Marilyn McCord Adams and the Problem of Hell

[public hermit]

At the very least, it is undeniable that the god of historical Christianity and the god of Universalists are drastically different.

Or, not. I guess that's the question under discussion. Perhaps you would like to engage? Do you think it is even possible that God could save all? Zippy, gather up your courage, make an assertion, and defend it.

 

[zippy2006]

Or, not.

Do you not think that the conceptual differences are drastic?

I guess that's the question under discussion. Perhaps you would like to engage? Do you think it is even possible that God could save all? Zippy, gather up your courage, make an assertion, and defend it.

I am not the one who has failed to engage. This thread is filled with my unanswered arguments. Go back and pick one if you're interested.

You seem to think that I started a thread on why Universalism is incorrect. But you started the thread, and you claim to furnish us with an argument in favor of Universalism. The person who gives an argument assumes the burden of proof. But refusal to defend any of one's premises means that one has not actually made an argument in any real sense, nor have they assumed the burden of proof. This thread is essentially the assertion, "A good God wouldn't send anyone to Hell. Prove me wrong." If I want to argue against Universalism tout court I will start my own thread.

But yes, until this thread presents a real argument for the position of the OP I will move on.

 

[public hermit]

Do you not think that the conceptual differences are drastic?



I am not the one who has failed to engage. This thread is filled with my unanswered arguments. Go back and pick one if you're interested.

You seem to think that I started a thread on why Universalism is incorrect. But you started the thread, and you claim to furnish us with an argument in favor of Universalism. The person who gives an argument assumes the burden of proof. But refusal to defend any of one's premises means that one has not actually made an argument in any real sense, nor have they assumed the burden of proof. This thread is essentially the assertion, "A good God wouldn't send anyone to Hell. Prove me wrong." If I want to argue against Universalism tout court I will start my own thread.

But yes, until this thread presents a real argument for the position of the OP I will move on.

May the peace of Christ go with you.

 

[Sparagmos]

btw, how would #3 ever follow? #3 would seem to suppose that there is no such thing as a refusal to repent/rejection of God for example or that free will doesn't exist. But those do exist. There are some that refuse to repent. We are told in scripture that some become vessels of destruction, and they are not removed ahead of time.

Ah! This will be much more clear than my wording above!! --

24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28 “ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29 “ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ ”
Matthew 13 NIV

(Italics added; notice that the wheat needs to grow to maturity before being harvested)

But God made the rules. He decided to create an eternal place of torment for people who rejected him. He could have let people reject him and not had such a horrible consequence.

 

[Sabertooth]

Okay, do you think it is even possible for God to save all?

No. It appears to be one of His limitations, like not lying, nor breaking His promises...

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness,

but is longsuffering toward us,​

not willing that any should perish

but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9 NKJV​

Jesus said,
“Enter by the narrow gate;
for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction,

and there are many who go in by it.​

Because narrow is the gate
and difficult is the way which leads to life,

and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14 NKJV​

 

[Saint Steven]

The corollary seems to be that God MUST force everyone into heaven, even those for whom being forced into heaven against their will would be a living hell. We are all forcibly predestined into heaven, even against our wills. Or we are all forcibly predestined to will to go to heaven. God has no respect for our choices in such a scenario.

It seems that from the Christian POV, everyone has a choice between heaven or hell, and our personal will is sovereign over our destination in the after life.

From this POV, God becomes evil if he violates our own sovereign will. What's wrong with this picture? Doesn't this POV make us our own God?

I don't think everyone does have a choice, and our will is NOT sovereign over our destination in the after life.

 

[Saint Steven]

No, that God cannot exist in the same reality with such a hell [ECT], when He, Himself, announced its existence and its (original) purpose, the eternal punishment of fallen angels (which God isn't).

Is God allowed to create a place of eternal punishment for them?
Is He allowed to expand its purpose to include unrepentant humans, if He so chooses (and has clearly stated)?
[Her] argument that Hell was not compatible with God's reality could have only been true before the angels' rebellion, since it was their leader who orchestrated the human Fall.

For what purpose is "eternal" punishment? What is the goal?
Is God really good if he does such a thing, even to the Devil and his angels?
Who is the real evil here? Doesn't God become worse than those he is punishing?

 

[Saint Steven]

If sinners are allowed in paradise, I don't want to be resurrected.

If sinners aren't allowed, you won't be there either. (nor will I)

 

[Saint Steven]

No matter where we place the freedom, it seems God could avoid sending people to hell unless we limit one of the divine attributes, which may actually be the case. I don't know.

If we could limit a divine attribute, we thereby nullify it. Omni = all

 

[Saint Steven]

That means God is either flippant on whom He receives, or He has good reasons that are beyond our understanding.

Adolf Hitler was actually a nice guy. What he was up to is just "beyond our understanding". I'm sure his motives were pure, despite what it looked like. Right?

 

[Saint Steven]

But God made the rules. He decided to create an eternal place of torment for people who rejected him. He could have let people reject him and not had such a horrible consequence.

There we go. Lay the blame where it belongs. Most Christians blame the victims.

If there is a hell, as described in the common dogma, then God is the worst tyrant anyone could conceive of. And "love" would not be a proper attribute for such a beast. Thus, there can be no hell as described in the common dogma. God is destroyed by such a notion. A slanderous accusation IMHO.

 

[Hmm]

The corollary seems to be that God MUST force everyone into heaven, even those for whom being forced into heaven against their will would be a living hell. We are all forcibly predestined into heaven, even against our wills. Or we are all forcibly predestined to will to go to heaven. God has no respect for our choices in such a scenario.

I think anyone who sees God as being where their true happiness and fulfilment lies then they could not want otherwise than to be with Him. Lot's of people in this life have turned their back on God but isn't this because they see that their happiness lies elsewhere, as the Prodigal Son did? I don't believe scripture says that God stops acting on us after death, indeed their are passages that day the opposite, so I don't don't see why God wouldn't be able to reveal Himself as the thing that we really want to someone in "hell" however slowly and painstaking a process that would be. It would involve the person acknowledging great wrongs that they have done and repenting, and that's never an easy process. But God has made it clear that he desires all to be saved and I think He would be able to get through to anyone eventually and achieve His stated purpose of reconciling all people and the whole world to Him.

 

[Saint Steven]

Interesting! Can those in heaven be corrupted? Perhaps they can. That is a fascinating take because I think most assume our struggles are over once there. But maybe we are still susceptible to sin?

Those who claim that our own will is sovereign over our destiny would have to concede that it doesn't end when we arrive. Then what?

 

[Saint Steven]

My view is, who am I to question the creator?

Interesting that questioning the dogma quickly changes to questioning the Creator. Assuming the dogma is right and the questioning is wrong.

"Sure it doesn't make sense. But his ways are higher than our ways..."

 

[Saint Steven]

The reason we're in the "Controversial Christian Theology" forum is because Universalism has historically been viewed as a Christian heresy, which is to say that the historical Church has consistently concluded that Universalists worship a different God and hold to a different faith.

The church had a "history" in the east BEFORE it had a history in the west.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

 

[chevyontheriver]

I think anyone who sees God as being where their true happiness and fulfilment lies then they could not want otherwise than to be with Him. Lot's of people in this life have turned their back on God but isn't this because they see that their happiness lies elsewhere, as the Prodigal Son did? I don't believe scripture says that God stops acting on us after death, indeed their are passages that day the opposite, so I don't don't see why God wouldn't be able to reveal Himself as the thing that we really want to someone in "hell" however slowly and painstaking a process that would be. It would involve the person acknowledging great wrongs that they have done and repenting, and that's never an easy process. But God has made it clear that he desires all to be saved and I think He would be able to get through to anyone eventually and achieve His stated purpose of reconciling all people and the whole world to Him.

Jesus spoke quite a bit about hell and about judgment. So what you propose is maybe possible but if we believe Jesus it is unlikely. I think we have to take Jesus at face value in what He considers to be important. Or else straight up say He is an unreliable guide to truth.

 

[Hmm]

Jesus spoke quite a bit about hell and about judgment. So what you propose is maybe possible but if we believe Jesus it is unlikely. I think we have to take Jesus at face value in what He considers to be important. Or else straight up say He is an unreliable guide to truth.

I agree that we have to take Jesus at face value. In Matthew 25:46 he says aionios kolasis to describe hell and judgement as a place of corrective/educative punishment (kolasis) rather than punitive punishment and where we're only there for a limited though possibly long period of time (aionios). AFAIK, this is the view held by most Christian universalists.

 

[Jesus is my Superhero]

If sinners aren't allowed, you won't be there either. (nor will I)

I probably should have stated it as unrepentant sinners.

 

[Jesus is my Superhero]

Interesting that questioning the dogma quickly changes to questioning the Creator. Assuming the dogma is right and the questioning is wrong.

"Sure it doesn't make sense. But his ways are higher than our ways..."

Whata are you doing? stalking me. LOL Calm down, nobody has all the answers. enjoy your walk with God. Jesus' peace to you sir.

 

[Saint Steven]

Jesus spoke quite a bit about hell and about judgment. So what you propose is maybe possible but if we believe Jesus it is unlikely. I think we have to take Jesus at face value in what He considers to be important. Or else straight up say He is an unreliable guide to truth.

There is a problem with the translations we are working with. Those with a bias towards ECT are putting words in Jesus' mouth.