Marian apparitions...are they for real or a hoax?

[Rhamiel]

I would be the last one to accuse the RCC of killing too few people in the dark ages. you will get no argument from me on that one.

My point is that one cannot engage in the practice of the witches as if "it were a good thing" so long as "witch" is not the name used.

Catholics do not engage in the practices of witches

praying to saints is not comparable to the minor gods of the ancient Latin peoples

beads are good for keeping count of things, even a kindergarnder can tell you that, I do not think there is any direct link between different cultures use of beads and European use of beads

if the best you can do is drag up some poorly worded articles from the 1990's, then you do not really have much to go off of.

Who is the "Divine Mother" in this link?

Apparitions pictures | Voice and Echo of the Divine Mother

I do not know what this link is about?
I feel like this is some kind of trap....
like I said before, visions are investigated very thoroughly before the Church makes a ruling on the authenticity of such visions
so I will not talk about visions that have not been ruled on yet

 

[BobRyan]

I do not know what this link is about?
I feel like this is some kind of trap....
like I said before, visions are investigated very thoroughly before the Church makes a ruling on the authenticity of such visions
so I will not talk about visions that have not been ruled on yet

you "feel"??

I feel it is a Catholic web site promoting Mary.

What do others feel?

 

[Rhamiel]

you "feel"??

I feel it is a Catholic web site promoting Mary.

What do others feel?

you seem to find very obscure references to support your arguments

like some random magazine from the 1990's

so when you post some obscure website I feel apprehensive

 

[Defensor Christi]

Who is the "Divine Mother" in this link?

Apparitions pictures | Voice and Echo of the Divine Mother

It appears to be the Blessed Virgin Mary...but I suspect you knew that arleady...do you have a point?

 

[MrMoe]

there is this idea that "everybody is entitled to an opinion"
like, in some regards that is true
but if you do not really study these apparitions, then your opinion is one of ignorance.

the idea that the Miracle of the Sun that happened in Fatima was just some mass hallucination is unfounded, many people who were atheists saw it, many people who were several cities away saw it.
At the time, even the secular press of Portugal, that was VERY hostile to religion, did not deny that something happened, they just tried to blame it on the Aurora Borealis or other implausible naturalistic phenomenon

the healings and the Miracle of the Sun, the prophetic nature of the young visionaries (knowing that Francisco and Jacinta would die very young while Lucia would live to an old age) shows the supernatural nature of the visions

the fact that the visions encouraged
faith in Christ
prayers for the conversion of sinners
prayers for peace
encouraging modesty
shows that they are not from the Devil

I do not believe that the devil could tell people to pray to God, Satan is totally opposed to God

I doesn't matter what we believe, what matters is the truth. Saying "I do not believe" or "I do not feel" are based on emotion, and emotions can blind us. Jeremiah17:9

Satan can mix truth with lies to make believers swallow a lie with the truth.
This exactly what he did with Eve.

Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

He told the truth about their eyes being opened and knowing good from evil but he lied about them not dying.

Satan even quotes scripture to Jesus to try and make him sin.

In Acts 16:16 we read of a spirit of divination proclaiming: "These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation."

I would say satan knows the bible better than some people here do.

For satan the best way to keep an unbeliever deceived would be to keep them blind to the truth of gospel. The best way to deceive a believer would be to get them to believe they are hearing from God while getting them to do things that God condemns.

Praying to dead saints and to Mary is no different to John Edward (if he really is genuine) who says he can communicate with the dead.

From what I've read, this supposed apparition of Mary at Fatima, Mary points to herself more than God or Jesus.

"I (Mary) will never leave you. My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God"

I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me". John 14:6

Just as Genesis 3:1 describes the serpent, satan can be very subtle.

you "feel"??

I feel it is a Catholic web site promoting Mary.

What do others feel?

Our feelings can deceive us.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

 

[Defensor Christi]

Satan can mix truth with lies to make believers swallow a lie with the truth.
This exactly what he did with Eve.

That is why the Church examines the content of the appearance...when the Blessed Virgin is telling us to repent and turn to Jesus, I think Satan may want to rethink the strategy...

It is like the Pharisees who accused Jesus of casting out demons with demons...didnt add up then, doesnt now...

I (Mary) will never leave you. My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God

What is her Immaculate Heart?

 

[BobRyan]

you seem to find very obscure references to support your arguments

like some random magazine from the 1990's

so when you post some obscure website I feel apprehensive

Do you feel this Catholic magazine does not exist?

Catholic Digest | The Magazine for Catholic Living

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

What is her Immaculate Heart?

I, for one, honestly have no idea. I have a very high Mariology relative to other Lutherans, but post-Tridentine Marian devotion makes little sense to me.

 

[Defensor Christi]

I, for one, honestly have no idea. I have a very high Mariology relative to other Lutherans, but post-Tridentine Marian devotion makes little sense to me.

The Immaculate Heart of Mary is a devotional name used to refer to the interior life of the Blessed Virgin Mary, her joys and sorrows, her virtues and hidden perfections, and, above all, her virginal love for God the Father, her maternal love for her son Jesus, and her compassionate love for all people

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Devotion To the Heart of Mary

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

The Immaculate Heart of Mary is a devotional name used to refer to the interior life of the Blessed Virgin Mary, her joys and sorrows, her virtues and hidden perfections, and, above all, her virginal love for God the Father, her maternal love for her son Jesus, and her compassionate love for all people

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Devotion To the Heart of Mary

OK, well that makes sense. And I can certainly see how that could be an inspiration to Christians, but a refuge and the way to God? That takes Mary out of her role as the Christian par excellence and into the realm of Christ-as-savior.

 

[Targaryen]

OK, well that makes sense. And I can certainly see how that could be an inspiration to Christians, but a refuge and the way to God? That takes Mary out of her role as the Christian par excellence and into the realm of Christ-as-savior.

I do have to concur with GCC's point of view here as well.

Some of the Marian concepts I get, but things like this kinda strike me funny. This idea and the idea of co-redemptrix just fell like an over reaching of her role as first among the saints and Theotokos and into some paralels with Gnosticism to me.

I'm probably going to get barked at for that, but it does strike me odd.

 

[Defensor Christi]

OK, well that makes sense. And I can certainly see how that could be an inspiration to Christians, but a refuge and the way to God? That takes Mary out of her role as the Christian par excellence and into the realm of Christ-as-savior.

Once you understand that Mary's heart, spiritually speaking, is literally Christ things become clearer...

I do have to concur with GCC's point of view here as well.

Some of the Marian concepts I get, but things like this kinda strike me funny. This idea and the idea of co-redemptrix just fell like an over reaching of her role as first among the saints and Theotokos and into some paralels with Gnosticism to me.

I'm probably going to get barked at for that, but it does strike me odd.

No barking my friend...

The "co-" prefix in co-Redemptrix refers to Mary's cooperation with us; it does not mean that Mary is co-Redeemer, not even with and under Christ. (The "co-" prefix should not be capitalized, since it refers to our mere human efforts towards our salvation; the "R" in co-Redemptrix should be capitalized since it refers to Divine efforts towards our salvation.)

Mary as co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocatrix

 

[Rhamiel]

I doesn't matter what we believe, what matters is the truth. Saying "I do not believe" or "I do not feel" are based on emotion, and emotions can blind us. Jeremiah17:9

Satan can mix truth with lies to make believers swallow a lie with the truth.
This exactly what he did with Eve.

Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

He told the truth about their eyes being opened and knowing good from evil but he lied about them not dying.

Satan even quotes scripture to Jesus to try and make him sin.

In Acts 16:16 we read of a spirit of divination proclaiming: "These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation."

I would say satan knows the bible better than some people here do.

For satan the best way to keep an unbeliever deceived would be to keep them blind to the truth of gospel. The best way to deceive a believer would be to get them to believe they are hearing from God while getting them to do things that God condemns.

Praying to dead saints and to Mary is no different to John Edward (if he really is genuine) who says he can communicate with the dead.

From what I've read, this supposed apparition of Mary at Fatima, Mary points to herself more than God or Jesus.

"I (Mary) will never leave you. My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God"

I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me". John 14:6

Just as Genesis 3:1 describes the serpent, satan can be very subtle.



Our feelings can deceive us.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

you mention the truth of the Gospel

Jesus died so that your sins can be forgiven
repent of your sins
pray to Jesus
pray for other people that they will repent of their sins

while the devil can mix truth and lies, I do not think the evil spirit can preach Gospel truth, I do not think the Adversary can preach saving words.

as for saying that intercessory prayers to the Saints is the same thing as a spiritual medium, that is insulting
I am surprised that other Protestants did not call you out on such a low view of Catholic Theology

 

[MoreCoffee]

I doesn't matter what we believe, what matters is the truth. ...

So much for sola fide

 

[Albion]

as for saying that intercessory prayers to the Saints is the same thing as a spiritual medium, that is insulting
I am surprised that other Protestants did not call you out on such a low view of Catholic Theology

I guess that the one-sidedness of that outrage might have neutralized any such urge.

 

[Rhamiel]

I guess that the one-sidedness of that outrage might have neutralized any such urge.

GCC and LiberalAnglicanCatholic have both been critical of Marian Devotion while remaining respectful.
To see such a blatantly false thing being said should be shocking to all Christians who have a respect for the truth

 

[Albion]

GCC and LiberalAnglicanCatholic have both been critical of Marian Devotion while remaining respectful.
To see such a blatantly false thing being said should be shocking to all Christians who have a respect for the truth

In case I was too subtle in the previous post, try checking for the log in your own eye.

 

[Targaryen]

I guess that the one-sidedness of that outrage might have neutralized any such urge.

Really? What outrage exists really?

The majority of most protestants is they may not even understand the concept of prayer to the saints for intercession, and if they do, it's critical yet usually respectful.

So who's outrage are you speaking about? Yours? Radical protestants? Whose?

 

[Albion]

Really? What outrage exists really?

I guess you can ask him. All I can do is refer you to his two most recent posts.

 

[Targaryen]

I guess you can ask him. All I can do is refer you to his two most recent posts.

No I'm asking YOU, since you were the one that mentioned some "outrage".

So far, only the usual suspects are raising any "outrage". I see everyone else having a respectful discussion, if not seeing entirely eye to eye.

So I ask again....who's outrage are you speaking for?