Man does not have an "immortal" soul.

[Super Kal]

I've never heard of a single Calvinist with your beliefs on the soul and hell and I was a Calvinist for over 40 years and have a library full of Calvinist books, theologies, the Institutes, the WCF etc......

Chris Date, one of the leading members of Rethinking Hell, is a Calvinist. if you're interested in that sort of thing, im sure he'll answer your questions

You claim that "Part of the definition of immortal is, "having no beginning or end."" I have never seen that as the definition...

im quoting this part because it's the part that stuck out to me the most. the Greek Gnostics claimed that if the soul goes on consciously living after the death of the body, it must be eternal and without beginning. they also believed this about creation itself, and taught uniformitarianism.

Irenaeus actually wrote to some affect on this particular belief concerning immortality in his Against Heresies, and that both the universe and man himself are mortal because the world had a beginning and that man also had a beginning... he also stated that the soul has the capability of living forever, but not without Christ giving them that ability.

"all things which proceed from [God], whatsoever have been made, and are made, do indeed receive their own beginning of generation, and on this account are inferior to Him who formed them, inasmuch as they are not unbegotten. Nevertheless they endure, and extend their existence into a long series of ages in accordance with the will of God their Creator; so that He grants them that they should be thus formed at the beginning, and that they should so exist afterwards.

"For as the heaven which is above us, the firmament, the sun, the moon, the rest of the stars, and all their grandeur, although they had no previous existence, were called into being, and continue throughout a long course of time according to the will of God, so also any one who thinks thus respecting souls and spirits, and, in fact, respecting all created things, will not by any means go far astray, inasmuch as all things that have been made had a beginning when they were formed, but endure as long as God wills that they should have an existence and continuance."

Hell is real and Jesus spoke about it more than anyone else.

Jesus never used the word "hell". the "proof texts" used by traditionalists, such as Mark 9:43-48, the word "Gehenna" is used, not "hell", and even then, when Jesus talks about the "Gehenna fire", He alludes back to the Old Testament verse Isaiah 66:24, which describes dead, rotting corpses being burnt up by fire and eaten by worms. that imagery does not emphasize any typre of "eternal life in torment", but complete and total consumption.

and Jesus did not talk about it more than anyone else... if we're going by how many times the word "hell" is mentioned, then the writers of the Old Testament have that claim hands down, but i know what you're getting at...
Jesus also did not talk about hell more than He did heaven. Traditionalists make this ignorant claim time and time again as if somehow it validates their interpretation of eternal torment... and yes, i can use the term "ignorant", because those who make this claim truly are.
i've actually counted how many times Jesus actually talks about hell and the punishment of the wicked compared to how many times He talks about heaven and the rewards of the righteous...

my first count didnt include the term "life" into it (such as "everlasting life"), and the first list, Jesus talked about heaven and the rewards of the righteous just shy of twice as much as He did hell and the punishment of the wicked.

when you include the term "life" in context of "everlasting life", as opposed to "eternal punishment" in Matthew 25:46, Jesus talks about heaven and the rewards of the righteous almost three times more than He does hell and the punishment of the wicked.

and even IF Jesus talked more about the punishment of the wicked than the rewards of the righteous, that does not validate eternal torment... all it would truly do is validate that there is a final punishment for the wicked, which i wholeheartedly beleive there is, and will be, a final punishment of the wicked, not a "correction", but a punishment, a punishment that has ending results that will be everlasting, but the duration of the act that causes the end result will not be everlasting.

otherwise, Matthew 25:46 would have the verb form of the word "punish"- "everlasting punishing", but it doesn't. it has a noun of action, "punishment"... the words "redemption" and "judgment" are nouns of action as well.
"redemption" specifically, because we see the word used in conjunction with "everlasting' in Hebrews 9:12, and the use of that phrase describes the end result of the noun being eternal, not the duration of the noun.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

and Jesus did not talk about it more than anyone else... if we're going by how many times the word "hell" is mentioned, then the writers of the Old Testament have that claim hands down, but i know what you're getting at...
Jesus also did not talk about hell more than He did heaven. Traditionalists make this ignorant claim time and time again as if somehow it validates their interpretation of eternal torment... and yes, i can use the term "ignorant", because those who make this claim truly are.
i've actually counted how many times Jesus actually talks about hell and the punishment of the wicked compared to how many times He talks about heaven and the rewards of the righteous...

my first count didnt include the term "life" into it (such as "everlasting life"), and the first list, Jesus talked about heaven and the rewards of the righteous just shy of twice as much as He did hell and the punishment of the wicked.

when you include the term "life" in context of "everlasting life", as opposed to "eternal punishment" in Matthew 25:46, Jesus talks about heaven and the rewards of the righteous almost three times more than He does hell and the punishment of the wicked.

and even IF Jesus talked more about the punishment of the wicked than the rewards of the righteous, that does not validate eternal torment... all it would truly do is validate that there is a final punishment for the wicked, which i wholeheartedly beleive there is, and will be, a final punishment of the wicked, not a "correction", but a punishment, a punishment that has ending results that will be everlasting, but the duration of the act that causes the end result will not be everlasting.

otherwise, Matthew 25:46 would have the verb form of the word "punish"- "everlasting punishing", but it doesn't. it has a noun of action, "punishment"... the words "redemption" and "judgment" are nouns of action as well.
"redemption" specifically, because we see the word used in conjunction with "everlasting' in Hebrews 9:12, and the use of that phrase describes the end result of the noun being eternal, not the duration of the noun.

The bible is very clear that there is eternal torment for the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife.

Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'

Matthew 8:11-13
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:41-43
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matthew 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13-14
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matthew 24:48-51
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:29-30
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



2 Peter 2:1-9
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.


Jude 4-7, 12-13
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm — shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted — twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.



Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Revelation 19:20-21
20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Scripture uses these terms and phrases as synonyms:

Unquenchable fire
Fiery hell
Black darkness
Outer darkness
Furnace of fire
Fire and brimstone
The smoke of their torment
The lake of fire which burns with brimstone
Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched
The eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels

All of the above carry the same meaning and consequences for the wicked.

The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).

The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. Got ?



NT:166

"The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in 2 Cor 4:18, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., 'for a season,' and in Philem 15, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, Rom 16:26; of His power, 1 Tim 6:16, and of His glory, 1 Peter 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, Heb 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ, Heb 9:12, and of the consequent salvation of men, 5:9, as well as of His future rule, 2 Peter 1:11, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luke 1:33; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, John 3:16, concerning whom He said, 'they shall never perish,' 10:28, and of the resurrection body, 2 Cor 5:1, elsewhere said to be 'immortal,' 1 Cor 15:53, in which that life will be finally realized, Matt 25:46; Titus 1:2.


(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)


hope this helps !!!

 

[Der Alte]

* * *
Jesus never used the word "hell". the "proof texts" used by traditionalists, such as Mark 9:43-48, the word "Gehenna" is used, not "hell", and even then, when Jesus talks about the "Gehenna fire", He alludes back to the Old Testament verse Isaiah 66:24, which describes dead, rotting corpses being burnt up by fire and eaten by worms. that imagery does not emphasize any typre of "eternal life in torment", but complete and total consumption.* * *

A lot of internet nonsense is being passed off as fact here. While the English word "Hell" does not occur in the Greek Bible the concept of "Hell" among the Jews dates back to at least 700-800 BC.
I invite you to read two of my posts earlier in this thread for the truth about "Hell" in the Bible.
Post #15
Man does not have an "immortal" soul.

Post #16
Man does not have an "immortal" soul.
If you want to disagree with me about this do it from those two posts, after you have read them.

otherwise, Matthew 25:46 would have the verb form of the word "punish"- "everlasting punishing", but it doesn't. it has a noun of action, "punishment"... the words "redemption" and "judgment" are nouns of action as well.
"redemption" specifically, because we see the word used in conjunction with "everlasting' in Hebrews 9:12, and the use of that phrase describes the end result of the noun being eternal, not the duration of the noun.

That is not correct! If this is true then "Eternal Life" would have to be "eternal living."
Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church from its inception, 2000 years +/- ago. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the meaning of the Greek words in the NT?

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [aionios] punishment, [kolasis] but the righteous into eternal life.”[1]

The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T. the other occurrence is 1 John 4:18

EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

Note. the one who has "kolasis" is not made perfect, not corrected.

 

[Der Alte]

Scripture does not teach of a place called "hell," a place of eternal punishment. Thus, I don't believe in a place called hell. I know what is found in the translations, but one fact is that the English word "hell" wasn't created until the 700s AD. The original meaning was "to cover." There is no biblical Hebrew or Greek word that can be translated into the English word "hell." The translators forced the word into their work because they believed in "hell." But I am not here to teach about "hell" in this post. Rather I am going to debunk false teaching that is absolutely necessary to teach "hell," a place of eternal punishment and torture. In order for people to suffer "eternally" must mean that all people have immortality, commonly stated as "the immortal soul."
My first question is where in Scripture is it stated, book, chapter, verse, that man is immortal? Or that he has an immortal soul? You can look, you can twist verses, but you won't find this taught in Scripture. Part of the definition of immortal is, "having no beginning or end." If I'm not mistaken, all people have a beginning, they don't exist until the sperm penetrates the egg. When God made the physical body of Adam, Adam wasn't alive until God gave him the breath of life. Adam didn't come to life because his "immortal soul," floating around somewhere, entered his body. If men's souls are immortal, then they would have to be in existence for as long as God and definitely around before God created anything. Scripture does not teach this. You will never find the phrase, "immortal soul" in Scripture. One of the biggest rules of studying and teaching Scripture is if it can't be shown in the bible, it's unbiblical.
I realize that because of the English translations and how certain verses are phrased in the translations, it is easy to believe that along with the immaterial spirit, there is another immaterial part of the body, known as the "soul." This is why it is crucial to study the original words of the original texts, Jewish culture and how the Jews wrote and spoke, and the Jewish meaning and context of words.
If you look up the Hebrew word for "soul", nephesh, it is defined as: a breathing creature, man or animal, vitality. used very widely in a literal or figurative sense. any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, dead, desire, discontented, fish, greedy, peril of life, lust, man, self, slay, they, thing, would have it. Hmm, no definition of "immortal soul." The word is used 755 times in the Old Testament. The KJV uses 42 different terms to translate it. The two most common uses for the word are either a living being or life principle. It is also translated as corpse, living creature, individual(s), remeant, dead, throat, discerning, hungry, breathing, neck, thirst, hate, gluttony, barrenness, justice, grief, joy, unhappiness, consciousness, thought or reputation. By no stretch can you relate any of these translations to "immortal soul." In the Old Testament, there is absolutely no teaching of man having an "immortal soul." In the Hebrew understanding, man is a living soul rather than man having a soul.
In the New Testament Greek, the word for "soul" comes from psuche: breath, heart, life, mind, us, you. It is also translated as spirit, life, person, Again, no hint of "immortal soul." We are as the animals in that animals also have a soul, a life force. It is the spirit that seperates man from mere animals, because of the spirit of man can interact with God. God/Jesus/Holy Spirit all work through the spirit, John 6:63. There are spiritual truths, the kingdom of God is spiritual, (It's here now, Jesus brought it to earth, John 18:36.)
Scripture clearly teaches that only God is immortal, 1Tim 1:17, 1Tim 6:15-16. According to verse 16, only God is immortal! If God is the only being who is immortal, then man does not have immortality!
But doesn't Scripture teach that believers will have eternal life? Yes. In order to live eternal lives, don't people have to be immortal? Yes again. Believers aren't immortal yet, but will become immortal after Jesus returns the second time,( not a third time as those who believe in the "rapture" must believe. In the Old Testament, the prophecies only teach that Jesus comes twice, not three times. There is no teaching of the rapture in the Old Testament.)
John 3:14-16, 6:27, 40, 47, 10:28, 17:2
Rom 2:7, 6:23
1Cor 15:51-54
1John 2:25, 5:13.
Nowhere are the unforgiven, evil, wicked, reprobates, ungodly, children of wrath, children of the devil, goats, etc., promised eternal life.
Some food for thought. One of the most important verses for non-preachers is Acts 17:11, ...and they searched the Scripture daily, whether these things were so. I know this verse is read by preachers, but they only read the verse, they don't teach or fully explain it. Why? Because the preachers don't want the people who listen to them to check out if what they are teaching is true or even found in Scripture. Rather than Paul chastising them for checking out what he was teaching, Paul praised them! Paul was teaching Scripture, so he had no fear of being caught in a lie(s). Those people were open and eager for what Paul was teaching, they just wanted to see it in Scripture for themselves! That is why I always list verses and define words, so the readers can see things for themselves. When people are taught something new, when is the lesson most effective, and has the greatest impact? When the one being taught realizes for themselves the truth of what is being taught! When the light clicks on! I enjoy teaching Scripture. And my main goal is to expose false teaching and teach the truth. But, anybody who is a true believer should want to see if they are being taught truth and to learn things for themselves. You don't have to go to a seminary or bible college to study Scripture for yourself. You don't have to be a super brain to learn what Scripture teaches. Anyone that has normal intelligence and can read can study Scripture for themselves. You just need the proper study tools and the desire to learn. A basic library for bible study will include:
A Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. This book list's every single English word in the KJV. It also shows you which verses use the word. In the back are Hebrew and Greek dictionaries, which show the original word in the original languages used in Scripture and define the words. This tool alone will show you mistakes and errors in the English translations.
A Hebrew Lexicon and a Greek Lexicon. While Strong's is a valuable tool, the definitions are often limited. Most of the original words in Scripture have many different shades of meaning and a Lexicon will further break down the different shades as to provide the proper context of what was written down by the original writers.
Use some commentaries. It is funny that most preachers downplay using commentaries, their favorite line is, "Well commentaries are good for background information, but they are not Scripture." They say this because they know much of what they themselves teach contradicts the true theological meaning of Scripture. God forbid someone in a pew catch a preacher in a lie or know more about a doctrine than the preacher! You don't have to buy any commentaries because an excellent bible tool, called Bible Hub, is free to access on the net. They have about 30 different commentaries you can read from. Don't hesitate to read different commentaries as they all don't agree and each commentary gets some things right and some things wrong. Bible Hub also gives different Bible translations of a verse, another helpful option.
Get one or two bible dictionaries. A Bible dictionary is not like Webster's, while it does define words, it also explains other biblical things, places, events, the meaning of names in the bible, characters, etc.
Get some books that are titled "Manners and Customs of the Jews." There are about 20 of these different books available. These will explain many of the things you read in Scripture that are hard to understand or make no sense in English.
A Bible handbook, Hailey's or Unger's is good.
Nave's Topical Bible. I love this tool. It lists every single topic and sub-topic in Scripture and lists all of the verses involved with the topic and sub-topic. One of the favorite tricks, methods of false teaching, is to only use certain selected verses. In order to fully understand all of the counsel of God is to look at most or all of the verses connected to teaching or a specific topic.
Just these tools alone will enable anyone to increase their knowledge and understanding of Scripture. And you will start recognizing lies when you hear them. Something I never realized until I started studying Scripture for myself, mainly because no one I listened to ever pointed it out, was that the Bible is not two separate books, one for the Jews and one for Gentiles. The New Testament is not something "new," meaning new teaching. The New Testament is simply a continuation of the Old Testament. All of Scripture is a Jewish book for Jews and Gentile believers, written by Jewish men, from a Jewish culture who all taught things based on the Old Testament. Scripture can only be truly understood when read through a Jewish lens and a Jewish mindset. For those of you who are interested in broadening your understanding of the "Jewishness" of Scripture, I would strongly recommend that you obtain the following:
Jewish Jesus, by David Hoffbrand
Christian fruit-Jewish Roots, by John D Garr.
Both of these are available at Amazon or on Kindle. If you read them, you will get excited about learning more about Scripture. There are also different books that cover, "The difficult/hard sayings of Jesus," I would also recommend.
I know there is a big debate about which is the "best" translation or version of the Bible. What is more important, the words on paper in the English translations or the original meaning of the words? How many times do you come across a verse or passage in the Bible thats makes no sense in an English translation? What did Jesus mean in Lk 23:31? What did Jesus mean when he said, "The eye is the light of the body," Mat 6:22? What is the real meaning of "bind and loose?" What does, " the weeping and nashing of teeth" mean?
There are two translations that help explain the Jewish meaning of things in Scripture:
The One New man Bible. The sub-title reads, "Reavealing Jewish Roots and Power."
The Complete Jewish Study Bible.
I am not getting paid to plug these books. I have purchased and read each one and my understanding was greatly increased.

If God wants the sun to stand still. He can make it happen. If God wants a bush to burn but not be consumed, he can make it happen. If God wants three of His children who were thrown into a furnace to not be injured, He can make that happen.
Here is a link to the 1952 BDB Hebrew lexicon.
A Hebrew and English lexicon of the Old Testament, with an appendix containing the Biblical Aramaic : Brown, Francis, 1849-1916 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[Super Kal]

The bible is very clear that there is eternal torment for the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife.

actually, it's not. scripture is quite clear that the wicked will be consumed by the lake of fire, not live forever in torment. to suggest that eternal torment is true is to call Jesus a liar because it was Jesus that both body and soul will be destroyed in Gehenna, Matthew 10:28.. but i'll humor you, and review these alleged "proof texts" you give

Mark 9:42-48

i mentioned this already in the post you quoted... this goes to show you dont actually read comments.
this scripture is a reference to isaiah 66:24

“And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

a corpse is a dead body. it has no life. it is not alive. it is being consumed by fire and maggots. this is the imagery that jesus is conveying to His audience in Mark 9, not living forever in torment.

next

Matthew 8:11-13

nothing in the verse you cite says anything about eternal torment. it only mentions "the outer darkness". nothing in that phrase says the wicked receive immortality. as a matter of fact, the next phrase "weeping and gnashign of teeth" is also found in other parts of scripture

Psalms 112:10
The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.

they melt away. not live forever in torment.

next

Matthew 13:41-43

once again, says nothing about man receiving immortality, or living forever in torment... it only talks of a furnace of fire. once again, you're forced your own opinion into scripture. this also has the phrase "weeping and gnashing of teeth". look above at the previous "proof text" you shared for further explanation

next

Matthew 13:49-50
Matthew 22:13-14
Matthew 24:48-51
Matthew 25:29-30

i've already addressed the instances you've highlighted in these verses in the comments above. none of the text you highlight speaks of immortality or torment.

next

2 Peter 2:1-9

this is how i know you just went to some website and copied and pasted whatever "proof" they had, and didnt even bother actually reading any of it.

i dont even think you even know what this says, let alone understand it, because if you did, you wouldnt use it as a "proof text"...

2 Peter 2:6
"if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes He condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;"

Jude 4-7, 12-13

same thing goes for these alleged "proof texts"
Jude speaks fo Sodom and Gomorrah, and how their fate is an example of what will happen to the ungodly... what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah?
"turned to ashes". "condemned to extinction".
not living in torment.

Revelation 21:8

the last of the verse explains it for me.
"this is the second death". not the "second immortality", or the "second eternal life"

Revelation 19:20-21
Revelation 20:10

these two verse describe what happen to a fallen angel, not humans. there are some conditionalists who believe that these individuals will live forever in torment, because of what Luke says about angels. other Conditionalists believe otherwise. i believe the latter because these are fallen angels, and at this time, their immortality is taken away from them

Revelation 20:12-15

once again, the verse proves you wrong:
"this is the second death"

Scripture uses these terms and phrases as synonyms:
Unquenchable fire
Fiery hell
Black darkness
Outer darkness
Furnace of fire
Fire and brimstone

to which none of these say the wicked are given eternal life.

The smoke of their torment

the "smoke" of their torment".
not the screams of their torment. smoke is whats left over. smoke and ashes, as 2 Peter 2:6 says

The lake of fire which burns with brimstone
Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched
The eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels

all of which say absolutely nothing about the wicked receiving the gift of eternal lfie

The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).

matthew

The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46).

that's not what the verse says. whatever website you quoted just twisted the scripture. the verse uses the phrase "eternal punishment". it does nto say 'eternal punishing"/ "punishment" is not a verb, it is a nou of action which denotes the end resutlr of said action, not the duration of said action. the same thing goes for the phrase "eternal redepmtion", Hebrews 9:12

Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10).

once again, this is a flat out lie. this verse never once mentiones hell or the punishment of the wicked. this is forcing an opinion into scripture, eisegesis.

Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5)

the website you quote from is now throwing in verses that have absolutely nothign to do with the final punishment of the wicked.

3 For I proclaim the name of the Lord:
Ascribe greatness to our God.
4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect;
For all His ways are justice,
A God of truth and without injustice;
Righteous and upright is He.

5 “They have corrupted themselves;
They are not His children,
Because of their blemish:
A perverse and crooked generation.

nothing in these verses describe what this website claims it says.

you quote from Vines as somehow it explains how man can live forever without Jesus Christ... the plain truth of the matter is this: man CANNOT live forever without Jesus Christ. God, and God ALONE has immortality naturally, 1 Timothy 6:13-16
we must seek out immortality, we do not have it inherently, Romans 2:6-8
the wages of our sin is death, not eternal life in torment, Romans 6:23

it was the devil who first said man would live forever, not Jesus. it was the first lie that the devil ever told to man, Genesis 3:4

hope this helps !!!

all you've done is show me how you copied and pasted something from another website without actually reading what was actually said.

this might have come across as rude to you right, and at the beginning, i wasnt trying to be rude, but i find it annoying and down right insulting, because you didnt even bother to read what i wrote... heck you didnt even read what the website said, you just copied and pasted it. you didnt even proof read the verses used to see if it actually says what they say it says. i at least tried to actually make a post that makes ense and doesnt plagarize someone else's work... im not angry with you, i've just been in this situation before in this kind of conversation where people just copy and paste without bothering addressing the other person, and it ticks me off so much.

 

[Der Alte]

actually, it's not. scripture is quite clear that the wicked will be consumed by the lake of fire, not live forever in torment. to suggest that eternal torment is true is to call Jesus a liar because it was Jesus that both body and soul will be destroyed in Gehenna, Matthew 10:28.. but i'll humor you, and review these alleged "proof texts" you give
* * *

You accused others of posting "proof texts" when it is you who posted out-of-context "proof texts." Beginning with Matt 10:28. Jesus did NOT say "body and soul will be destroyed in Gehenna."

Matthew 10:28
(28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

What God created He is certainly able to destroy. But I do not know of a single verse which states that even one soul has been or will be destroyed in hell or anywhere else.
.....Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church from its inception, 2000 +/- years ago. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the meaning of the Greek words in the N.T.? Certainly not anonymous posters online who don't know an aorist from an apple..

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[1]​

Link to source:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., Matt 25:46 and the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.

EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[ κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

Note the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars who translated the EOB translated “aionios” as “eternal.”
The Greek word translated “punishment” in Matt 25:46 is “kolasis.” Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction” but according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.” And note 1 John 4:18 there is no correction the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect.

 

[Rapture Bound]

Jesus is YHWH replied [post #34], "I've never heard of a single Calvinist with your beliefs on the soul and hell and I was a Calvinist for over 40 years and have a library full of Calvinist books, theologies, the Institutes, the WCF etc......"

My Reply :

Well, here's one for you :

In the below video, Chris Date [a 5-point Calvinist] expounds upon some of the critical points of contention between Traditionalism and Conditionalism.

 

[Der Alte]

The ECF and man's immortal soul
The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus.Chap VI
20 that very body; and Christians are confined in the world as in a prison, and yet they are the preservers20 of the world. The immortal soul dwells in a mortal tabernacle; and Christians dwell as sojourners in corruptible [bodies], looking for an incorruptible dwelling21 in the heavens. The soul, when but ill-provided with food and drink, becomes better; in like manner, the Christians, though subjected day by day to punishment, increase the more in number.22 God has assigned them this illustrious position, which it were unlawful for them to forsake.

The Treatise of Athenagoras. Chapter XV
For if the whole nature of men in general is composed of an immortal soul and a body which was fitted to it in the creation, and if neither to the nature of the soul by itself, nor to the nature of the body separately, has God assigned such a creation or such a life and entire course of existence as this, but to men compounded of the two, in order that they may, when they have passed through their present existence, arrive at one common end, with the same elements of which they are composed at their birth and during life, it unavoidably follows, since one living-being is formed from the two, experiencing whatever the soul experiences and whatever the body experiences, doing and performing whatever requires the judgment of the senses or of the reason, that the whole series of these things must be referred to some one end, in order that they all, and by means of all, namely, man’s creation, man’s nature, man’s life, man’s doings and sufferings, his course of existence, and the end suitable to his nature, — may concur in one harmony and the same common experience.

Tertullian The Five Books Against Marcion. Chapter IX
In this respect will the image be less than the reality, and the afflatus inferior to the spirit, in that, while it possesses beyond doubt the true lineaments of divinity, such as an immortal soul, freedom and its own mastery over itself, foreknowledge in a great degree,111 reasonableness, capacity of understanding and knowledge, it is even in these respects an image still, and never amounts to the actual power of Deity, nor to absolute exemption from fault, - a property which is only conceded to God, that is, to the reality, and which is simply incompatible with an image.

Origen - De Principiis Book 3
And this is a point which I wish impressed upon those who peruse these pages, that with respect to topics of such difficulty and obscurity we use our utmost endeavour, not so much to ascertain clearly the solutions of the questions (for every one will do this as the Spirit gives him utterance), as to maintain the rule of faith in the most unmistakeable manner,112 by striving to show that the providence of God, which equitably administers all things, governs also immortal souls on the justest principles, (conferring rewards) according to the merits and motives of each individual; the present economy of things113 not being confined within the life of this world, but the pre-existing state of merit always furnishing the ground for the state that is to follow,114 and thus by an eternal and immutable law of equity, and by the controlling influence of Divine Providence, the immortal soul is brought to the summit of perfection.

Hippolytus Part II. - Dogmatical and Historical. Against Beron and Helix.
For, whereas he thought to involve the noble youth in an unhallowed punishment, he exhibited him as a double martyr for Christ, inasmuch as he had both striven nobly for his own immortal soul, and persevered manfully in labours also in behalf of that noble and blessed maiden. Wherefore also he was deemed worthy of double honour with Christ, and of the illustrious and blessed crowns by His goodness.

 

[Daniel Hoseini]

The camera recordings of the immortal souls. There are 3 examples here.

The 4th episode from time 3:17 is from the movie The Exorcist and has nothing to do with the soul and at the very end the video's compiler scares the audience with a created terrifying monster that suddenly appears. So you don't have to look beyond 3:17. All other episodes turn out to be objective observations from different places.

Only Jesus is the Savior of the soul, follow His calling as long as you live.