Make Poverty History

[Treasure the Questions]

Radio 4's morning news magazine, the Today Programme, today - Tuesday - had Bono (lead singer of U2 and anti-poverty activist) as a guest editor. There was a fair bit said about the Make Poverty History campaign http://www.makepovertyhistory.org/.

Presumably for today only you can listen again to some articles - see list on right hand side of home page http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/

Bill Clinton stressed the importance of making the world a more equal place as part of the fight against terrorism and Gordon Brown, I think it was, stressed the importance of America joining in with as much enthusiasm as the UK so that there could be enough money for vital development work as well as responding to global disasters such as the present one in South East Asia. The vital role played by faith groups and the importance of the pressure they can exert on politicians was also made clear.

However, while ordinary people wanting to see an end to needless poverty and children and others dying from a lack of clean water or cheap medicine and other things it would be so easy to provide may be looking to their politicians to see how committed they are, it is important to remember that politicians will be looking to us to see if we are willing to make small sacrifices and show signs of being less greedy consumers.

I recommend the interviews with Gordon Brown (7.50am), Bill Clinton (8.30am) and Bono himself (8.50am), which are all well worth a listen. They are about 15 or 20 minutes long, I think.

Let's see everyone here at Christian Forums joining in to Make Poverty* History in 2005 and making life less miserable for millions in the developing world and safer for millions in the developed world.

*Poverty here means needless abject poverty. I think everyone realises wiping out all forms of poverty might be impossible.

 

[ahab]

Well I think we would all agree, but aren't we already supporting such efforts
http://www.tearfund.org/News/News/Christian+agencies+unite+to+Make+Poverty+History+in+2005.htm
As are all the groups involved:
The pop stars are just 'fronting' a particular move towards it, and it the politicians being called to act.
This is all very good but its man trying to solve man's problems again. Maybe some Africans for example can help us by teaching us how to solve our problems that are causing them grief, such as our greed, self idolatry, disbelief and immoraility.

Which countries does God see as under-developed and starving? I would suggest all countries

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Yes, a number of people, espeically in churches and other "faith groups" are supporting these campaigns already, but I think it's great that so many organisations are coming together in an obvious coalition and that prominent figures in the media are making a wider public aware of the issues. It is important to raise their profile and get more people on board to campaign and understand how it is in our long term interests to make the world a more just and more equal place.

As to man trying to solve man's porblems, what is wrong with that? Surely God works through human agents? Are we not Christ's hands and feet etc?

Thankfully many of the Aid and Development agencies in Britain, and hopefully the rest of the developed world have learned much from developing countries about how best to deliver aid and help the people there develop for their own benefit. I certainly wouldn't argue that people in the devloping world have much to teach us, so let us hope we are receptive to those lessons, and let no-one think that exporting Western culture and consumerism is in anyone's interest, although I fear this already has happened far too much.

In response to your last point, as far as I understand it the phrase "the developing world" is being used in an economic and technical sense. I certainly wouldn't want to suggest that all the people in those countries are less well-educated than people in the West, although lack of education for the majority of people is a huge problem in many of those countries.

 

[desi]

Developing the whole world into the US's image would be expensive and catastrophic to the environment.

 

[teenash]

Just a thought on all of this-- I've seen so many Christian organizations focusing their efforts on feeding the hungry and building houses and all of that stuff... my thing is, should it be done? sure. but it has become the primary focus in so many circles-- the... humanitarian part of it... and then they stop it there... the cure is not clean water, it is Christ and I think we would most agree. There's the arguement that unless they are fed, people will not listen-- I do not agree. I believe God is bigger than a grumbling stomach-- the Holy Spirit stronger than hunger. Is anybody else with me in this?? If you are going to send food and supplies-- send them, but not as a forerunner of the Gospel... how many souls are lost to Satan while we dally?

 

[teenash]

developing the entire world to be like america would be:
A.) a little too brave new world for me
B.) scary
C.) boring
D.) declining morally at a rate Satan dreams of, I'm sure.

 

[ahab]

Hi Treasure the Questions,



I am sorry to so negative towards your posts when the goal and aim is so important.

However, I can’t quite reconcile the consumerism and commercialism of pop stars turning over millions in videos, radio and CD sales and concerts with huge consumerism and a sort of idol worship attached, with these pop starts suddenly promoting a better world, with aid charities and workers, who are doing that all the time at immense sacrifice in many cases.

As an analogy, how does this tally with for example Greenbelt’s living generously project? I mean I applaud it but in my cell group we are using left over paint to go into the Christian run youth homeless hostel and paint and decorate the place. We were already doing that when I saw the idea on the Greenbelt website so I was encouraged. The analogy is that if we are seeing need and responding, then we are living out our faith and so we are through Jesus bringing the Kingdom to the world and so God most certainly work through human agents and we are Christ's hands and feet etc.? However since when have most of these pop stars claimed that?

The question for me as a Christian is what does God want me to do? Does He want me to serve as I am serving in the current various projects and ministries, or does He want me to go to somewhere and help an agency, because when I look at these aid workers I am well humbled and very thankful fro their efforts.

In response to your last point, as far as I understand it the phrase "the developing world" is being used in an economic and technical sense. I certainly wouldn't want to suggest that all the people in those countries are less well-educated than people in the West, although lack of education for the majority of people is a huge problem in many of those countries.

That’s exactly what I didn’t mean. Do you think God sees developed as an education or material and technological thing?
Can I ask why we in Europe and the US recognise our wealth compared to Africa, and yet Africa is sending us missionaries to preach the gospel?

 

[ahab]

Hi teenash

Yes I agree with you

 

[Treasure the Questions]

First of all, I don't think anyone wants to see the whole world to be developed in the same way as the US - no-one in their right mind anyway.

What Bono spoke about was bringing an end to needless poverty and he gave as an example a child dying for want of an inexpensive vaccine. In the developing world many children do die from such a simple lack and many people die from water-bourne diseases due to lack of access to clean water. Many also die because they can't afford decent nourishment or basic medecines and because medical care is too far away when needed.

These are the things more development aid needs to be spent on to start with. The sort of technology they need is the sort that helps them build things like wells and irrigation systems.

I'm not quite sure why it matters that pop-stars promote these causes. If they catch the imagination of a wider public then that has to be good. Some, like Bono and Sir Bob (Geldorf) have been involved in these causes for some time and their concern seems very sincere.

Jesus said we should feed the hungry and give water to those who thirst. He also said that anyone who was doing his work was on his side. Sure if Christians are involved in doing these things people may ask them about their faith, although showing they care may be witness enough in many cases. Let us continue the work Jesus started and see if that results in people wanting to find out more about those who do it, just as they wanted to find out more about Jesus when he went about healing the sick and feeding the hungry.

Even if anyone feels that preaching the gospel with words is important, surely that is not a reason to neglect those in desperate need. Notice that Jesus addressed people's needs before giving them a brief word of spiritual guidance most of the time, and it was after their needs were met that they responded to him.

Besides, which I see relieving desparate need and preaching the gospel as two completely separate activities, so I'm not sure why preaching the gospel has been brought into the discussion.

teenash, you say the Holy Spirit is stronger than hunger, but have you ever been starving? Have you ever had to watch your children fading away before you? I suspect people in those circumstances are far more concerned with a cup of water and a handful of rice than some wealthy foreigner or even a well-heeled compatriot, preaching at them.

 

[JJB]

Hello

When we were struggling financially because of lack of employment, and our unemployment assistance ran dry, the last thing I wanted to hear from a fellow Christian was a bible verse or a half-hearted "I'll pray for you." I was already seeking God constantly! We were desparate. We needed real, physical help --

I think meeting people's physical needs speaks volumes! I agree with Treasure that meeting physical needs must come first. That is what softens a person's heart and shows Love.

Have you ever heard the saying that goes something like, "Preach the gospel, and use words if you must"?

I, too, have problems with rich celebrity-types telling us to give our money. I'd like to know what percentage of their income they give.....maybe that's being unreasonable, or maybe i'm jaded . I don't often care what they tell us, because they don't know any more than anyone else.

Anyway, that's my two cents.....

 

[Treasure the Questions]

I guess it depends on the celebrity, JJB, and I also have my reservations about those who live in great luxury and have extravagant life-styles.

With the Make Poverty History campaign it is not about giving money as far as I can tell. It seems to be mostly about increasing support for the trade Justice and Drop the Debt campaigns and to encourage our government and other world leaders to "provide 0.7% of national income in international aid, and make aid work more effectively for poor people". For more info about it click on the link in my opening post.

Karin

 

[ahab]

Hi JJB,



Since when does doing both preaching the gospel and living our lives as a living sacrifice and feeding the poor suggest that we aren’t feeding the poor?

 

[ahab]

Hi my friend, Treasure the Questions,

I don’t see where your idea of developing the world to be like the US comes in to relieving poverty, what has that got to do with it? No my original point was those most living in consumerism are now fronting the effort. Its good but we would hope they get Jesus as well.

I'm not quite sure why it matters that pop-stars promote these causes.,...

Neither do I, its just that I am not suggesting either pop stars or politicians aren’t sincere, my point is that the consumerism is consumerism whether US or where ever and pop culture is part of it so I don’t see why you object if its US, but not if its pop stars. My original observation is that as Chirstians we should be committed to helping the poor regardless of pop stars or politics, from the moment we believed and saw it was our commission. I am going to be judged according to what I do, not what a polician or pop star does.

Jesus said we should feed the hungry and give water to those who thirst.

Jesus said “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned”, Mark 16 and feed the hungry and give water to those who thirst, Matt 25, and look after orphans and widows and keep oneself from being poluted by the world 1 James..

He also said that anyone who was doing his work was on his side.

Yes I agree. 1 Thess 1:3 "We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. "All of it or bits of it? Which scripture did you have in mind?

Sure if Christians are involved in doing these things people may ask them about their faith

Absolutely but when it comes to all those pop stars lets hope Bono gets all the questions

although showing they care may be witness enough in many cases.

Absolutely, we show our faith in action.

Let us continue the work Jesus started and see if that results in people wanting to find out more about those who do it, just as they wanted to find out more about Jesus when he went about healing the sick and feeding the hungry.

I think that’s what Christians are doing with all we have been discussing, but specifically in this case charities like Christian Aid, CAFOD and Tearfund. But I dont think they crucified Jesus becuase of His healings, but becuase of what He taught and claimed.

Besides, which I see relieving desparate need and preaching the gospel as two completely separate activities, so I'm not sure why preaching the gospel has been brought into the discussion.

IMO preaching the gospel is telling of Jesus, living the gospel and feeding the poor. My point was are all the pop stars heading this preaching the gospel, living the gospel and feeding the poor to the glory of God through Jesus?

teenash, you say the Holy Spirit is stronger than hunger, but have you ever been starving? Have you ever had to watch your children fading away before you? I suspect people in those circumstances are far more concerned with a cup of water and a handful of rice than some wealthy foreigner or even a well-heeled compatriot, preaching at them.

And yet to the cripple on the steps Peter and John had nothing to give materially only physical healing in the name of Jesus. Jesus sent out the 72 to preach the Kingdom with nothing. What happened to the widow at Zarapheth? The Holy Spirit is eternal, hunger isn’t. The hope of glory is eternal life in the Kingdom where there is no death and no tears. Feed someone some food for the stomach and you keep them alive for a while, feed someone some words of Jesus AS WELL, (they are spirit and they are life). Have you ever seen someone die in the UK from depression and drugs? No we feed them both.

However, while ordinary people wanting to see an end to needless poverty and children and others dying from a lack of clean water or cheap medicine and other things it would be so easy to provide may be looking to their politicians to see how committed they are, it is important to remember that politicians will be looking to us to see if we are willing to make small sacrifices and show signs of being less greedy consumers.

As I said, aren’t we as Christians, supposed to be doing this already?

 

[ahab]

Make disbelief in Jesus history and there won't be any poverty.

 

[Kehaar]

Make disbelief in Jesus history and there won't be any poverty.

John 12:8 tells us we will always have the poor among us. Whether that is poor spiritually, physically, emotinally or in whatever way I believe we have a duty to help.

Matthew 25: 35-40

"For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ "Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ "The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me'"

Thank you, Treasure the Questions, for highlighting Make Poverty History here. I went along to a local Tearfund meeting in November and it was one of the campaign issues we discussed. I personally think we need more emphasis on christian involvement in social justice issues, there never seems to be enough.

 

[ahab]

Hi Astral_Acrobat

John 12:8 tells us we will always have the poor among us. Whether that is poor spiritually, physically, emotionally or in whatever way I believe we have a duty to help.

Thank you, Treasure the Questions, for highlighting Make Poverty History here.

Thank you for affirming Matt 25:31-

I went along to a local Tearfund meeting in November and it was one of the campaign issues we discussed. I personally think we need more emphasis on christian involvement in social justice issues, there never seems to be enough.

Amen!

 

[nvrbnunloved]

John 12:8 tells us we will always have the poor among us. Whether that is poor spiritually, physically, emotinally or in whatever way I believe we have a duty to help.

Matthew 25: 35-40

"For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ "Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ "The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me'"

Thank you, Treasure the Questions, for highlighting Make Poverty History here. I personally think we need more emphasis on christian involvement in social justice issues, there never seems to be enough.

Thank you for saying exactly what I wanted to say, AstralAcrobat

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Ahab and any other "Britishers" here, if you get the Tearfund prayer diary, either with Teartimes or via daily e-mail you will see that they are 100% behind Make Poverty History. If anyone who doesn't get it is interested I can try and post the relevant entries on this thread later.

Karin

 

[ahab]

Hi Treasure the Questions,

And I think I have also said that I am 100% behind Tearfund being behind "Make poverty History." I was 100% behind Tearfund before this and am 100% behind it now, and CAFOD and Christian Aid and Oxfam etc. What I really addressed to you was how you reconcile the pop stars and the associated consumerism which you frequently express your concerns about with them fronting this movement.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Hi Treasure the Questions,

What I really addressed to you was how you reconcile the pop stars and the associated consumerism which you frequently express your concerns about with them fronting this movement.

Well, I think we have to deal with the world as it is. Consumerism exists and we have to work with it. Pop stars generally do represent extravagant lifestyles, but people like Bono and Bob Geldorf, while not living in self-imposed poverty, are probably not the worst offenders. A certain amount of glamour is what makes the general public sit up and take notice. If people take notice of what they say let them speak out about issues that matter. It may be regrettable that people listen to them more than more obviously godly people but it is a fact we have to accept. Perhaps also people see Bob and Bono as more like themselves and "godly" people as too different in some way -wrongly or rightly.

K