Marian apparitions...are they for real or a hoax?

[MoreCoffee]

I doesn't matter what we believe, what matters is the truth. ...

So much for sola fide

Lol, You funny. You should do stand up or something cause you iz funny.

Well, if belief isn't enough and truth is all that matters then christianity is shot. After all, the foundation premise of Christianity is believing in things we do not and cannot see. It's a faith-foundation religion.

 

[Defensor Christi]

Well after that one person said devotion to Mary is necessary for salvation I think im going to say its a hoax

\

Who said that?

So you're smarter than the devil?
Yes this "Mary" tells them to repent and get people saved... by following catholic traditions and devotion to her. Surprise, surprise.

Nothing wrong with following traditions...no one said devotion to Our Lady was necessary for salvation...suprise indeed

This apparition only mentions Jesus in passing, the rest is all about her and her immaculate heart which she say will save them.

Which apparition are you talking about?

But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Matthew 15:9

I am never impressed by verses out of context...

Don't you think satan would love to get people to worship Jesus and God in vain?

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. Proverbs 14:12

And how is that being done? How does one worship Jesus in vain?

Since this vision of Mary wasn't casting out any demons it is nothing like Jesus casting out demons.

On the contrary...any thing/person/object/apparition that directs worship to the Lord God seems very counter-productive to His enemy...

what are her virtues and hidden perfections?


What's virginal love? Never heard of it. what is different about virginal love from the other forms of love?




I would file this under storge love



How do you know she had compassion for all people?

I gave you a link to help answer your questions...

Mary as co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocatrix

Hail Mary, Conceived Without Sin | Catholic Answers

Scripture Catholic - THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY

Let me know if you need more...

There's those words again. "I don't think.." How much are you willing to bet that your assumption is correct? Would you be willing to bet your life on it?

I dont have to worry...not one bit, I am a devout member of the Church Christ founded...thanks though!!

Sorry if it offends you but that's the way I see it. I see no difference between what spiritual mediums do and what Catholics praying to persons that have passed on do.

I dont get offended...I come to these forums to help clear up long held misconceptions such as this...thanks though!!

Do you pray to fellow non canonised Catholics saints that have passed on like for example Catholic friends or family and how do you know the person you are praying to is in heaven?

Do I ask their intercession? No...but I do pray for the repose of their eternal souls. I rely upon the Church (through the cannonization process) to tell me which Saints are in the Lord's presence...I know because the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of the truth...

 

[Rhamiel]

Mr. Moe

Sorry if it offends you but that's the way I see it. I see no difference between what spiritual mediums do and what Catholics praying to persons that have passed on do.

I have two questions for you.

Do you pray to fellow non canonised Catholics saints that have passed on like for example Catholic friends or family and how do you know the person you are praying to is in heaven?

the "I call them like I see them" reeks of how Atheists argue, this appeal to common sense while denigrating religious belief
"I see no difference between some shaman talking to spirits in the woods and Moses going up on a mountain to talk to God"
"I see no difference between the angel Gabriel bringing an announcement to Mary then in Greek myths were Hermes was the messenger of the gods"
even before the birth of Christ we can look among the pagan mythologies to find "messianic" type figures.
this does not negate the truth of the Gospels

as for your questions, no, I do not pray to people who have passed on who have not been recognized as saints because I do not know if they are in heaven.

 

[Albion]

as for your questions, no, I do not pray to people who have passed on who have not been recognized as saints because I do not know if they are in heaven.

It's not that simple in reality.

For one thing, people become saints by answering prayer directed to them.

Pope John Paul and many others "proved" themselves to be in heaven and so qualified for canonization by supposedly answering prayers directed by the faithful to them. In other words, before they were recognized as saints, they were prayed to (with the complete approval of the institutional church) by Catholics. Hmmm.

Second, you say you don't pray to people who have passed on and who have not been recognized as saints because you do not know if they are in heaven, but in truth Catholics do pray to people who are not in heaven.

You remember that there were a number of so-called saints (such as St. Christopher) who were the objects of prayer for centuries until recently being declared by the Vatican never to have lived at all, let alone be in heaven! There are others who are strictly mythical, too, yet the church OKed prayer to them. And there are some who are still listed among the saints although they are fictional.

 

[MKJ]

This is true, and in addition no Catholic is required to accept the validity of any private revelation, which includes those apparitions deemed by the Church to be considered legitimate.

Although it is a bit odd that some of these have been incorporated into Catholic practice.

So, you could end up in a Church celebrating the Sacred Heart of Jesus, or with a picture depicting it actually in the church building, while at the same time not believing in the personal apparition that supposedly gave rise to it.

 

[MKJ]

Does it have to be strictly either/or? Either all Marian apparitions are real or all are satanic "hoaxes?" What about the possibility of mass hysteria that is genuinely believed but has only psychological, and no spiritual, grounding? What if some are genuine, others are mass hysteria, and others are demonic?

To answer your particular concern, I would be hesitant to call any genuine Marian apparitions demonic. Would Christ allow his sacred mother to be used in such a way? And as for Satan's appearance as an angel of light, I don't think the text in question is actually referring to visions of angelic beings, but rather to the possibility that even the most extraordinarily holy persons (angelic or human) are susceptible to fall. And even if Satan wanted to use Marian for devious purposes, the Catholic Church generally investigates claims of such apparitions (and other miracles); the content of such revelations are checked against existing Catholic practice and cannot alter previous Catholic doctrine.

Could Satan use psychological means like mass hysteria to draw people away from focus on Christ, and even a proper theology of Mary (which always points to Christ), to an ecstatic Mariology focused on visions that point to Mary without pointing to Christ? Sure, I suppose it's possible. But in that case, the problem would not be with Marian devotion as such, but with the disposition of the individual- seeing Mary as an end-in-herself, not as pointing to Christ; a genuinely, for-real Marian apparition could likewise be corrupted if the person was devoted to Mary above Christ.

Hmm. I don't find myself at all skeptical of the idea that Satan could appear as Mary to deceive people. In fact, I think it is entirely possible for him to appear in such a way as to make someone think he is Christ or the Holy Spirit.

 

[MKJ]

It's not that simple in reality.

For one thing, people become saints by answering prayer directed to them.

Pope John Paul and many others "proved" themselves to be in heaven and so qualified for canonization by supposedly answering prayers directed by the faithful to them. In other words, before they were recognized as saints, they were prayed to (with the complete approval of the institutional church) by Catholics. Hmmm.

I think you are reading too much into a personal response. Rhamiel might not pray to someone who is not officially recognized as a saint yet, but many people do, and it is considered perfectly reasonable to do so.

The thing is, you presumably have to know enough about the person to think he or she is likely in Heaven - that is, a saint, just not officially recognized.

The whole process of formal canonization is just about putting some sort of official stamp on that idea so that others, who may not know the individual, can also have the benefit of some kind of assurance of the individual's good character.

The OC has a similar but less technical approach. People can direct prayers to any of the dead they see as holy people, and if many do see a particular person that way, it may be that their local church will begin to as well, or the national or international church. At the organizational level, there is a sort of vetting that goes on - they won't propagate the life of someone who may be questionable in some way. And many good people who lived quiet lives will probably only ever be remembered by those who actually knew them.

 

[Albion]

I think you are reading to much into a personal response. Rhamiel might not pray to someone who is not officially recognized as a saint yet, but many people do, and it is considered perfectly reasonable to do so.

Which is more or less what I said.

The thing is, you presumably have to know enough about the person to think he or she is likely in Heaven - that is, a saint, just not officially recognized.

So your point is that he makes a "personal interpretation" about whether the object of his praying is in heaven, regardless of "the Church" decision about that? That's not what he wrote. He said that he does not pray to those who have "not been recognized as saints."

 

[MKJ]

Which is more or less what I said.


So your point is that he makes a "personal interpretation" about whether the object of his praying is in heaven, regardless of "the Church" decision about that? That's not what he wrote. He said that he does not pray to those who have "not been recognized as saints."

No - what I meant is that the Catholic Church teaches that it is just fine to pray to any dead person you want to that you think is likely to be in Heaven. I suppose you could direct prayers to people that you think aren't in Heaven, but that seems like it might be rather pointless. But perhaps one might do so in a spirit of Hope, especially if it was someone you were close to. So, someone could pray to his dead mother, or a local priest who was widely known to be very holy.

Obviously, you need some kind of connection to do so - you have to at least know of the existence of this person, and most people would want to know enough to believe it was a holy person.

This sort of thing is really the basis of the formal idea of a recognized saint. When it is done on a wider scale - particularly if people want to include this person in public worship - then the people in charge have an interest in making sure this person is worthy of public recognition. So, not someone who secretly was evil, or taught weirdo heretical doctrines that might lead people astray. They don't say such people are not in Heaven, though it might be doubtful in some instances. But not allowing them to be acknowledged publicly is about maintaining good teachings and examples, and about making sure people aren't scandalized or lied to about the character or life of certain individuals - because that affects their faith negatively.

The worry that their prayers might be in vain isn't actually that important in itself - even if someone was dedicating prayers faithfully to St Wilgefortis all these years, it is not like that effort is somehow lost.

Personally, I think the catholic requirement for miracles as proof of Heaven is a bit silly, and probably counter=productive, but it is very characteristic of a certain period of religious thinking.

 

[concretecamper]

It's not that simple in reality.

For one thing, people become saints by answering prayer directed to them.

You have much to learn about the RCC. God performs the miracles required for a person to be considered for sainthood.....unless you know that already and took this as an opportunity to spread lies about the RCC.

 

[Rhamiel]

And there are some who are still listed among the saints although they are fictional

well that is a mighty heavy accusation

there was a book, "Interview with a Vampire" had a humorous view on this.

 

[yogosans14]

No - what I meant is that the Catholic Church teaches that it is just fine to pray to any dead person you want to that you think is likely to be in Heaven. I suppose you could direct prayers to people that you think aren't in Heaven, but that seems like it might be rather pointless. But perhaps one might do so in a spirit of Hope, especially if it was someone you were close to. So, someone could pray to his dead mother, or a local priest who was widely known to be very holy.

Obviously, you need some kind of connection to do so - you have to at least know of the existence of this person, and most people would want to know enough to believe it was a holy person.

This sort of thing is really the basis of the formal idea of a recognized saint. When it is done on a wider scale - particularly if people want to include this person in public worship - then the people in charge have an interest in making sure this person is worthy of public recognition. So, not someone who secretly was evil, or taught weirdo heretical doctrines that might lead people astray. They don't say such people are not in Heaven, though it might be doubtful in some instances. But not allowing them to be acknowledged publicly is about maintaining good teachings and examples, and about making sure people aren't scandalized or lied to about the character or life of certain individuals - because that affects their faith negatively.

The worry that their prayers might be in vain isn't actually that important in itself - even if someone was dedicating prayers faithfully to St Wilgefortis all these years, it is not like that effort is somehow lost.

Personally, I think the catholic requirement for miracles as proof of Heaven is a bit silly, and probably counter=productive, but it is very characteristic of a certain period of religious thinking.

I agree. The word of God makes it so Simple. Pray to the Trinity=Get your prayers answered.

 

[concretecamper]

I agree. The word of God makes it so Simple. Pray to the Trinity=Get your prayers answered.

Yes...God is the one that answers prayers

 

[yogosans14]

Yes and because of Christ we can approach Gods thrown of grace without a priest or Mary

 

[prodromos]

Yes and because of Christ we can approach Gods thrown of grace without a priest or Mary

Asking others to pray for you gives opportunities for other members of Christ's body to practice loving one another, that thing that Christ said would reveal who were His disciples.

 

[MKJ]

I agree. The word of God makes it so Simple. Pray to the Trinity=Get your prayers answered.

I am not sure how you got this from what i posted. I have no problem with prayers to the dead or the Church making decisions about the public recognition of saints - I consider them very reasonable and generally positive things.

 

[yogosans14]

I am not sure how you got this from what i posted. I have no problem with prayers to the dead or the Church making decisions about the public recognition of saints - I consider them very reasonable and generally positive things.

Oops nvm I disagree

 

[yogosans14]

Asking others to pray for you gives opportunities for other members of Christ's body to practice loving one another, that thing that Christ said would reveal who were His disciples.

I agree. But the mortal sin thing is unbiblical...all sin is equal..confess to God he is faithful to forgive us (1 John 1:9)

 

[MKJ]

Oops nvm I disagree

God tells us to pray for others. And most Christians think it is ok to ask people to pray for us too.

Do you really think the main reason to pray is to get things from God?

 

[yogosans14]

God tells us to pray for others. And most Christians think it is ok to ask people to pray for us too.

Do you really think the main reason to pray is to get things from God?

No...pray Is talking to God...its called a relationship