Major faith struggles

[brea]

Hi everyone,

I figured there may be some other people on this particular board who share some of my struggles, so I figured I'd share.

I became a Christian when I was about 15 (I'm 25 now). My family never went to church (well, we did go to Presbyterian church when I was very young, but my mom left because the preacher said that homosexuality was wrong). I was very gung-ho when I first became a Christian, and was highly obnoxious and irritating. I told my family they were going to hell unless they believed, constantly spouting stuff like that.

I went to Bible college, then another Christian college, and was involved in lots of different churches.

I dealt with major depression, an eating disorder, and some other issues, and they opened my eyes to what some evangelical Christians are like. It knocked me down off my pedestal of assurance that I used to talk down to people from, and made me open my eyes to some things about Christianity that I'd been trying to run from.

Now, I have problems with even the basic tenets. I don't understand the salvation thing. It seems cruel. I used to ask "Why couldn't God just choose to save everyone?", and people would reply "Well, He wants people to worship Him, if people didn't have free choice, it would be like automatons worshiping, which doesn't mean much."

That made sense to me for awhile until I reflected on it- Our loving, almighty God has created billions upon billions of people with the possibility that they could endure eternal, torturous punishment, because He wants to be worshiped? Does that sound right, just, loving? To me, it makes God sound like a despotic, selfish tyrant unconcerned with our well being.

None of us asked to be put in this equation. I did not ask to be born. Why on earth are we to be blamed for a sin nature that isn't our fault? People say we still have free choice. But, let's say I was breeding dogs, and had the opportunity to breed the tendency to bite out of them. But I choose to leave it in there for some reason. Sure, it will ultimately be the resultant dog's choice whether or not to bite, but wouldn't I be held responsible because I could've prevented the possibility entirely?

I know all the lines, all the evangelical answers. I've been taught them, I've taught them to others. They don't suffice for me any more.

One of the main things that damages my faith is the Bible. It seems that, unless I strictly stick to Jesus' words, I find something that seems horrible. God ordering people to kill babies, stoning "witches", etc. Is this really the loving ruler of the universe? He loves all of us that he sent His Son to die for us (to fix a problem He could prevent), apparently except for the babies that were to be dashed against rocks because their parents weren't of the right faith, among others. People talk about the old and new covenant...I don't buy that as an excuse for the Old Testament. Besides, what role would babies play in that at all? Even if people say that God doled out punishment in the OT, what exactly would babies have been guilty of that they should have died so violently?


I'm getting married soon, and we want to have kids. What am I supposed to tell them? I think I'll probably feed them some Christian lines, trying to get them "saved", because I'm afraid that there's a chance it's true. I think a lot of it comes down to that. I know quite a few Christians who I believe are motivated by fear. It's really an excellent control system, psychologically.

I'm not trying to be blasphemous. Many evangelical Christians become VERY hostile when I bring these things up, as if I'm doing it for fun. These things break my heart. It's SO difficult to live in "faith limbo" like this. I WISH I could believe like some people do, like I used to. Feel free to tell me that I should just believe it because God says it, but that doesn't change things.

So, I don't know. I don't expect answers or anything, but I just wanted to put this out there.

 

[QuakerOats]

I can relate. I can no longer make sense of the literal interpretation of the bible either, including the literal idea of salvation through the person of Jesus Christ. I've come to understand Jesus as a sort of personification for love, and all things 'good,' but even now I suppose there's a small part of me that, every once in a while, thinks 'but what if it's all true?' I think it's aftermath from the years of being taught that things are a certain way because as you said, this type, or way of thinking and teaching can be an excellent control mechanism, psychologically speaking. I've learned to read the bible in context, historically, culturally, and I now believe that's the way it was meant to be read.

 

[Tube Socks Dude]

I know all the lines, all the evangelical answers. I've been taught them, I've taught them to others. They don't suffice for me any more.

Often when a religious system is no longer psychologically satisfying, there remains a natural longing to feel like a part of something bigger. Also, it seems to me that for those who are taught to equate written words with The Eternal Word, the Bible is deemed necessary for constructing a universal "God idea". For humans drawn to seek a higher power, the idea of God is just as important as God Himself. When the psychological aspect of seeking God is tied up with a particular external religious authority, whether scripture or institution, thus making them codependent and seemingly inseparable, then loosing faith in one feels like loosing faith in both, that is, until you learn to separate God from ideas about Him. Until that time, one may be left with an "idea" vacuum. Therefore, I would say the good news is that you have not lost the awareness of God, as evidenced by your apparent distress over having lost a familiar vehicle which at one time transported you toward God-consciousness. On the other hand, the challenging news is that you have apparently lost a particular "idea" about God, along with the former sense of larger community among others who hold that idea. Perhaps these things are what helped create the empty space for your current faith limbo. Unfortunately, when God concepts change, then one person's honesty becomes another person's blasphemy.

 

[Zeo]

This describes my spiritual passage very well.

When I was a teen, I started feeling a disconnect between the Christianity I was taught would save me and what I actually believed. For years I thought "wait...that doesn't make sense...but oh no now I'll go to hell if I think that!"

I came to realize exactly what Tube Socks Dude said. God was an intrinsic part of my understanding of the world, but Christianity ceased to adequately describe it for me.

Honestly, I know this is a troubling time (because of the fear of "what if it's all true and what if I go to hell for not believing anymore"), but just let your heart tell you what's right. Find what resonates with you and avoid what doesn't. You could also check out some churches that are more in alignment with your changing beliefs. There are many cool places within Christianity as well as without.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

brea,

You mentioned in another thread that you're attracted to Emergent thinking. That's good, I think some of the Emergent people could help you. In particular, I think you might enjoy Rob Bell's NOOMA series of videos. I'd suggest starting with 001 Rain. You can buy them on DVD, but at least some of them are available to watch for free on the site.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I agree with what the others have said. Though I am no longer Christian I identify with this journey.

C. S. Lewis said that how we know there is a God is that we all appeal to a moral law outside ourselves. (I disagree, of course, but from here on out I'll speak with my "Christian voice" -- I was one until last year.)

It would seem that he and other famous sorts agree that that which we identify as our better selves is some indication of who God is or ought to be.

If one walks in a particular direction starting at zero on a number line, you cannot go so far that you are suddenly negative.

What I mean is this: It may be true that God is more loving, merciful, and just. But we all know which way to point on the number line. If someone is teaching something that makes it appear that justice is injustice, that mercy is unmerciful, and that love is hate, I think you need to go with your gut and reject it.

We need to be able to see God's so-called system, if only from afar, and recognize that is in the positive direction on the number line -- even if it is at a fuzzy distance.

For this reason, long before I rejected religion and Christianity and any form of God I've had presented to me, I recognized that the Bible was NOT God's word to man but rather man's reflection on his relationship with God. (If Joshua is a book where man is remembering his history in a mythological fashion, then it can be seen as "We took the land because God fought for us. Dude, it was amazing!") As such, it is still valuable ... just not infallible and not inerrant and not the best pointer to God. The best pointer is people who know how to love while claiming the name of believer.

HTH

 

[DeanM]

Hi Brea,

Yup, the bible surely has its questionable passages.

Evangelists seem to have put a real spin on it to keep it from falling apart logically.

But here's a thought:

Read the bible, and try to envision what "good" and "love" truly are. Then, just take each questionable scripture and toss it against the wall and see if it sticks or not.

What remains, is the truth of "good" and "love."

And that, IMHO, is what we're supposed to figure out. Scripture tells us that we only see through the glass darkly. Finding the good in the message of God helps us see more clearly.

You might be raising children, and you might wonder what to say to them.

I'd tell them that God loves everyone, and religions are paths that lead to understanding of what "good" and "love" are. Since you are mostly versed in Christianity, you may start there and explain to them that you're a Christian because you love Christ.

And as my father says, "the devil is in the details."

God bless~

 

[Apollo Celestio]

So, it's not things we do, but who we are?

 

[BabyLutheran]

I just don't pay much attention to the Old Testament, and focus instead on Christ, and the enormous love and grace God has shown through Him.

I am like you, I can't connect the Old and the New, it seems like a different God in each one.

 

[Tube Socks Dude]

I am like you, I can't connect the Old and the New, it seems like a different God in each one.

Marcion amputated it.
Origen allegorized it.
Luther complained about it.
Calvinists justified it.
Darby dispensationalzed it.
Apologists perform theological acrobatics to harmonize it.
Most Christians just ignore it.

I’m glad at least somebody is willing to admit seeing the elephant in the room.
.
.

 

[DeanM]

I am like you, I can't connect the Old and the New, it seems like a different God in each one.

It seems like two different Gods . . .

But look how you parents taught you when you were a child, compared to now.

Same parents, but the child has grown.

Similarly, it's the same God, but the child has grown up.

What used to be "Don't cross the street without holding someone's hand," is now "What kind of stupid excuse is that for not getting a job, cuz you couldn't find someone to hold your hand to get across the street to get to the interview."

I'd be more suspicious if God wasn't changing and adapting His teachings to suit our growth . . .

 

[Tube Socks Dude]

I'd be more suspicious if God wasn't changing and adapting His teachings to suit our growth . . .

I think that to suit our growth, God should add some new prophetic revelation to Christianity's core documents. Is the Bible really a book of adaptation and change or is it a fossil?
.
.

 

[D.W.Washburn]

Hi Brea.

I think that your struggles are common to many of us. For some, wrestling with these issues has led to a rejection of the Christian faith. For others, it has brought us to a different understanding of Christianity.

I just read a pretty good article in Christian Century title, "God Does Not Demand Blood" by Daniel Bell. It's an offprint from this book:

http://www.amazon.com/God-Does-Not-Entertain-Matchmaker/dp/1587432293

Personally I've always found the idea of "substitutionary atonement" abhorrent.
The idea that God participates in redemptive violence is blasphemous. In fact, I find in the Gospels a rejection of the myth of redemptive violence.

The doctrine of substitutionary atonement, as it is usually preached, paints God as a monster. Bell's spin on the subject is useful. Unfortunately the article is not available online.

As for the Bible, well, it wasn't lowered from heaven on a golden chain. The Bible is not so much the dictation of God's word as a conversation between God and God's people. Some parts of both testaments are ugly, dark and brutal. I read all of the Bible through the lens of Jesus' teachings. Jesus, who taught us to love even our enemies, trumps the genocide of Joshua. Jesus sides more with the Prophets who called for justice than the politicos who called for the blood of their enemies.

I pray for you in your struggles, Brea. Wherever they lead you, may you find peace and grace there.

 

[AzA]

Brea -- I respect your honesty, and understand your questions. I think they're perfectly natural and normal, and part of the process of growing up!

Try not to run from the discomfort. It'll pass in its own time as you move through some of these issues, as you resituate your awareness of God and God's engagement with you, and how you choose to live in the world as a result of those two things.

I hope that you can find local support while you quest, but if this group will be all you'll have over the next little while, you are welcome here. We can make a safe space for you.

And, just a heads up: if you are a curious sort, you will go through this again at some point later on in your life. I don't want that to catch you by surprise. We were not made to stand still.

Be at peace,
AzA

 

[jesrein9]

i just wanted to say... if God was this big just loving happy go lucky, never get angry accept everyone, kind of God then why would we need to fear Him? And what would the fear of God be? Just because we say we know God is there, and that we love and follow Him.. doesnt mean we understand his ways, or thoughts, it doesn't mean we will agree with everything He does. It only means we long to know Him more.. And i'd say brea if you are sitting back saying " Could everything i've ever learned be wrong, and why don't i feel GOd the way i used to?" then you are in a good place. You haven't become complacent, you've just arrived at the end of yourself.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I suppose, jesrein9, it depends on what you mean by fear. If you mean a fear that derives from the sheer majesty of it all, the grandeur, the power, the awesomeness, etc., then that is one thing.

If you mean fear that comes from not knowing whether that force is good or not, that it may yet arbitrarily do harm, that it has plans that may involve my total destruction for its whims, then that is another.

The problem is understanding how one is different from the other and what God would want of us.

You see, for me, the second description of fear, is true fear. The first description is awe. In the first case, we may tremble because of the awe, because of limitless possibilities, because the ultimate end is unknown (if we were to live for eternity, there is no end to know), because suddenly you aren't sure you were meant for adventure. In the second case, you fear because that the unknown-ness has a potential for evil.

We would all quickly dismiss the second description of fear (real fear) as being NOT what God wants.

Now, consider parenting. Why do children fear when they do wrong? (I believe this is the sense of your first sentence, yes?) They fear, I think, from failing to understand. (Let's assume that we are speaking only of good parents.) When they are young they don't quite get that punishment is good for them. That's okay; they will eventually. So they fear because they don't understand; because of the expectation of pain of some sort; because they sense anger in the parents.

Those of us who have been to parenting classes have been taught that we should never punish out of anger. We need to get ourselves to a place where we can punish from a concern only for the child's betterment. This is out ideal.

If then God is perfect, then he isn't actually angry (or our ideal is false, perhaps). He doesn't discipline from anger but rather out of concern for our well-being; concern for our growth into the beings he wants us to be.

Our youngest children fear us even if we near perfection because of a lack of understanding. They fear punishment because they don't understand that our response is measured and designed for their well-being. They perceive anger because of the seriousness of our response derived from our sense of duty.

Your first sentence is an accurate reflection of posters before you have addressed: one ought to do good because it is good and not out of fear of punishment nor from desire of reward.

A mature child of God knows God's character; knows that God's discipline is discipline and not mere punishment. A mature child of God trusts him and doesn't fear.

So, if I were going to challenge you, I'd rephrase your question this way: What kind of God wants you to fear as if you were still immature? What kind of God wants you remain in diapers? What kind of God wants you to do good only from fear?

 

[nhisname]

Hi everyone,

I figured there may be some other people on this particular board who share some of my struggles, so I figured I'd share.

I became a Christian when I was about 15 (I'm 25 now). My family never went to church (well, we did go to Presbyterian church when I was very young, but my mom left because the preacher said that homosexuality was wrong). I was very gung-ho when I first became a Christian, and was highly obnoxious and irritating. I told my family they were going to hell unless they believed, constantly spouting stuff like that.

I went to Bible college, then another Christian college, and was involved in lots of different churches.

I dealt with major depression, an eating disorder, and some other issues, and they opened my eyes to what some evangelical Christians are like. It knocked me down off my pedestal of assurance that I used to talk down to people from, and made me open my eyes to some things about Christianity that I'd been trying to run from.

Now, I have problems with even the basic tenets. I don't understand the salvation thing. It seems cruel. I used to ask "Why couldn't God just choose to save everyone?", and people would reply "Well, He wants people to worship Him, if people didn't have free choice, it would be like automatons worshiping, which doesn't mean much."

That made sense to me for awhile until I reflected on it- Our loving, almighty God has created billions upon billions of people with the possibility that they could endure eternal, torturous punishment, because He wants to be worshiped? Does that sound right, just, loving? To me, it makes God sound like a despotic, selfish tyrant unconcerned with our well being.

None of us asked to be put in this equation. I did not ask to be born. Why on earth are we to be blamed for a sin nature that isn't our fault? People say we still have free choice. But, let's say I was breeding dogs, and had the opportunity to breed the tendency to bite out of them. But I choose to leave it in there for some reason. Sure, it will ultimately be the resultant dog's choice whether or not to bite, but wouldn't I be held responsible because I could've prevented the possibility entirely?

I know all the lines, all the evangelical answers. I've been taught them, I've taught them to others. They don't suffice for me any more.

One of the main things that damages my faith is the Bible. It seems that, unless I strictly stick to Jesus' words, I find something that seems horrible. God ordering people to kill babies, stoning "witches", etc. Is this really the loving ruler of the universe? He loves all of us that he sent His Son to die for us (to fix a problem He could prevent), apparently except for the babies that were to be dashed against rocks because their parents weren't of the right faith, among others. People talk about the old and new covenant...I don't buy that as an excuse for the Old Testament. Besides, what role would babies play in that at all? Even if people say that God doled out punishment in the OT, what exactly would babies have been guilty of that they should have died so violently?


I'm getting married soon, and we want to have kids. What am I supposed to tell them? I think I'll probably feed them some Christian lines, trying to get them "saved", because I'm afraid that there's a chance it's true. I think a lot of it comes down to that. I know quite a few Christians who I believe are motivated by fear. It's really an excellent control system, psychologically.

I'm not trying to be blasphemous. Many evangelical Christians become VERY hostile when I bring these things up, as if I'm doing it for fun. These things break my heart. It's SO difficult to live in "faith limbo" like this. I WISH I could believe like some people do, like I used to. Feel free to tell me that I should just believe it because God says it, but that doesn't change things.

So, I don't know. I don't expect answers or anything, but I just wanted to put this out there.

Heart knowledge is what you need......We are so bombarded with worldly ideas we forget who God is. Do you have a personal relationship with the Father? A personal one on one prayer life is nessessary to know the Father and to hear his voice.... You have to give over totally all of yourself and die daily to the flesh...when Jesus was on the cross he did not come down until the flesh was dead only then was he complete in the Spirit..same with us..our flesh has to die before he can take over with the Holy Spirit...remember it is God working through us(Christians) that sets us apart from the world. When you give yourself over to God totally then the Holy Spirit will be able to help you to understand the scriptures....We are in a spiritual war right now, satan wants full control, especially over God's children, always remember to ask the Lord to protect your thoughts and your heart daily, hourly if nessessary...this is how satan creeps in. I hope this helps, as you pray and read you will gain maturity in the Lord and you will go from glory to glory and he will bless you beyond measure...you will also reap the fruits of the Spirit which one of them is peace........God Bless You on you journey!

 

[TheManeki]

There's heart knowledge and there's head knowledge, and ignoring one to focus solely on the other seems like a terrible idea to lil' ol' me.