our condition.

So, perhaps God is not perfectly good, and will only extend grace to those whom God chooses. Maybe God is more free than we assume, i.e. free in regards to goodness, free to destroy or torment those who could have been saved by grace. Or, perhaps God is limited in having the power to save, saving only those who freely want to be saved? No matter where we place the freedom, it seems God could avoid sending people to hell unless we limit one of the divine attributes, which may actually be the case. I don't know.

 

[Jesus is my Superhero]

..."Not by might or power, but by my Spirit".

 

[Sabertooth]

I guess you're saying God sustains hell without being present?

He is Omnipresent. Both the Warden and the inmate attend prison each day, but in entirely different capacities. Even the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant states that the "tormentors" are officers of the King.

Must God send people to hell, or can God save them like he did Saul (Paul)?

Only God knows the difference why Saul was a worthwhile investment, as opposed to others.

God said,
“...I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and
I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” Exodus 33:19 NKJV
and,
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:9 NKJV

That means God is either flippant on whom He receives, or He has good reasons that are beyond our understanding.

Just curious, is there any of the premises of the argument that you reject?

That Love & Judgment cannot exist in the same Person.

 

[Sabertooth]

He is Omnipresent. Both the Warden and the inmate attend prison each day, but in entirely different capacities.

"Where can I go from Your Spirit?

Or where can I flee from Your presence?​

If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
If I take the wings of the morning,

And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
Even there Your hand shall lead me,
And Your right hand shall hold me.​

If I say, “Surely the darkness shall fall on me,”

Even the night shall be light about me;
Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You,​

But the night shines as the day;
The darkness and the light are both alike to You." Psalm 139:7-12 NKJV