Marian apparitions...are they for real or a hoax?

[yogosans14]

Some of it. Although it's teaches salvation by works so by default its heretical.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Some of it. Although it's teaches salvation by works so by default its heretical.

I do not know what it teaches.

The rosary, however, teaches about Jesus Christ, his incarnation, his suffering and death, his resurrection and ascension, his rule over all things, and the hope of salvation offered to all who come to Jesus in faith.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Christ isn't dead in any sense, but is totally bodily alive in heaven. Do you have a problem having a relationship with him?

And be honest- I think sometimes it can be hard. But if Mary is alive and if she can hear and intercede for us, I don't see why it would be harder to have a relationship with her than it would with Christ.

Your polytheism argument is better.

Thank you. I take your point concerning Christ. The principal difference with Christ is the fact that he was bodily resurrected and appeared to the Apostles as well as more than 500 brethren at one time and one can trust their witness. OTOH, we have considerably less confidence concerning the saints and their roles and abilities in heaven.

 

[bbbbbbb]

All miracles performed by the saints are done through God. Otherwise what of Peter and Paul healing people of illnesses, raising people from the dead and casting out demons? Doesn't your argument equally apply in these cases where men do things which are only possible for God to do?

If the saints can hear multiple simultaneous requests it is only because God is pleased to allow it.

Nevertheless, we know that Peter and Paul were utterly incapable of hearing the appeals of any individual out of earshot. They were not omnipresent nor omniscient. God remains God and does not divest Himself of His divine attributes.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It may be, I have never read it. Have you?

I have and it is about Jesus Christ, as is the Qu'ran.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee

The Rosary is about Jesus; do you know the mysteries of the rosary? Let me show you:
​

The book of Mormon is also about Jesus.

It may be, I have never read it. Have you?

I have and it is about Jesus Christ, as is the Qu'ran.

I always found that interesting, as they also believe in the virgin birth of Jesus [which the Jews vehemently deny] and they revere Mary just as much as the RCC and EOC do...IMHO.

Islam also believe Jesus was sent just to the Jews, whereas they believe Muhammad was sent to the world, whereas Christianity views Paul as that one.
At least that is what I have read.

Muhammad: Only mentioned 4 times in the Quran. What’s up with that? « Critical Thinking - A World View

The name Muhammad is mentioned four times in the Qur’an.
The particular instances follow::...............

Let us compare how many times Jesus was mentioned in the Quran over 25 times:.............

[61:6] And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: “O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.” But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, “this is evident sorcery!”

http://www.christianforums.com/t5615012-46/#post36126961
Jesus Christ, was he sent for all mankind?

Hello.We muslims believe he was sent to the sons of Israel not for all mankind.This doesnt mean the one who follows Him in real does a wrong job but this is God's plan for He sent Muhammed-aleyhissalam-to all mankind.
Which proofs do christians have to claim that Jesus was sent to entire humanity and not only to the israelites?

.

 

[MoreCoffee]

[Mormons] revere Mary just as much as the RCC and EOC do...IMHO.

I do not believe that statement.

 

[Albion]

The book of Mormon is also about Jesus.

That seems fair to say. It's certainly as much about Jesus as the rosary is.

The rosary, for people who don't know, is a devotion to Mary and was, by legend, given to mankind for us to use in prayer to her. It is called a 'rosary' because reciting it is compared to a garland or bouquet of roses being presented to the one, Mary, who is being venerated and petitioned. That's also why you can still purchase rosaries in which the beads are actually rolled up rose petals and why many which use wood or some other material instead have the beads carved to look like miniature rose buds.

In time, the RCC added episodes in the life of Jesus that the one praying is supposed to "meditate on" while repeating the "Hail MARY" prayer over fifty times.

 

[MoreCoffee]

That seems fair to say. It's certainly as much about Jesus as the rosary is.

Latter day saints accept the book of Mormon as scripture, do you?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by bbbbbbb

I have and it is about Jesus Christ, as is the Qu'ran.
​

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

[Mormons] revere Mary just as much as the RCC and EOC do...IMHO.
​

I do not believe that statement.

I was referring to the Muslims' Quran, in response to bbbbbbb's post.
But, whatever

I always found that interesting, as they also believe in the virgin birth of Jesus [which the Jews vehemently deny] and they revere Mary just as much as the RCC and EOC do...IMHO.

Islam also believe Jesus was sent just to the Jews, whereas they believe Muhammad was sent to the world, whereas Christianity views Paul as that one.
At least that is what I have read.

.

 

[MrMoe]

Doesn't all that mean that faith alone is not enough?

Christian faith is not blind faith. The definition of blind faith is belief without true understanding, perception, or discrimination.
Christian faith is based on reason, decrement and wisdom which is always logical. Blind faith is based on emotion which is often illogical.

YOUR interpretation of scripture you mean...

There is only one version of the truth. Two opposing interpretations cannot be both right. Either one is wrong and one is right.

I would be interested in seeing that in context...

I can't think of any context other than it being a work of fiction where his words would not be blasphemous.

'The book was written at a time when some Jansenists (which were declared heretical by the Pope) were criticizing Marian devotions, and was written in part as a defense of Marian devotion.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Glories_of_Mary

The whole book is up online if you want to read it.

He also says we can get what we want faster if we pray through Mary instead of Jesus.

but, even IF he did say that, his opinion isnt binding upon the Church nor is it in line with the Church...suprise AGAIN!!

Good thing I never made that claim. I was only disproving your claim that no one has said Mary was necessary for salvation.

How bout some context? How bout a link? I dislike personal intrepretation VERY much...

Essential: The Facts: The Story of Fatima (II)
Mary's words at Fatima

Here's one quote from this apparition:

"Only I can help you. My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God."

So apparently God and Jesus are unable to help. She says she will be their refuge and the way that will lead them to God even though Jesus told those who were weary and heavy laden to come to him and that he was the only way to God.

This quote alone are enough to show this is not the Mary of the bible.

See...three verses does not context make...this is usually the biggest problem.

Okay tell me what the context is then. You've got a bible, you've read this gospel haven't you?
You can't expect me to spoon feed you everything.

How does requesting repentance and directing worship to God benefit him? ...does not compute....

Acts 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

What was Paul preaching was the way to salvation? Jesus!

Tell me what do you think this spirit of divination's intentions were in saying this?

Again context is key...what was St. Paul specifically warning against?

He was warning against false apostles and workers transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.

Here's the entire chapter:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2

How do you know she didnt?

You're the one making the positive claim so you're the one who has to proof it.
I doubt she had compassion for those who spat in Jesus's face, those who lashed him and nailed him to the cross.

The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church in communion with the Holy See...specific enough?

It sounds like the catholic church thinks Jesus has more than one body....

Personal preference...

What does the roman catholic church say about praying to non canonized saints? Is it allowed?

I do not know what it teaches.

The rosary, however, teaches about Jesus Christ, his incarnation, his suffering and death, his resurrection and ascension, his rule over all things, and the hope of salvation offered to all who come to Jesus in faith.

Then why does this rosary say:

'Sweet Heart of Jesus, be my love'.​

Sweet Heart of Mary, be my salvation'.​

https://www.saint-mike.org/library/chaplets/rosary_sacred_heart.html

It would sound less blasphemous if the names were switched but this....

 

[Albion]

The rosary, however, teaches about Jesus Christ, his incarnation, his suffering and death, his resurrection and ascension, his rule over all things, and the hope of salvation offered to all who come to Jesus in faith.

Actually, the rosary doesn't "teach" any of that. In recent years, the church has appointed a series of events in Christ's life about which the user is to meditate while praying to Mary. The people are assumed to know about these events already.

 

[yogosans14]

I payed the rosary one time in my life it felt so embrassing and awkward with all the hail Mary's I was repeating.

 

[prodromos]

I payed the rosary one time in my life it felt so embrassing and awkward with all the hail Mary's I was repeating.

Since the "Hail Mary" is essentially two verses from Luke's Gospel, you found it embarrassing and awkward to repeat Scripture?

 

[yogosans14]

Since the "Hail Mary" is essentially two verses from Luke's Gospel, you found it embarrassing and awkward to repeat Scripture?

No. It was embarrassing because I know it would have been more useful to pray directly to the Trinity.

 

[prodromos]

No. It was embarrassing because I know it would have been more useful to pray directly to the Trinity.

Is it not useful to ask others to pray for us? I think you have missed the point of intercessory prayer, it builds up love between the members of Christ's body.

 

[Defensor Christi]

There is only one version of the truth. Two opposing interpretations cannot be both right. Either one is wrong and one is right.

AMEN!! And why are you so sure you have it right?

He also says we can get what we want faster if we pray through Mary instead of Jesus.

Again...so what?

Good thing I never made that claim. I was only disproving your claim that no one has said Mary was necessary for salvation.

LOL...nice job finding SOMEONE who says what you believe the entire universal church believes...

Here's one quote from this apparition:

"Only I can help you. My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God."

So apparently God and Jesus are unable to help. She says she will be their refuge and the way that will lead them to God even though Jesus told those who were weary and heavy laden to come to him and that he was the only way to God.

This quote alone are enough to show this is not the Mary of the bible.

LOL...again, quote pulling to dismiss context, love it. P.S didnt we talk about WHAT the immaculate heart of Mary was? hmmmm....

Okay tell me what the context is then. You've got a bible, you've read this gospel haven't you?
You can't expect me to spoon feed you everything.

No, I expect you to view the entire context of the passage/chapter/book in light of history, context and peoples it was directed to. That's the problem protestants pull passages and stretch them to fit their personal interpretation of scripture...that is my point.

You're the one making the positive claim so you're the one who has to proof it.
I doubt she had compassion for those who spat in Jesus's face, those who lashed him and nailed him to the cross.

She said it, ask her when you get there...I wouldnt doubt anyone's level of compassion...aren't we taught to forgive? To have compassion...perhaps YOU would have difficulty, that doesnt mean everyone would.

It sounds like the catholic church thinks Jesus has more than one body....

If you say so...

What does the roman catholic church say about praying to non canonized saints? Is it allowed?

You have the internet, look it up...do you expect me to spoonfeed you everything... LOL!!

Then why does this rosary say:

'Sweet Heart of Jesus, be my love'.​

Sweet Heart of Mary, be my salvation'.​

https://www.saint-mike.org/library/chaplets/rosary_sacred_heart.html

It would sound less blasphemous if the names were switched but this....

That isnt THE Rosary, that is a devotional chaplet...regardless, AGAIN...what IS the heart of Mary?

 

[Albion]

Is it not useful to ask others to pray for us?

It might be, but it's hard to argue against the point that you can't beat going straight to God himself. In addition, it does no good to pray to people who aren't in heaven, I hope you'd agree, and it's absolutely wrong to treat them as demigods in your prayer and devotions, all the rest of this aside.

I think you have missed the point of intercessory prayer, it builds up love between the members of Christ's body.

So petitioning spirits to intercede with God is only a diversion? The real purpose is to "build up love between members of Christ's body?"

Most people doing the praying don't know this and actually think that the saint will and can help them. I hold responsible any church that encourages such devotions.

 

[MKJ]

No. It was embarrassing because I know it would have been more useful to pray directly to the Trinity.

There are different kinds of prayers, you know.

The rosary is a kind of meditation. You aren't asking for things, either for yourself or others. You are thinking about the nature of Christ and especially the Incarnation.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

No. It was embarrassing because I know it would have been more useful to pray directly to the Trinity.

Do you believe you are more righteous than Mary?

Do you believe scripture which tells us that the prayers of the righteous are powerful and effective?