Marilyn McCord Adams and the Problem of Hell

[public hermit]

It makes the false assumption that Omnipotent and Omniscient would be able to /know how to do something that is logically self-contradictory (eg God make a rock too big for him to pick up). If God has set hell as necessary for justice, which is intrinsically who he is, who are we to say it could have been done differently?

I don't think God avoiding sending people to hell is the same kind of logical contradiction as squaring the circle. You will have to explain how hell is necessary for justice. Is grace necessary for justice? Couldn't God just not have created those who would go to hell, or did God have to create them?

Here is a related response from Adams:
"For that matter, I, too, have a synoptic proof text (Matt. 19:24-26;
Mark 10:25-27; Luke 18:25-27): Jesus' claim that all things are possible
with God does not respond to worries about the size of stones
God is able to make and lift or the possibility of His squaring the
circle or making contradictories true but to the question how anyone
can be saved, about how human hearts can be changed. I understand
the answer to imply that God is so powerful, so witting and
resourceful, that he can let created persons do their damnedest and
still save them."

 

[Jesus is my Superhero]

Do you think it is possible for God to bring about the appropriate contrite spirit and humble attitude needed for divine compassion? Or, is that solely a work achieved by human effort?

He does say that He can harden a heart or soften one. My view is, who am I to question the creator?
Is He making this changed heart softer from a soft start position and a hard heart harder from its beginning position? Perhaps He accomplishes His will by subjecting the person to trials and hardships and this is how He changes ones heart.

I believe divine intervention is needed to convince someone to turn to God. What use to be called initial conversion, a starting point.

 

[mindfulzen]

A lot of what you're saying sounds right. How could we enter heaven with hate in our hearts? Surely, we need changed hearts in order to do that. And, I agree, it seems it would take some effort on our part. Although, the scriptures seem pretty clear that it is God who gives us a new heart (replacing our "heart of stone with one of flesh"). I'm not going to pretend to know how to delineate the relationship between God's grace and our effort, though there must be one. But your notion about having the right kind of heart to enter heaven seems on point.

Isn't it replacing of heart, when we freely give it to him, 100% trust and faith, and no hatred. I took it as a process from believing, to being marked by the holy spirit, after you are a candidate for claiming of God. That kind of makes you a lamb of God, that is not allowed to be touched by the devil. Then we must do the last part, pray, beg forgiveness and our heart is inspected and we individually get a verdict. Heavenmaterial or not. And after the holy spirit makes us untouchables, we have an easier time working on mending our hearts, without exteriour distraction. And then we walk the narrow path, or not.

I am a newbie, could you please point me to the verses about heart of stone. I should read it. I started with preachers interpreting the bible for me. Should read the verses regarding this.

 

[TedT]

It doesn't square with Jesus saying that Hell was originally created for "the Devil & his angels" (not people) [Matthew 25:41].

Please consider:
ANGELS ARE PEOPLE because Angels have free will:

1. Angels worship GOD:
Hebrews 1:6 points out that angels worship the Lord. We also see the heavenly host praising God in Luke 2:13–14. Robotic praise and worship is a parody of the real thing and worthless in heaven. When you put on a dvd and listen to a worship song singing praises to GOD, do you think or allude to the dvd as worshipping? Of course you don't.

2. Some angels are elect:
1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the ELECT angels. implying the fallen angels are non-elect demons ie the people of the evil one, the tares, sown into the world by the devil. IF angels can choose to sin and become demons, they can also choose to be holy and work for GOD.

3. Angels are holy:
Mark 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the HOLY angels. This verse contrasts the sinfulness of men with the holiness, that is, the righteousness of angels, not just their consecration to GOD. Robotic holiness is a farce...a stone cannot sin but it is not righteous and a robot neither can be holy, that is, in the context of this verse, righteous. As well, Satan's fall is proof of his free will as he is not guilty of anything if he is a robot...

4. Angels have emotions such as love, joy, desire, sadness, pride, and anger:
Luke 15:10 indicates that angels are joyous when one person repents. The devil has great wrath in Revelation 12:12. The angels and the devil have desires (1 Peter 1:12; John 8:44). Why would anyone create a robotic group with emotions to drive them when HIS will is all that is necessary to drive them? Robotic emotions??? Surely only people have emotions...proof of their personhood in the image of GOD.

5. Angels are Persons in the image of GOD:
In the resurrection, man will be as the angels of God. Matt 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. In the resurrection, man is restored to the image of God in which he was created but broke by sinning. The angels of God must, therefore, bear the image of God.

The image of GOD cannot contain sin therefore for man to be a sinner, the image must be broken. In the resurrection we will be restored to the full image of GOD and like the angels as this verse hints, who therefore must also be in HIS image. When did they receive the image of God unless it was in creation?

The image of GOD? I think it means things like personhood that is, self awareness, intelligence, emotional ability, curiosity and creativity and the ability to make true free will decisions. Therefore any being that fits this description fits the image of GOD... It also means they are suitable as marriage partners for our GOD, part of those who make up HIS Bride who were elected to be conformed to HIS Son and to heaven.

Not only does the ability to worship, to praise, to be elect and to be holy imply personhood, they also imply they have free will and if you combine free will with election of some and the fall of others, you get angels going through an Adam like choice with some staying holy and Satan and his crew choosing to in the unforgivable sin which made them forever evil in HIS sight.

Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) theology contends that EVERY PERSON was created in the image of GOD that is, able to be HIS Bride. As true innocents we only had the potential for perfection, ie, we had to choose by our free will to accept GOD and HIS life for us in heaven to fulfill our potential to become perfect in righteousness. Our fall into sin delayed the fulfillment of that potential by making it impossible to fulfill without grace.

Our redemption is a restoration to the potential and the new creation is the fully realized fulfillment of HIS purpose for our creation in us.

Peace, Ted

 

[Jesus is my Superhero]

We are forced to be born and to live in this world. There's no choice in that. Also there's no choice in when and how we die. (outside of suicide, but I'm not talking about that). So why must there be a choice regarding the afterlife?

Because omission is also a choice. unavoidable. Fence sitting is the wrong choice. Paul wrote that the creation is a proof of God but most are in rebellion and refuse to acknowledge Him.

 

[public hermit]

YES HE had the power to create a creation free of evil, but to do so meant HE had to deny us a free will, the source of all evil, which would make it impossible for HIM to have a true marriage based on a true love, with us.

I know this is a common argument, but how does the freedom to sin contribute to true love? We don't need the freedom to not love in order to be able to love. There are people that I love, have loved all my life, and I could not simply decide to not love them if I wanted to. Ask a mother if she can just choose not to love her child. Most will say that is simply not possible. They can't help but love that child. Is my love not true for those whom I cannot possibly decide to not love? That makes no sense. I definitely reject the idea that I must be able to choose not to love in order to truly love. The freedom to sin, which I agree we have, contributes absolutely nothing to love.

 

[public hermit]

Isn't it replacing of heart, when we freely give it to him, 100% trust and faith, and no hatred. I took it as a process from believing, to being marked by the holy spirit, after you are a candidate for claiming of God. That kind of makes you a lamb of God, that is not allowed to be touched by the devil. Then we must do the last part, pray, beg forgiveness and our heart is inspected and we individually get a verdict. Heavenmaterial or not. And after the holy spirit makes us untouchables, we have an easier time working on mending our hearts, without exteriour distraction. And then we walk the narrow path, or not.

I am a newbie, could you please point me to the verses about heart of stone. I should read it. I started with preachers interpreting the bible for me. Should read the verses regarding this.

I am excited for you! I trust Christ will finish the work in you that has been started.

Below are the verse and related ones. They indicate, to me, that God does the lion's share in the transformation process. Of course, we are to work out our own salvation, but it is God who enables us to do that work (Philippians 2:12-13).

Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26, Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10

 

[Jesus is my Superhero]

I am a newbie, could you please point me to the verses about heart of stone. I should read it. I started with preachers interpreting the bible for me. Should read the verses regarding this.

Exodus for the Pharaoh heart hardening.
Daniel for Nebuchadnezzar heart hardening.

 

[Sabertooth]

Daniel for Nebuchadnezzar heart hardening.

In Neb's case, it was only a temporary hardening...
He finally recognized God in the end.

 

[TedT]

I know this is a common argument, but how does the freedom to sin contribute to true love?

Because there can be no true love without a free will and a free will must also be able to hate.

 

[Jesus is my Superhero]

True love is defined by the Ten Commandments. This is how God teaches us Agape love.

 

[public hermit]

Because there can be no true love without a free will and a free will must also be able to hate.

I definitely disagree, but also understand what you are saying.

 

[Jesus is my Superhero]

In Neb's case, it was only a temporary hardening...
He finally recognized God in the end.

He must have been healthy eating all that grass for 7 years, eh? I'm no Vegan!

 

[Jesus is my Superhero]

Because there can be no true love without a free will and a free will must also be able to hate.

Hate is a fallen trait acquired from Satan.
even lacking hate, human love is incapable of pleasing God. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

[mindfulzen]

I am excited for you! I trust Christ will finish the work in you that has been started.

Below are the verse and related ones. They indicate, to me, that God does the lion's share in the transformation process. Of course, we are to work out our own salvation, but it is God who enables us to do that work (Philippians 2:12-13).

Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26, Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10

Thank you for helping me. Will read it. Have no fears for me, he will finish the work if I stay strong and make the ask.

 

[Halbhh]

Marilyn McCord Adams, who was a philosopher and Episcopal priest, developed an argument to refute ECT (eternal conscious torment). Her argument is candidly appropriated from the logical problem of evil by J.L. Mackie.

She begins with two premises
G: God exists, and is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good
H: Some created persons will be consigned to hell forever

The argument:
1. If God existed and were omnipotent, then God would be able to avoid H
2. If God existed and were omniscient, then God would know how to avoid H
3. If God existed and were perfectly good, then God would want to avoid H
Conclusion: If G; then not-H
(If God exists, and is essentially omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good; then it is not the case that some created persons will be consigned to hell forever)

This is my first time seeing this argument, so I am curious what y'all think.

https://cpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/campu...l-A-Problem-of-Evil-for-Christians-pslyys.pdf

Marilyn McCord Adams - Wikipedia

To answer your question, to me personally my own response is that the logic of that view would have been a problem if it had been the case there were ECT in the bible for human souls (humans are not like angels in that way; angels currently already have eternal life for instance).

The compelling reason to think hell is truly a "second death" where those there that have consciously rejected God will "perish" in that "second death" where God will "destroy body and soul" is because those wordings are actually what are in the scriptural text. But the the wonderful good news is “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. "

 

[mindfulzen]

I am excited for you! I trust Christ will finish the work in you that has been started.

Below are the verse and related ones. They indicate, to me, that God does the lion's share in the transformation process. Of course, we are to work out our own salvation, but it is God who enables us to do that work (Philippians 2:12-13).

Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26, Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10

Philippians 2:12-13 is my take. This is what pastors have preached to me. I consider this step done, since I have no fear, even though I have much to fear.

Ezekiel 11:19, yes, agree, and have been preached this to, paraphrased. This means inspection of the heart to me.

Ezekiel 36:26 agree, and same again, I must make the heart change. I am given the tools, I must do the job myself, not free.

Jeremiah 31:33, new to me. I support Israels right to exist, and have their state in peace, but this is news to me. I must contemplate this one. It seems I must agree with the legal system in todays Israel, I do not know it, so guess I must accept it without knowledge. Cannot do this step yet. Seems to be for israel people only, not me.

Hebrews 8:10 same thing. This does seem like God talking to the jewish people, not me. I think I am cool on this issue, and have done the steps the right way.

It is kind of complicated, but also simple. I do not think we are supposed to overthink it and complicate it. So I go with a gutfeeling and how I feel it is, because if not, religion would not be for all, and I believe it is for all. God does not discriminate against those who do not have the capacity to comprehend it all, I doubt that. It is a heart thing for me. Seeking, being genuine, honesty, not the intellect. Nobody is better than anybody else. We are all equals, we just go separate ways, to the same place. Heart is king over the intellect for me. When my intellect controlled my heart, I could not find God. So this is right for me.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I don't think God avoiding sending people to hell is the same kind of logical contradiction as squaring the circle. You will have to explain how hell is necessary for justice. Is grace necessary for justice? Couldn't God just not have created those who would go to hell, or did God have to create them?

Here is a related response from Adams:
"For that matter, I, too, have a synoptic proof text (Matt. 19:24-26;
Mark 10:25-27; Luke 18:25-27): Jesus' claim that all things are possible
with God does not respond to worries about the size of stones
God is able to make and lift or the possibility of His squaring the
circle or making contradictories true but to the question how anyone
can be saved, about how human hearts can be changed. I understand
the answer to imply that God is so powerful, so witting and
resourceful, that he can let created persons do their damnedest and
still save them."

It seems to me her viewpoint is still visible, that assumes (whether she knows she assumes it or not) things are what they are by default, apart from causation, and she wants to assail the notion that God causes it all.

But self-contradictories, are not things, as such. Just notions in the mind.

 

[public hermit]

But self-contradictories, are not things, as such. Just notions in the mind.

Good point. If I were pushed in a corner, I would settle for the fact there is just so much we don't know about God's side of things. I don't think that is a trivial fact. And, it is part of why I am a bit agnostic about how things will come down at the consummation. I am very much open to UR, but stop short of saying that is the way it has to be simply because I don't have that kind of information. But as things seem to my pea brain, I do tend that way.

 

[Der Alte]

...
The compelling reason to think hell is truly a "second death" where those there that have consciously rejected God will "perish" in that "second death" where God will "destroy body and soul" is because those wordings are actually what are in the scriptural text. ...

This part of the post misrepresents what scripture actually says.
The lake of fire is called "second death" twice Rev 20:14, Rev 21:8 but scripture does not say anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

One of these, the false prophet, is a person he does not die but is tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

What God created He can certainly destroy but this verse does not say "God will destroy."