Magic

[Dracil]

seebs nailed it.

Besides, Yes or no questions in general are bad form. Need some examples? Have you stopped beating your wife? (yes/no). Or have you stopped worshipping Satan? (yes/no). Unless clarification is allowed, the answer can be twisted by the questioner.

 

[onikirimaru777]

"We all agree the movie is about a boy that practises/or attempts to practise _ _ _ _ _. (yes/no)
Movies have influence on ppl......(yes/no)"

the boy practices FICTIONAL magic. Not to be confused with any sort of the occult that takes place in real life. Movies only affect someone if that person allows the movie to affect them.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

If children imitate the magic they see in Harry Potter, they're not going to get very far, are they?

In the HP universe, you can't do any magic without your wand. And exactly where are you going to get it from? You'll have a job finding the "Leaky Cauldron", and even more job getting into Diagon Alley. Which doesn't really matter, because Olivander's doesn't really exist.

Suppose you make believe with a stick. What then? You point at a broken glass and shout "reparo". What happens? You still get a clip round the ear for breaking the glass, which remains stubbornly broken.

Need I go on? Teaches children real magic? Do the people who talk this bovine egesta actually read the books?

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Thank you Karl - a voice of reason at last!

 

[Yalith]

I'm just coming into this thread, and I'm going to do a lot of quoting in this post, just to answer everything I can in one go.... So here goes nothing.

I beleive Lord of the rings is an excellent movie, however I think Harry potter is terrible. I think harry potter is an excellent series of movies from a critic point of view, but what it contains makes me sick.

It's directed towards children and actually states how to cast magic etc.

OK, have you ever tried to point a stick at something and say "Accio whatever?" Does it come to you? If it does are you seeing someone for your mental instability, because you are obviously hallucinating?

It depends on the situation. I wouldn't recommend Harry Potter to kids, since the author is a witch, and the books do show one how to cast spells, or at the very least, peeks interest in witchcraft. But it seems like just a story to adults, and usually doesn't do much harm.
<snip>
In the book The Silmarillion (a book of the history of the elves) it even directly parallels the Bible in the first chapter, even the first paragraph. I would mention other parallels but it might ruin it for others who have not seen the whole series yet! They are simply amazing books and movies.

Actually JRR Tolkein has stated that none of his books are allegorical. Whereas CS Lewis has stated that all his Narnia books are allegorical. So though it may parallel somewhat the Bible, The Silmarillion and the Lord of the Rings are merely fictional. It can't be helped that Tolkein threw in some of his experience as a Christian into his works, it's merely because it was part of his environment.

Harry Potter peaks intrest in FICTIONAL WITCHCRAFT! Not real witch craft because they are two different things...

JK Rowling is not a witch she is Anglican, and I find the entire series devoid of any religious affiliations. Which is one reason it is so popular.

Wiccans and the Pagan Federation laud the Harry Potter books because they have greatly increased the influx of young people into witchcraft. Many children reading the books want to practice it in their lives

Myth, I've seen this one going around the internet for awhile. There is no influx of kids into witchcraft. Especially not because of Harry Potter. In fact many Wiccans look down upon this series because they feel that it give people an idea that this is what they're doing, when it is in fact completely different. When I see Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Draco casting the corners then I'll give you a ring.

Harry Potter is not a Wiccan book at all. It's fiction. Anyone who has done a study of Wiccan will tell you the same thing.

From a Wiccan!! Praise Jesus!!!

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest.

 

[PistGurl]

It's directed towards children and actually states how to cast magic etc

Not criticising your views here, their your own and I can't and don't WANT to change them.

However, I feel I do have to say to all the people who read this, that a child who mashes up a frog and waves a wand, and says 'Levitaus Levitar' or whatever it says in the book, will not be doing magic, but will be simply copying a fantasy, and completely made up book/film.

Seeing as you believe in magic I feel I should tell you that Wiccans do not do this kind of magic, and I for one think this is impossible.

This representation of 'magic' is disgusting in my opinion , but nevertheless is still only a story, not what someone believes to be reality...so do not think that it does actually tell someone how to 'cast magic because it doesn't'.

Blessed Be xx

 

[River88]

Seeing as you believe in magic I feel I should tell you that Wiccans do not do this kind of magic, and I for one think this is impossible.

Okay...I think people are forgetting that The Bible does not only warn of witchcraft, but of wizardry, as well. I feel wizardry is the link people are forgetting about, and the type of magic they seem to be practicing in Harry Potter is much closer to the kind they use in wizardry.
And another thing, just to mention, is how whenever I research anything on Harry Potter or see stuff about it on the internet (even sites that support it) I get this weird, negative feeling from it. I have a feeling HP has something deeper to it than the bed-time story magic that it seems to have.
And seriously think about it, magic is magic... wizardry is wizardry. I don't see how good could battle evil when they are both using evil (magic).

What Harry Potter does is no more "witchcraft" than computers are. It's a set of tools which do certain things according to natural law imposed by God. That's not the same thing as Biblical "witchcraft".

I read once that magic is wrong because it is showing that you do not need God to accoplish things such as defeting evil and the like. And the truth is, there is only one good that has the ability to triumph over evil, and that very essence is the great and mighty power of God. Magic can't fight magic. Satan can't fight Satan. Please, people, this is an endless one-road topic leading to a dead-end sign, but so many seem to be so blind to it.
Would Jesus have written a book like Harry Potter? Would he have read a book like Harry Potter? Now, I'm sure some of you could say, "well, I don't know because Harry Potter wasn't around two-thousand years ago..." but I'm sure there were people who told myths about witches and wizards like Harry Potter and such, so would He have listened to them with pleasure?
"Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly." 1 Timothy 4:7.
MmmHmm...Didn't think so.

However, I feel I do have to say to all the people who read this, that a child who mashes up a frog and waves a wand, and says 'Levitaus Levitar' or whatever it says in the book, will not be doing magic, but will be simply copying a fantasy, and completely made up book/film.

Actually, I think they'd be doing a lot more than harmlessly copying a fantasty book. If any of my children were influenced so much to kill and mash up a frog I think they could not handle such a thing.
And one more thing, people...
"Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable-if anything is excellent or praiseworthy-think about such things." Philippians 4:8
Is Harry Potter true, noble, right, pure, lovely, admirable (remember, admirable in God's eyes...sin is admirable today in many people's eyes), excellent or praiseworthy? Think about it.
And also... something I noticed is that the people who are standing up for Harry Potter are not showing any Biblical verses to support their claim. Can anyone standing up for Harry Potter show some verses please? I'm very interested.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Okay...I think people are forgetting that The Bible does not only warn of witchcraft, but of wizardry, as well. I feel wizardry is the link people are forgetting about, and the type of magic they seem to be practicing in Harry Potter is much closer to the kind they use in wizardry.

It isn't close to the kind of magic "they" use anywhere! It is completely made up. It is the magic of fairy stories, not even vaguely related to any magical tradition anywhere.

And another thing, just to mention, is how whenever I research anything on Harry Potter or see stuff about it on the internet (even sites that support it) I get this weird, negative feeling from it. I have a feeling HP has something deeper to it than the bed-time story magic that it seems to have.

Ah. This I can relate to. I get it reading conservative evangelical web sites and books. I think it's called personal reaction.

And seriously think about it, magic is magic... wizardry is wizardry. I don't see how good could battle evil when they are both using evil (magic).

I trust you also condemn C S Lewis for having Aslan (Christ) defeat the Ice Queen (Satan) through "deep magic from before the start of time"? Magic as used by Lewis, Tolkien and Rowling bears no relationship to magic as practiced by any real magical tradition. Again, your fallacy is one of equivocation

I read once that magic is wrong because it is showing that you do not need God to accoplish things such as defeting evil and the like. And the truth is, there is only one good that has the ability to triumph over evil, and that very essence is the great and mighty power of God. Magic can't fight magic. Satan can't fight Satan. Please, people, this is an endless one-road topic leading to a dead-end sign, but so many seem to be so blind to it.

If you were talking to people who are using magic in real life, you would have a point. Actually, if you read the books you will find that Harry wins against Voldemort not through magic, but through loyalty, courage and determination.

Would Jesus have written a book like Harry Potter? Would he have read a book like Harry Potter? Now, I'm sure some of you could say, "well, I don't know because Harry Potter wasn't around two-thousand years ago..." but I'm sure there were people who told myths about witches and wizards like Harry Potter and such, so would He have listened to them with pleasure?

I think He would. Why not?

"Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly." 1 Timothy 4:7.
MmmHmm...Didn't think so.

Rather smug, don't you think? However, this Scripture is rather obviously about pagan myths and practices of the "sticking your finger up a sheep's bottom on Good Friday cures piles" type. It's "take no notice of the Mithras cult". It has nothing to do with reading fantasy books for entertainment.

Actually, I think they'd be doing a lot more than harmlessly copying a fantasty book. If any of my children were influenced so much to kill and mash up a frog I think they could not handle such a thing.

I'd agree. Of the millions of kids who've read the books, can you supply a documented account of a kid who did? But you've missed the point - the point is that even if a kid did do this they would not be doing magic.

And one more thing, people...
"Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable-if anything is excellent or praiseworthy-think about such things." Philippians 4:8
Is Harry Potter true, noble, right, pure, lovely, admirable (remember, admirable in God's eyes...sin is admirable today in many people's eyes), excellent or praiseworthy? Think about it.

Yes. He is true and noble, and if you'd read the books you'd know that. If you'd read the books you would know exactly which qualities Rowling prizes. They are the ones you list. Sounds to me like the Scripture you are quoting supports kids reading HP.

And also... something I noticed is that the people who are standing up for Harry Potter are not showing any Biblical verses to support their claim. Can anyone standing up for Harry Potter show some verses please? I'm very interested.

OK - if you insist:

Colossians 2:

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

1 Corinthians 10

23"Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive. 24Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.

Can you show that Harry Potter is not beneficial, and not constructive? I have given reasons why it is.

 

[Indigo]

Mmm, so you're arguing that Christians who pray are praticing magic? Or else I don't really see the point in posting that link.

Still, that's just that site owner's beliefs, which I still don't think is true.

I still want to see the witches flying on broomsticks. *pouts*

I do believe when one prays magic happens. It's called miracles. For the skeptics about miracles happening around us, they are merely coincidences.

Usually someone comes up with a definition of the words used in the Bible. Can anyone give an in-depth definition of the word magic and wizardry as it is used in the Bible? I'd also love to have a link to an in-depth Bible dictionary.

I'm also surprised noone has mentioned "Charmed", one of my favorites. It is all about fighting evil and never using magic for personal gain.

 

[seebs]

And another thing, just to mention, is how whenever I research anything on Harry Potter or see stuff about it on the internet (even sites that support it) I get this weird, negative feeling from it. I have a feeling HP has something deeper to it than the bed-time story magic that it seems to have.

Well, I get that feeling from fundamentalists and many evangelicals, but that doesn't mean they're all bad people.

And seriously think about it, magic is magic... wizardry is wizardry. I don't see how good could battle evil when they are both using evil (magic).

This is the core error you're making; you're assuming that everything referred to using a given word is all the same. It's not so. (Try it on "religion". Christianity is religion; Wicca is religion. Does that mean that if one is bad, the other is bad too?)

I read once that magic is wrong because it is showing that you do not need God to accoplish things such as defeting evil and the like.

How do you feel about mystery novels in which a character, using deduction and evidence, catches a criminal?

Is that "wrong" because it's showing that you don't need God to accomplish such things?

Would Jesus have written a book like Harry Potter?

No; He's got people to do that.

Would he have read a book like Harry Potter?

Had he lived in a time when books could be made cheaply, probably, yes.

Is Harry Potter true, noble, right, pure, lovely, admirable (remember, admirable in God's eyes...sin is admirable today in many people's eyes), excellent or praiseworthy? Think about it.

Hmm. A story about how love and sacrifice can defeat evil, in which a boy learns the cost of doing the right thing, and learns that it's worth it?

Sounds pretty good.

And also... something I noticed is that the people who are standing up for Harry Potter are not showing any Biblical verses to support their claim. Can anyone standing up for Harry Potter show some verses please? I'm very interested.

This is, frankly, a disgusting abuse of the concept of "scriptural support". There's no more reference to Harry Potter in the Bible than there is to computers, the internet, or amateur herpetology. (Actually, I guess the Bible does cover the last.) The Bible does not have specific words about many issues; we have to look at what it does talk about, and think about how it applies to our lives.

That said...

Romans 14:

[1] Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
[2] For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
[3] Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
[4] Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
[5] One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
[6] He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

 

[Dracil]

I do believe when one prays magic happens. It's called miracles. For the skeptics about miracles happening around us, they are merely coincidences.

Usually someone comes up with a definition of the words used in the Bible. Can anyone give an in-depth definition of the word magic and wizardry as it is used in the Bible? I'd also love to have a link to an in-depth Bible dictionary.

I'm also surprised noone has mentioned "Charmed", one of my favorites. It is all about fighting evil and never using magic for personal gain.

The problem with saying praying is a type of magic is that, that means praying is evil. Or so the anti-Harry Potter, magic-hating people would have us believe.

 

[Indigo]

The problem with saying praying is a type of magic is that, that means praying is evil. Or so the anti-Harry Potter, magic-hating people would have us believe.

But that's the point, praying is not magic but creates magic which only God has the real power to do. And it seems to me that would be the case regarding any kind of magic unless it is for evil purposes, then Satan is the one doing the magic.

 

[PistGurl]

Okay...I think people are forgetting that The Bible does not only warn of witchcraft, but of wizardry, as well. I feel wizardry is the link people are forgetting about, and the type of magic they seem to be practicing in Harry Potter is much closer to the kind they use in wizardry.

No, it isn't and there is no such thing as a wizard...a male witch, is a witch.

And another thing, just to mention, is how whenever I research anything on Harry Potter or see stuff about it on the internet (even sites that support it) I get this weird, negative feeling from it. I have a feeling HP has something deeper to it than the bed-time story magic that it seems to have.
And seriously think about it, magic is magic... wizardry is wizardry. I don't see how good could battle evil when they are both using evil (magic).

This is your opinion, but do not state this is true, even though it is true to you

I read once that magic is wrong because it is showing that you do not need God to accoplish things such as defeting evil and the like. And the truth is, there is only one good that has the ability to triumph over evil, and that very essence is the great and mighty power of God.

The kind of magic I use, IS part of the essence and power of 'God'.

Magic can't fight magic. Satan can't fight Satan. Please, people, this is an endless one-road topic leading to a dead-end sign, but so many seem to be so blind to it.

Again, this is your personal view, I don't even believe in 'Satan', and no, magic can't really fight magic as it is simply energy directed towards a goal...'magic cannot really fight magic' is just another reason to why Harry Potter books are completely fictional, and nothing to with reality.

Would Jesus have written a book like Harry Potter? Would he have read a book like Harry Potter? Now, I'm sure some of you could say, "well, I don't know because Harry Potter wasn't around two-thousand years ago..." but I'm sure there were people who told myths about witches and wizards like Harry
Potter and such, so would He have listened to them with pleasure?

I think that he would have done, they are simply stories, and even if he believed them to be a story of the devil, he too shared many stories of sin, and the devil.

"Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly." 1 Timothy 4:7.

This doesn't mean you cannot listen to a story!! It just means that you shouldn't try and copy it into your own life!
If we didn't listen to stories, we'd have a very sad life...I'm sure you were read fairy tales when you were a child, and I'm pretty sure now that you occasionally read a book that is not the Bible, or anything to do with God?
Crime novels rarely mention God
Romance novels hardly EVER mention God
Horror books, well, they're completely out of the question aren't they, they're about Satan, and if you read them, you'll follow him...

Actually, I think they'd be doing a lot more than harmlessly copying a fantasty book. If any of my children were influenced so much to kill and mash up a frog I think they could not handle such a thing.

Yes, I wasn't saying it was a good thing to go and mash up a frog, simply that this is not magic, and if you were ever told that Wiccans sacrifice things, this is simply not true...it is completely against our beliefs, and if someone is caught sacrificing a living being, usually they are excluded from that coven (if they work in a group).

"Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable-if anything is excellent or praiseworthy-think about such things." Philippians 4:8
Is Harry Potter true, noble, right, pure, lovely, admirable (remember, admirable in God's eyes...sin is admirable today in many people's eyes), excellent or praiseworthy? Think about it.

I think Harry Potter IS a lovely book, and is by an admirable person, who has great talent as a FICTIONAL writer. Of course it isn't true-it's FICTION. It is noble, it gives you many messages of hope, courage, loyalty, wisdom, and NOT going to the 'evil side'. It isn't right in the sense of being correct, but right in the sense of justice-it has that good defeats evil etc. I would definatelt give these books praise, for they were written by an excellent CATHOLIC author.

And also... something I noticed is that the people who are standing up for Harry Potter are not showing any Biblical verses to support their claim. Can anyone standing up for Harry Potter show some verses please? I'm very interested.

OK, I'm going to dig my Bible out, and I'm gonna give you all the quotations you want, but you have to wait until I edit this post...It will be soon

Blessed Be xx

 

[PistGurl]

But that's the point, praying is not magic but creates magic which only God has the real power to do. And it seems to me that would be the case regarding any kind of magic unless it is for evil purposes, then Satan is the one doing the magic.

Are you getting at Witchcraft or not, I'm really confused!
I don't think you are, I'll shuttup!
I wasn't going to get at you, I was just confuzzed!

Blessed Be xx

 

[Indigo]

Are you getting at Witchcraft or not, I'm really confused!
I don't think you are, I'll shuttup!
I wasn't going to get at you, I was just confuzzed!

Blessed Be xx

Doesn't witchcraft mean doing magic or at least doing something to have magic come about? That's exactly why I asked if anyone could give an in-depth definition. And I meant witchcraft not magic since that seems to be the word used or translated into the Bible.

 

[PistGurl]

Well the kind of 'witchcraft' used now is stuff like meditating, using tarot cards, praying, thinking about what you want to happen next etc.....nothing like asking satan to kill your teachers! So, yes, we try to make magic happen, but only magic like that.

Blessed Be xx

 

[Indigo]

Well the kind of 'witchcraft' used now is stuff like meditating, using tarot cards, praying, thinking about what you want to happen next etc.....nothing like asking satan to kill your teachers! So, yes, we try to make magic happen, but only magic like that.

Blessed Be xx

That's exactly what I do. I just never label myself as witch or Wiccan or even Catholic, I just did here because I was raised Catholic and can't post on certain forums unless I'm Christian even though I feel I have many opinions based on my Christian upbringing but that's beside the point. I have total respect for all religions and I totally believe that truth is in the similarities which is why I always compare; for instance praying is the same as meditating just two different labels. I use animal spirit tarot cards. What do you use?

 

[PistGurl]

The set I'm using now is the Tarot of The Cat People, because of the beautiful pictures, and detailed descriptions of the fictional places where they live, it takes my mind off everything in reality for a while!

I do have an American-Indian set, and a Tarot of The Witches deck, but I don't really connect with them.

If I can, I'm hoping to find a set of Greek based cards

Blessed Be xx

 

[onikirimaru777]

a catholic that actually admits they use magick, im impressed.

"I use animal spirit tarot cards."

you say your views are christian, which is good. I'd just like to point out that tarot reading would be a form of divination and divination is forbidden by God. You probably already know that though. Have a nice day...

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

PistGurl, try the Faerie Tarot deck, I love that one. Tarot of a Moon Garden was my first deck when I was just a novie Fond memories.

Indigo, to give you a more in depth definition of magic: it's energy manipulation. It's programming energy around you and from you with your intentions so that what you will to be will manifesst in you life. Usually this is accomplished with prayer, chanting, dancing, candles, meditation, and positive thought towards a goal. I have some other posts that go more into detail, but I won't drag them all here and interupt our fine (and funny) disection of Harry Potter