Marian Apparitions...

[WarriorAngel]

I can imagine the Headlines the day after the Rapture of the Church...

MILLIONS OF PEOPLE FLOCK TO SEE MARY WHILE MILLIONS MORE SUDDENLY VANISH ON OTHER SIDE OF THE WORLD.

Imagination seems to be an important requirement for much of the rapture premise since it is not biblical.
Nor has it ever been taught in the early Church who worried the time of the end could be soon.
One would have thought it would have been an important documented truth if it was at all believed.

 

[Amylisa]

Imagination seems to be an important requirement for much of the rapture premise since it is not biblical.
Nor has it ever been taught in the early Church who worried the time of the end could be soon.
One would have thought it would have been an important documented truth if it was at all believed.

A Baptist friend of my husband's is a real Bible scholar...he told us a long time ago that the teaching of the rapture is a fairly recent development in the church. The rapture was not taught until sometime in the late 1800's I believe. He personally believes everything happens at Jesus' Second Coming.

 

[WarriorAngel]

In regards to apparitions i would say that these are much more likely to be satanic deception than anything else.

14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

I will repeat this again...
The Church has all her doctrines in order... nothing new crops up - only heresy crops up and so her argument goes back to that which has been recorded and again - defines what is orthodox.

Now that aside, an angel of light - that appears to deceive would be a demon - who are angels too...and masquerade as light...

BUT St John tells us explicitly that an angel that comes with a DIFFERENT GOSPEL - is anathema, that is condemned.

IF the messages appear to bring in new or different teachings they are false.
If they follow the ancient teachings [and usually given to the innocent and unlearned] receive such messages... so its not as though they have any formed opinions or got ideas from the internet... they are generally humble, low learned, and isolated people who dont use the net.
The Church has always had her teachings and an angel cannot bring truth if it were to go against the same ancient teachings of the Church first established by Christ.

 

[WarriorAngel]

A Baptist friend of my husband's is a real Bible scholar...he told us a long time ago that the teaching of the rapture is a fairly recent development in the church. The rapture was not taught until sometime in the late 1800's I believe. He personally believes everything happens at Jesus' Second Coming.

This is an example of a new doctrine that doesnt follow the same Gospel St John taught.
We have the understanding of the Second Coming.
All shall die, all shall rise, all shall be judged.

 

[Amylisa]

Hi there,
I don't really have an argument with what you have written Amylisa...but maybe you might consider that those that have traded in icons...(and don't be mistaken, it is a huge trade), and those in authority in the Body of Messiah that have welcomed their out-put for hundreds of years, and given their blessing to their veneration, have in fact put an unnecessary stumbling block before millions of people, who for whatever reasons do not use them as intended...

To my mind, some people have made a huge mistake, and rather than perpetuate, justify and sanction it, people should rise up and say enough is enough, and get rid of the things that are unwise and more often than not a distraction and side-show to the main attraction...Jesus.

Hebrews 12:1Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

If we truly believe those that have died in the L-rd are watching us and rooting for us, then lets clean up our act and run unencumbered, and prove the grace of G-d being effective in our lives.
For some of us that means kicking unhelpful traditions and practices into touch, believing G-d and taking Him at His word.

Hi,
the spirit of your post is very gracious and I hope I can word mine to reflect the same...it is hard to talk in forums like this since we can't hear each other's tone of voice, etc.

I understand what you are saying. No denomination is without its problems I think we can all agree on that.
In every group there are those who trade on religious items. To single out Catholicism in this way I don't think is entirely fair.

If someone does mistreat / misuse an icon, or a statue, does that mean then that everyone else should necessarily have to do without them...sorry my question mark key is broken. My little boy likes to pick the keys off the keyboard and so I have a few here that don't work anymore!

I wear a medal around my neck that has a picture of Mary. I wear it because I love her, and I love Yeshua so much....honoring His Mother brings joy to my heart. I love her like a mother, or maybe even as a mother in law. The way I feel about this is that I wear it in the same way as a daughter would wear a picture of her mother, perhaps in a locket or some such thing. Icons and statues, etc. are simply reminders that we, as physical beings still living in this world, may look at and be reminded of the ones we love, ones that we must wait to be united to in heaven.

When you stop and think about it, does it make any sense that so many people are almost opposed to Mary ( I am not saying you are Zalal, just many who post here. She makes people nervous. But this is the mother of our Saviour that we are talking about. No we are not to worship her but to disregard her entirely is not true faith. It is not honoring to Christ. I say this in response to the numerous threads/topics here.

 

[Studious One]

Christ established since 33 AD.
The world hated Him first, no doubt they hate His Church since it is His.

Christ did not establish the Roman Catholic church. He established His Church and the enemy, true to his form, presented a imitation church with a new Hierarchy (Mary and the Popes).

And the gullible masses blindly followed.

 

[Zeek]

Hi,
the spirit of your post is very gracious and I hope I can word mine to reflect the same...it is hard to talk in forums like this since we can't hear each other's tone of voice, etc.

Thanks for the compliment...I do try hard to be gracious.

I know what you mean...it usually takes a few posts before you get an idea of what is in the heart of another person...e.g. from the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.

I understand what you are saying. No denomination is without its problems I think we can all agree on that.

Absolutely! No denomination is without its problems, and none of us are correct in everything we believe, or the way we apply what we think is true to our lives...basically, most of us are like the rest of us.

In every group there are those who trade on religious items. To single out Catholicism in this way I don't think is entirely fair.

It just happens to be that the threads in this section of the Forum, are based around Mary and the Saints, therefore by the very nature of the discussions, we have to look closely at Catholic and Orthodox traditions and teachings here...it is not meant to be any sort of bias.

If someone does mistreat / misuse an icon, or a statue, does that mean then that everyone else should necessarily have to do without them...sorry my question mark key is broken. My little boy likes to pick the keys off the keyboard and so I have a few here that don't work anymore!

I understand what you are saying, but have you considered that multitudes of people venerate these objects in a way that makes them destestable (although intrinsically they are merely meant to be devotional objects helping to focus ones faith)..and that the people who introduced these things into a segment of the Body of Messiah, have actually caused many of their weaker brethren to stumble...it shouldn't be so.

I wear a medal around my neck that has a picture of Mary. I wear it because I love her, and I love Yeshua so much....honoring His Mother brings joy to my heart. I love her like a mother, or maybe even as a mother in law. The way I feel about this is that I wear it in the same way as a daughter would wear a picture of her mother, perhaps in a locket or some such thing. Icons and statues, etc. are simply reminders that we, as physical beings still living in this world, may look at and be reminded of the ones we love, ones that we must wait to be united to in heaven.

I don't have a big problem with that...all I would say is that no one knew what Mary looked like, and that making images can be controversial...I am glad that you love Yeshua....it comes across that way too. I honour Mary as the mother of our L-rd, and I treasure every account of her life in the Scriptures.

When you stop and think about it, does it make any sense that so many people are almost opposed to Mary ( I am not saying you are Zalal, just many who post here. She makes people nervous. But this is the mother of our Saviour that we are talking about. No we are not to worship her but to disregard her entirely is not true faith. It is not honoring to Christ. I say this in response to the numerous threads/topics here.

As I have already stated, I love Mary...I also think many of the brethren here that oppose the teachings that have lifted Mary to a position that is unbiblical....do not hate Mary at all....what they hate is the way all the razzamatazz surrounding her actually dishonours her and brings her down to some ghastly religious caricature, all plastic and tinsel and horribly religious ...I guess sometimes in the heat of the moment we might express this in ways that seem to attack Mary...but I don't think any true Believer would mean to do such a thing.

All the best....In Messiah. Zazal

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by WarriorAngel Christ established since 33 AD.
The world hated Him first, no doubt they hate His Church since it is His.

Christ did not establish the Roman Catholic church. He established His Church and the enemy, true to his form, presented a imitation church with a new Hierarchy (Mary and the Popes).
And the gullible masses blindly followed.

That is what I always figured

 

[simonthezealot]

IF the messages appear to bring in new or different teachings they are false.

That's right. And shows exactly why Fatima for example is satanic in origin because the familiar spirit of Mary wanted people to look to her...


Jeremiah 10:2, “Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.”

 

[WarriorAngel]

All generations shall call me Blessed...
SEE LUKE.

Blessed - venerable, honorable. To be venerated.

IF she was to be forgotten or even just a used womb - surely she could not speak this way. Yet it is recorded in the Gospel.
OUR Church is the one who maintains veneration of our Lady through all generations - yet another fulfillment of why the Catholic Church remains true.


ven·er·ate/ˈvenəˌrāt/

Verb:Regard with great respect; revere.
Synonyms:revere - respect - honour - honor - esteem -

 

[simonthezealot]

All generations shall call me Blessed...
SEE LUKE.

Blessed - venerable, honorable. To be venerated.

IF she was to be forgotten or even just a used womb - surely she could not speak this way. Yet it is recorded in the Gospel.
OUR Church is the one who maintains veneration of our Lady through all generations - yet another fulfillment of why the Catholic Church remains true.


ven·er·ate/ˈvenəˌrāt/

Verb:Regard with great respect; revere.
Synonyms:revere - respect - honour - honor - esteem -

Calling her blessed is one thing attaching what is clearly (to those without Rome colored glasses)the work of the adversary to her is quite another.
Makes one wonder what's in the incense???..

 

[jackmt]

All generations shall call me Blessed...
SEE LUKE.

Blessed - venerable, honorable. To be venerated.

IF she was to be forgotten or even just a used womb - surely she could not speak this way. Yet it is recorded in the Gospel.
OUR Church is the one who maintains veneration of our Lady through all generations - yet another fulfillment of why the Catholic Church remains true.


ven·er·ate/ˈvenəˌrāt/

Verb:Regard with great respect; revere.
Synonyms:revere - respect - honour - honor - esteem -

One ought not appeal to modern English definitions when the original Greek is available. When Mary said "All generations shall call me blessed" the word "blessed" is makarizo, 'to pronounce fortunate'. It is the same word Jesus used in the Beatitudes; Blessed are the poor in spirit... and elsewhere by Jesus and Paul when speaking of the saints, me included. The other word used is eulogeo, 'to speak well of, praise.' Again, the same word used by Jesus and Paul when speaking of the saints (believers).

You are using a modern English dictionary definition that has nothing to do with how the word was used in Scripture. And you add a syllable to make it sound even holier; bless-ed, as opposed to the proper blest.

 

[Standing Up]

Calling her blessed is one thing attaching what is clearly (to those without Rome colored glasses)the work of the adversary to her is quite another.
Makes one wonder what's in the incense???..

Has anyone heard of the Lady of the Nations, Mary also, apparitions?

 

[WarriorAngel]

i checked different sources - literal translation is blessed.


48Ὅτι ἐπέβλεψεν ἐπὶ τὴν ταπείνωσιν τῆς δούλης αὐτοῦ. Ἰδοὺ γάρ, ἀπὸ τοῦ νῦν μακαριοῦσίν με πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί.

Lk 1:48for he has looked at the humble state of his handmaid. For behold, from now on, all generations will call me blessed.


Greek New Testament - Wiki English Translation - Luke 1





μακαριοῦσίν (makariousin) — 1 OccurrenceLuke 1:48 V-FIA-3P
BIB: τοῦ νῦν μακαριοῦσίν με πᾶσαι
NAS: generations will count me blessed.
KJV: shall call me blessed.
INT: henceforth will count blessed me all


Greek Concordance: μακαριοῦσίν (makariousin) -- 1 Occurrence







makariousinμακαριοῦσίνwill count blessedV-FIA-3PLuke 1:48 Greek Texts and Analysis




i looked at Koine Greek - the word fortunate was never part of the verse

μακαριοῦσίν

 

[jackmt]

i checked different sources - literal translation is blessed.


Lk 1:48for he has looked at the humble state of his handmaid. For behold, from now on, all generations will call me blessed.

i looked at Koine Greek - the word fortunate was never part of the verse
μακαριοῦσίν

Yes, it is correctly translated 'blessed.' The problem is the RC definition of 'blessed.'

Technically you're right, it only occurs once in the form makariso -'blessed,' 'fortunate.' The emphatic form makarios - 'supremely blessed,' used by Paul and Jesus to and about His followers, occurs about 40 times. This understanding is supported by the fact that makariso has the diminutive suffix -iso.

See Luke 11:27,28 regarding Jesus' answer to those who were calling her blessed. See also how right before that He was warning about demons and how right afterwards He warns against seeking signs (apparitions?).

 

[Thekla]

See Luke 11:27,28 regarding Jesus' answer to those who were calling her blessed. See also how right before that he was warning about demons and how right afterwards He warns against seeking signs (apparitions?).

I am not RC, so will not comment on apparitions, but your interpretation of Luke 11:27-28 is curious.

Christ's answer (menoun is consistently used to mean 'indeed', which is the British meaning of 'rather') affirms that His mother is blessed; after all, she heard the word of God and kept it - if not, Jesus would not have been born ...

 

[jackmt]

I am not RC, so will not comment on apparitions, but your interpretation of Luke 11:27-28 is curious.

Christ's answer (menoun is consistently used to mean 'indeed', which is the British meaning of 'rather') affirms that His mother is blessed; after all, she heard the word of God and kept it - if not, Jesus would not have been born ...

Strong gives it as both 'nay, but' and 'yea, doubtless.' Context indicates he is not denying Mary's blessedness but emphasizing the need for the believer to follow Him rather than Mary. Especially when seen within the parenthetical warnings about demons and apparitions.

 

[Thekla]

Strong gives it as both 'nay, but' and 'yea, doubtless.' Context indicates he is not denying Mary's blessedness but emphasizing the need for the believer to follow Him rather than Mary. Especially when seen within the parenthetical warnings about demons and apparitions.

Strongs seems to have ignored the use of menoun in all Greek writings of the time. It's 'negative' application in (iirc) Ephesians is perhaps based on the 'exasperated' tone of Paul's statements (thus, in this verse emphasizing the situation in a manner which makes the comparison 'ironic').

As for the woman's statements, she echoes a Jewish blessing also given in the OT (though I'm sorry, I cannot recall the location); this identifies Christ as worthy of praise. And indeed, are others who touched Him not blessed, as with the woman with an issue of blood, and all those He healed with His hand, His spittle, and also His presence and prayer ?

Christ confirms and then turns the emphasis to faithfulness (to hear and keep the word of God), which of course is true of His mother. Ie, the blessing is not physical (though those whom He healed did indeed receive a physical blessing) but spiritual.

I'm not sure how the woman's statements are understood as Marian worship.

 

[jackmt]

Strongs seems to have ignored the use of menoun in all Greek writings of the time. It's 'negative' application in (iirc) Ephesians is perhaps based on the 'exasperated' tone of Paul's statements (thus, in this verse emphasizing the situation in a manner which makes the comparison 'ironic').

As for the woman's statements, she echoes a Jewish blessing also given in the OT (though I'm sorry, I cannot recall the location); this identifies Christ as worthy of praise. And indeed, are others who touched Him not blessed, as with the woman with an issue of blood, and all those He healed with His hand, His spittle, and also His presence and prayer ?

Christ confirms and then turns the emphasis to faithfulness (to hear and keep the word of God), which of course is true of His mother. Ie, the blessing is not physical (though those whom He healed did indeed receive a physical blessing) but spiritual.

I'm not sure how the woman's statements are understood as Marian worship.

I don't think they are worship per se, but an aspect of worship. I believe God let every heresy into the early church so that Scripture could speak against them. If we take the Lord's prayer as an act of worship - Father (Hail Mary), in heaven (The Lord is with thee), Holy is your name (blessed art thou), etc. - What the woman said is the first part of that prayer that could reasonably be said, as she was speaking to Jesus while Mary was still alive. Again, Jesus, not denying Mary's blessedness, emphasized the believer's equal blessedness in his relationship with God and redirected her away from Mary worship.

 

[alive2Christ]

Not Mary,satans angels.
2 Corinthians 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.