Man does not have an "immortal" soul.

[Bob corrigan]

You claim that "Part of the definition of immortal is, "having no beginning or end."" I have never seen that as the definition--immortal does indicate something not having an end, but not anything about something not having a beginning. Just to be sure, I consulted several dictionaries and none of them match your definition. While they do are in agreement with the claim of something having no end being immortal (e.g. the New Oxford American Dictionary gives the definition of "living forever; never dying or decaying" which is essentially saying no end), none of them say anything at all about having no beginning being part of the definition for immortality.

Your argument here relies on immortal meaning "having no beginning or end". But as noted, that is not the meaning at all for immortal. Can you cite any dictionary that backs up your proposed definition of immortal?

 

[Bob corrigan]

1Tim 6:15-16 clearly stated that only God is immortal, correct? Did God have a beginning? No, He has always been in existence. In the biblical sense, to say one is immortal would be akin to be like God, with no beginning. Yes, immortal does include the meaning of not being subject to death. And Scripture teaches that the believers will be given immortality after Jesus returns to judge all, believers and non-believers. Man, in his current state, starting with Adam, Gen 3:22, throughout all of history until the end, is not immortal. That is my meaning.

 

[Bob corrigan]

You claim to be guided by the authority of scriptures.
Useful for teaching,correction and such. That function requires agreement on what scripture means. Scripture is useless and seizes to be authoritative among those who don't agree on it's meaning.

I could and I'm sure others have, offer a multitude of Scripture that teach that human life enjoyed immortal life before sin brought death. But what use is that if those scriptures mean something else to you?
Your appeal to the authority of scripture makes evident that you misunderstand scripture

 

[Bob corrigan]

Ok put up or shut up! Show me these "verses!" You mention that you can show a "multitude" of verses/Scriptures that teach that human life enjoyed immortal life before sin brought death. When Adam disobeyed God is when sin brought death, Gen 3:6. Hmm, there is not a multitude of verses before Gen 3:6. There is no verse before Gen 3:6 that even mentions "immortal" life. When God brought Adam to life, God didn't say that Adam was immortal!
In fact, God warned Adam in Gen 2:17 that if Adam ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, Adam would surely die! I am not sure, but if Adam could die, he was not immortal.
What happened after Adam ate of the tree?
Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil, and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take (eat) also of the tree of life, and eat,and live for ever." Hm, the only way Adam could have achieved immortal life was if he had eaten of the tree of life, which God prevented by expelling Adam and Eve from the garden and placed Cherubims in front of the tree to prevent any human from eating from the tree of life.
Rev 2:7,
Rev 22:14
Any of these "multitude" of Scripture has to be shown before Gen 2:17, based on your words. Are you even familiar with the story? Have you even read the first 3 chapters of Gen? You are using one of the favorite tricks of false teaching. You, and your kind,go around saying,"The Bible says this," or "The Bible says that," yet you cannot show where the Bible says this or that!
You say Scripture is only effective when two or more "agree" on what Scripture means! Let me quote you,"Scripture is useless and ceases ( not seizes) to be authoritative among those who don't agree on it's meaning." Wow, you actually said that. So God's word is only useless and loses it's authority only when two or more people "agree" on what Scripture means? What a crock! Man doesn't determine what Scripture means! It's authority is based on the fact that it is His word! Scripture is useless unless two or more agree on the meaning? Wow, you are so far away from any understanding of Scripture that it is scary! Believers agree on what Scripture teaches, non-believers deny, disagree and are spiritually dead! Do you mean that Scripture is filled with truth and knowledge and it is through study that these things are know, not asking,"Hmm, what does that mean to me?" It is so funny, those who know nothing, or very, very little about Scripture actually believe they are Bible "experts," as you clearly demonstrate! You have the gall to tell me I don't understand Scripture? Really? I don't know if you go to a "church building" or not, but if what you say is a result of what you have been taught, is biblically criminal. Don't respond if you can't back up what you say with book, chapter, verses!

 

[Eloy Craft]

fact, God warned Adam in Gen 2:17 that if Adam ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, Adam would surely die! I am not sure, but if Adam could die, he was not immortal.

If the consequence of disobedience is death it follows that Adam didn't experience death before sin. Sin = death no sin no death.
You are confusing the meaning of the word immortal with the meaning of the word eternal. There is even a state of eternal life that angels exist. It begins but has no end. Angels are also immortal.
Immortality doesn't require that it has no beginning. Eternity with no beginning or end is a state of existence exclusive to God. God created man and angels as rational creatures. Rational creatures are inherently immortal. Intellect is the rational power of spiritual life. It's a power that enables the human heart to seek truth and know God. It's a power that is not earthly in origin but must be created by God.

Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil, and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take (eat) also of the tree of life, and eat,and live for ever." Hm, the only way Adam could have achieved immortal life was if he had eaten of the tree of life, which God prevented by expelling Adam and Eve from the garden and placed Cherubims in front of the tree to prevent any human from eating from the tree of life.

The tree of life is a natural part of the human diet before sin. Not a one time deal. Adam and Eve had fallen and suffered a lower state of life. To prevent that fallen state from being permanent He couldn't let us eat from the tree of life.

You say Scripture is only effective when two or more "agree" on what Scripture means! Let me quote you,"Scripture is useless and ceases ( not seizes) to be authoritative among those who don't agree on it's meaning." Wow, you actually said that. So God's word is only useless and loses it's authority only when two or more people "agree" on what Scripture means? What a crock! Man doesn't determine what Scripture means! It's authority is based on the fact that it is His word! Scripture is useless unless two or more agree on the meaning? Wow, you are so far away from any understanding of Scripture that it is scary! Believers agree on what Scripture teaches, no

To properly interpret Scripture one must know what the human author meant. I don't think you include that in your studies.
The meaning you give scripture puts you in an exclusive and small club. If you fellowship with them Scripture is authoritative but is not an authority. Authority doesn't exist if it can't be exercised. That requires a person with authority. You are attempting to spread your beliefs using a tool made for believers. Scriptures can strengthen faith correct error, and since it is living it is able to do today what it has always done and will do until Jesus returns. But it isn't able to convert any one without someone to explain what it means. Believers are so fragmented in their faith scripture loses it's function of helping teachers and preachers correct and admonish their congregations.

don't know if you go to a "church building" or not, but if what you say is a result of what you have been taught, is biblically criminal. Don't respond if you can't back up what you say with book, chapter, verses!

Quit hiding behind the Sacred Word. Faith and reason walk together. The scriptural meaning I hold to is reasonable and comprehensive. Since you and I don't agree on scripture the only tool we have to find agreement is reason. That requires that I know and understand your interpretation and that you know and understand my interpretation.
Scripture. Preternatural immortality.
Gen 2

then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living being.


In biblical language a 'living' creature or being is a term attached to immortal life as well as life on earth after birth but before death. The four living creatures Ezekial describes are heavenly beings. They are also mentioned in Revelation.
Jeremiah10

1. 
   
2. Jeremiah 10:10
   But the Lord is the true God; he is the living God and the everlasting King. At his wrath the earth quakes, and the nations cannot endure his indignation.

Adam became a living being. If Adam was like other animals that naturally dies, as you contend,death can't be a consequence of sin since according to you that was Adam's intended end before sin.

Bob, I hope you make an effort to understand what I've written. Expose my error refute my reasoning. What you are believing is not a development of faith in Christ but a faith never believed before. If you wish to be understood reason is your most powerful tool for that. That's the only means for agreement between us in regards of the meaning of Scripture.

 

[rwb]

In the beginning when God created man, He formed man from the dust of the earth, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Many believe this makes man a tri-part being, but in reality, man is made of two parts; body that is the dust of the earth, to which man returns in death, and the breath of life that is the spirit in man, that every living creature possesses. IOW man has an outer shell that houses their spirit or inner man.

The ability for mankind to live forever was lost when man disobeyed God, then sin, and death through sin entered into God's creation. So no human being possesses immortality.

The Word shows us that the life we receive through Christ when we believe and are born again through His Spirit is not immortal, but eternal. We know this eternal life we receive when we are born again is not of our body, because our body grows old, sick and is destined to die. So the eternal life we receive through Christ is only possible through the Holy Spirit that indwells every believer. The spirit life God breathes into every living creature is our mind, for it is through our minds that the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God (Ro. 8:16). So our spirit having eternal life through Christ never dies. So when our body dies, our spirit, indwelt with the Holy Spirit becomes spirit/soul. Instead of being a two part being, in death the spirit of believers, possessing eternal life can never die, but lacking a body become a spirit soul in heaven.

Then when the last trumpet sounds the return of Christ, our mortal bodies are resurrected either to resurrection life or damnation. At that time the body of every believer resurrected is changed from mortal to immortal, and corruption to incorruptible. This is when immortal life begins for every Christian. We are changed to immortal life to live with Christ throughout eternity on the new earth.

 

[Eloy Craft]

The Word shows us that the life we receive through Christ when we believe and are born again through His Spirit is not immortal, but eternal.

Minor correction for the meaning of immortal and eternal. They aren't mutually exclusive.
Eternal life is inherently immortal. Immortal life is not necessarily eternal. Immortal life can be temporal. Immortal earthly life doesn't end in death but a lifting up body and soul to a higher state of life.

 

[rwb]

Minor correction for the meaning of immortal and eternal. They aren't mutually exclusive.
Eternal life is inherently immortal. Immortal life is not necessarily eternal. Immortal life can be temporal. Immortal earthly life doesn't end in death but a lifting up body and soul to a higher state of life.

It is the Scripture that differentiates immortal and eternal. Immortal means undecaying, which is needed for our bodies from the fall, because they are destined to grow old, decay and die. But eternal life means perpetual, everlasting, forever, which is what Christ promises through His Spirit to whosoever believes. Our bodies are not given eternal life when we are saved by grace through faith, our inward man, our spirit is through His Spirit in us. That's why Christ says whoever lives and believes in Him shall never die. Our spirit never dies, but our body does. Therefore our body must be changed from mortal to immortal, and corruption to incorruptible when Christ comes again.

 

[Der Alte]

In the beginning when God created man, He formed man from the dust of the earth, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Many believe this makes man a tri-part being, but in reality, man is made of two parts; body that is the dust of the earth, to which man returns in death, and the breath of life that is the spirit in man, that every living creature possesses. IOW man has an outer shell that houses their spirit or inner man.
The ability for mankind to live forever was lost when man disobeyed God, then sin, and death through sin entered into God's creation. So no human being possesses immortality.
The Word shows us that the life we receive through Christ when we believe and are born again through His Spirit is not immortal, but eternal. We know this eternal life we receive when we are born again is not of our body, because our body grows old, sick and is destined to die. So the eternal life we receive through Christ is only possible through the Holy Spirit that indwells every believer. The spirit life God breathes into every living creature is our mind, for it is through our minds that the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God (Ro. 8:16). So our spirit having eternal life through Christ never dies. So when our body dies our spirit, indwelt with the Holy Spirit becomes spirit/soul. Instead of being a two part being, in death the spirit of believers, possessing eternal life can never die, but lacking a body become a spirit soul in heaven.
Then when the last trumpet sounds the return of Christ, our mortal bodies are resurrected either to resurrection life or damnation. At that time the body of every believer resurrected is changed from mortal to immortal, and corruption to incorruptible. This is when immortal life begins for every Christian. We are changed to immortal life to live with Christ throughout eternity on the new earth.

1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios]​

In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

 

[rwb]

1 Timothy 6:13-16 (KJV) I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Paul is speaking of Christ alone having immortal life, and is the only Potentate, King of Kings, and Lord of lords. Immortal means undecaying, which is true of Christ, His body saw no decay. Though He became man, He is also eternal God from everlasting to everlasting, uncreated, without beginning and without end. As a man, Christ was destined to die, but as God He is immortal, and everlasting. Yes, the God-Man; Jesus Christ our Lord can exist in His humanity for a finite period of time, while at the same time possessing immortality and everlasting life as God, the Creator of all things.

 

[JSRG]

1Tim 6:15-16 clearly stated that only God is immortal, correct? Did God have a beginning? No, He has always been in existence. In the biblical sense, to say one is immortal would be akin to be like God, with no beginning. Yes, immortal does include the meaning of not being subject to death. And Scripture teaches that the believers will be given immortality after Jesus returns to judge all, believers and non-believers. Man, in his current state, starting with Adam, Gen 3:22, throughout all of history until the end, is not immortal. That is my meaning.

Firstly: Please, when responding to someone, put your response in the same post. I notice that in replying to my post (and other peoples') you have one post in which you quote it, and then a separate where you add a response. There is no reason to do this; it just adds unnecessary extra posts. Put your quote and reply in the same post.

Second, the fact you say "yes, immortal does include the meaning of not being subject to death" is exactly the point. When people say "immortal soul" that's what they mean. While I'm sure there's probably a few people out there that might claim that souls always have existed, the typical meaning of "immortal soul" refers to a soul that, while having a beginning, does not have an end. You don't get to take a phrase, use a different meaning for a word in it than the people who use the phrase mean, and then pronounce them wrong. It would be like if I said "that is a blue house" and you were to say that is wrong, because "blue" has the meaning of sad. That may be a possible meaning, but it isn't the meaning that I was using. The same applies to the term "immortal soul."

 

[Eloy Craft]

Romans 7

So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self, 23 but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin.

Did we have a body of death before sin?
Did our flesh serve a law at war with our will before sin?
Did the law that dwells in our members make us captive before sin?

If this is how it was Before sin, then we were sinners before we sinned.
If this is a consequence of sin then we didn't have a body burdened by death before sinning.

 

[jamiec]

So you read some books, learned some new things,
and you think that is what it means to receive a
revelation?
1 Corinthians 2:
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard,
neither have entered into the heart of man, the things
which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit:
for the Spirit searches all things, yea,
the deep things of God.

I find it amazing - and rather funny - that whatever the Churches (however defined) have taught in the the last 1990 years is apparently all of it wrong in every way.

It would make a great deal of sense if Jesus was a false Messiah, just as the Jews have always said He was. Maybe Jesus is the False Prophet of Rev 13 - espeially if Rev is non-Christian in origin, but Jewish. If the Churches got everything so hopelessly wrong, it is absurd to suppose that they got their ideas about Christ correct. In all likelihood, the Churches are as hopelessly at sea about Him, as they about everything else. Why not ? Every other doctrine is apparently baloney - so why make an exception for doctrines about Him ?

Christians who criticise "the Church" all the time, for teaching what are alleged to be "false doctrines", succeed only in spreading scepticism. They are helping and serving cynicism, agnosticism and atheism: not Christianity.

 

[martymonster]

I find it amazing - and rather funny - that whatever the Churches (however defined) have taught in the the last 1990 years is apparently all of it wrong in every way.

It would make a great deal of sense if Jesus was a false Messiah, just as the Jews have always said He was. Maybe Jesus is the False Prophet of Rev 13 - espeially if Rev is non-Christian in origin, but Jewish. If the Churches got everything so hopelessly wrong, it is absurd to suppose that they got their ideas about Christ correct. In all likelihood, the Churches are as hopelessly at sea about Him, as they about everything else. Why not ? Every other doctrine is apparently baloney - so why make an exception for doctrines about Him ?

Christians who criticise "the Church" all the time, for teaching what are alleged to be "false doctrines", succeed only in spreading scepticism. They are helping and serving cynicism, agnosticism and atheism: not Christianity.

So you're saying... the majority view of something, is usually the right one?

 

[jamiec]

1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios]​

In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

FWIW:

Aphtharsia (αφθαρσια) is used 7 times in the NT: G861 - aphtharsia - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nasb20)

Aphthartos (αφθαρτος) is used 8 times in the NT: G862 - aphthartos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nasb20)

The root meaning seems to be, respectively, "imperishability", "imperishable".

Αθανασια (immortality) occurs in 3 places in NT: G110 - athanasia - Strong's Greek Lexicon (nasb20)

Why is immortality ascribed to God alone ?

Perhaps because God alone is inherently immortal, whereas immortality in creatures, however real, can necessarily - since they are not God - be possessed only in dependence on God. They cannot be immortal, without the Immortal God. But the converse is not true.

 

[atpollard]

Scripture does not teach of a place called "hell," a place of eternal punishment.

Since you make false statements right out of the gate, what hope is there for the rest of what you say?

Scripture most certainly DOES teach of a place of punishment (so you should search scripture harder).
Scripture teaches that in this place, “THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED”.
Scripture teaches that the evil “will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (exact same word for eternal in both cases, so if punishment is not “without end” then neither is the life promised by Christ).

“Hell” is an English word, but so is “God”. There are other words used in the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. The concept is taught, even if another word is used.

 

[atpollard]

So you're saying... the majority view of something, is usually the right one?

That would be either atheism (communist China) or Hinduism (India) based on world population.

God (the Bible) says:

• [Matthew 7:13-14 NLT] "You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.”
  
• [Isaiah 53:1 NASB95] “Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?”

Truth has never been a majority vote (or the world would still be flat).

 

[QvQ]

I may do a study on hell one day, but it cannot be covered in a short post.

One day you may study hell. Goes for all of us, maybe.

 

[BravoM]

Hell is real and Jesus spoke about it more than anyone else.

 

[Andrewn]

Hell is real and Jesus spoke about it more than anyone else.

Hell is an English world. Jesus spoke about Hades and Gehenna. These concepts are not necessarily equivalent to the popular understanding of Hell.