Magic

[River88]

I know this topic has been covered numerous times, but I thought I'd ask anyway... what is your opinion on the use of magic in today's television, movies, books and video games? Do you think it is an exception because the magic The Bible speaks of has to do with the use of casting spells, preforming rituals, and using special charms? Well, I know for sure that some of those things out in the media use that kind of stuff, but I know in some video games, you simply select the word "magic" on the screen and something will happen like a lightning bolt shooting down from the sky, or you can use it to heal other players in the game. Do you think that kind of magic is wrong, such as the kind in games and movies like Final Fantasy and Lord of the Rings? I know that The Bible seems to clearly forbid witchcraft, but I know this other kind of magic, like the kind found in Final Fantasy and Lord of the Rings, is drastically different. So what does everyone else think?

 

[seebs]

I don't know enough about the practices the Bible refers to to know which of the many types of "magic" out there are, or are not, covered by it. I really don't have any idea how to tell whether a given ritualistic behavior is "prohibited magic" or "perfectly okay".

 

[xtxArchxAngelxtx]

It depends upon circumstances and the motivation and messege behind it.

I beleive Lord of the rings is an excellent movie, however I think Harry potter is terrible. I think harry potter is an excellent series of movies from a critic point of view, but what it contains makes me sick.

It's directed towards children and actually states how to cast magic etc.

Lord of the Rings has a messege behind it. Dealing with temptation and the battle between good evil which still exists today. It's metaphorical while Harry Potter is straight up.

Course, these are just movies.
I believe in magic and beleive that casting of spells does exists. I also beleive that it is all evil.

 

[roseofsharon83]

It depends on the situation. I wouldn't recommend Harry Potter to kids, since the author is a witch, and the books do show one how to cast spells, or at the very least, peeks interest in witchcraft. But it seems like just a story to adults, and usually doesn't do much harm. Also, some shows out there are getting simply demonic, like Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I used to like it, but eventually all the blood sacrifices and so forth turned my stomach. Remember, this is only an opinion and is not based on anything. However, the Bible does warn us to avoid witchcraft and the like, so i would say avoid all types of these things. We should not be discussing how close we can get to the line, but rather, how far can we get from it? Why compromise? It just confuses others. As for "the other kind of magic," there is no such thing. ever heard of "the other type of sin?" This is just a way to make magic seem "good."

Also, Lord of the Rings is in a totally seperate category. The author, J.R. Tolkien was a Christian when he wrote the series, and he meant for them to parallel the Bible. He was also good friends with the famous C.S. Lewis, (they were both college professors at the same college) who also wrote books to parallel the Bible, such as The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. Look it up, it's fascinating. In the book The Silmarillion (a book of the history of the elves) it even directly parallels the Bible in the first chapter, even the first paragraph. I would mention other parallels but it might ruin it for others who have not seen the whole series yet! They are simply amazing books and movies.

~Diane

 

[seebs]

Where do people get this stuff? Rowling is an Anglican. That turns out to be a Christian denomination, not a kind of witch. There is nothing in the books that teaches anyone how to do anything which is part of any occult tradition ever.

I can accept disliking the books, and there are many reasonable concerns, but Rowling isn't a witch, and the books don't teach people how to do any kind of magic.

 

[1god1son]

As for "the other kind of magic," there is no such thing. ever heard of "the other type of sin?" This is just a way to make magic seem "good."
Also, Lord of the Rings is in a totally seperate category...

How can this be so when you say magic is magic, just as sin is sin. Did you forget that Gandalf was a wizard, and dosen't he use magic? And dosen't Lord of the Rings make him look like the "good guy"? If this is truely so, it totally contradicts everything you just said, and then after talking about how we should avoid all types of witchcraft

However, the Bible does warn us to avoid witchcraft and the like, so i would say avoid all types of these things.

you then recommend a book titled "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe." Does this also contain magic and wizardry?
Yes, the authors may be Christian, but, like stated in the above post, the author of Harry Potter is a Christian herself, as well.

 

[Bohemian]

How can this be so when you say magic is magic, just as sin is sin. Did you forget that Gandalf was a wizard, and dosen't he use magic? And dosen't Lord of the Rings make him look like the "good guy"? If this is truely so, it totally contradicts everything you just said, and then after talking about how we should avoid all types of witchcraft
you then recommend a book titled "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe." Does this also contain magic and wizardry?
Yes, the authors may be Christian, but, like stated in the above post, the author of Harry Potter is a Christian herself, as well.

First of all, the Chronicles of Narnia are allegorical. If you would have read the books, you would note that the only magic user, the witch, is evil. While I don't consider Lord of the Rings an allegory, it contains Christians elements to it. I've always considered Gandalf an angelic and almost Christ-like figure; not a evil old man with a collection of mandrake roots and rat's tails.

 

[Dracil]

Magic in fictional works are set in an alternate reality, and thus our assumptions of that world based on this world may not apply. Magic in this world, if it actually exists, can however, be regarded as evil. However, I don't think magic really exists in this world, so...

 

[amnesiac]

.

Lord of the Rings has a messege behind it. Dealing with temptation and the battle between good evil which still exists today. It's metaphorical while Harry Potter is straight up.

It seems to me that Harry potter deals with these same issues. Dealing with Temptation, Having courage in the face of adversity, Standing up for what you believe to be true, Doing the right thing, the battle between good and evil. All are prominent themes in the Harry Potter books.

And BTW, thank you, seebs for pointing out Rowling's very public profession as an Anglican. I get so tired of hearing that she is a wiccan, which is so laughable considering the way she portrays magic. The Magic in Harry Potter is very much make-believe, based on the same kind of folklore that Narnia and Lord of the Rings are based upon. It resembles nothing of wiccanism or other forms of witchcraft.

I think sometimes we don't give the imiganiation of children enough credit. Children are more capable of discerning what is real and was is make believe than we seem to give them credit for.

 

[ALL4J3SUS]

Parents read the Harry Potter books with their children, often without realizing they are exposing their children to the occult and demonic. Parents and teachers are thrilled because children who won’t read will devour Harry Potter books. They reassure themselves that since the books are make-believe and fantasy, they are harmless. Some believe the story of the battle between good and evil will benefit their children spiritually.



Satanists also delight in the battle between black magick and “good” white magic. Satanist Anton LaVey says in his Satanic Bible, "White magic is supposedly utilized only for good or unselfish purposes, and black magic, we are told, is used only for selfish or evil reasons. Satanism draws no such dividing line. Magic is magic, be it used to help or hinder." [The Satanic Bible, Page 51]

Satanists and those practicing the occult believe the world of fantasy is just as real, another dimension which only they are aware of. The occultist believes the fantasy world is more exciting and adventurous. They go there through astral travel and advanced visualization. In this dimension a demon host gives the Satanist a satisfying counterfeit experience entirely in the demonic realm. In the Harry Potter books young witches and wizards enter the world of fantasy through a portal and leave the boring world of muggles. The books take the reader along with them into the fantasy world of the Hogwarts School of Wizardry and Witchcraft in the realm of the occult.

Order of the Phoenix continues the training and work of the young initiates in an occult order. It carefully aligns with real occult books written by Gavin and Yvonne Frost. They run the foremost school of witchcraft in the British Isles. The education of the young readers continues with bilocation, occlumency, shape-shifting, and dementors.

Fish won’t bite an empty fishhook. They will bite delicious-looking bait hiding the hook.

Imaginations got humans into trouble before in the days of Noah. The Harry Potter books are exquisitely written and the young actor in the movies handsome and talented, but the entrancement goes beyond the natural.

Wiccans and the Pagan Federation laud the Harry Potter books because they have greatly increased the influx of young people into witchcraft. Many children reading the books want to practice it in their lives. Games like Dungeons and Dragons open the door to the occult.

The Satanic Bible by Anton LeVey appeals to human’s natural sin nature. Parents wouldn’t let their impressionable children read that. Most parents do not know that occult imagery fills the Harry Potter books. Former Satanist -- now Born Again -- author, Cisco Wheeler recognizes the black magick rituals. Children caught up can be set up for contact by a spirit guide. Much of looks like Rowling’s vivid imagination comes from an old, obscure Luciferian book “The Chemical Wedding of Christian Rosendreutz”. This book is the basis for the initiation rituals and imagery for a Luciferian secret society of practicing occultists. Only an adept in occultism and obscure Satanism would recognize many elements of the Harry Potter books. If parents read the books before they allow their children to, they still have no idea the books show their children the way to the advanced level of witchcraft, the transmutation of the soul.

Symbols in the books later activate a subliminal conditioned response. The phoenix is one sign of the secret orders and the initiates of the ancient world. Most occultists believe the phoenix is a symbol of Lucifer cast down in flames who will rise again. One former New Age occultist said of the symbols that Satan had the key to her lock.

Teachers and parents would not be thrilled if a child who will not eat devours sweet-tasting poison. They surely would not deliberately spoon feed it to them.

What is happening today happened before. The archangel Lucifer fell from heaven like the bolt of lightening on Harry’s forehead. In the days of Noah, some of the fallen angels illegally infiltrated the human race.

www.christianity.com/art

 

[en|gma]

What is happening today happened before. The archangel Lucifer fell from heaven like the bolt of lightening on Harry’s forehead. In the days of Noah, some of the fallen angels illegally infiltrated the human race.

www.christianity.com/art

Interesting. I've always searched the Bible for fallen angels that infiltrated the human race. Could you please give me the scripture? Just PM me as I don't know how to get back to this thread. I can get lost in the labyrinth of Christianforums very easily.

 

[HadouKen24]

First of all, the Chronicles of Narnia are allegorical. If you would have read the books, you would note that the only magic user, the witch, is evil.

Well, that's not actually accurate. There's a magician in the book aptly titled "The Magician's Nephew" who is condemned, apparently, for seeking magical power -- but not, apparently, for using it. And in one of the books, Aslan, the Christ-like figure, (it's not totally allegorical, but that Aslan is a Christ figure is pretty obvious) tells the character Lucy to cast a spell to lift a curse.

Satanists also delight in the battle between black magick and “good” white magic. Satanist Anton LaVey says in his Satanic Bible, "White magic is supposedly utilized only for good or unselfish purposes, and black magic, we are told, is used only for selfish or evil reasons. Satanism draws no such dividing line. Magic is magic, be it used to help or hinder." [The Satanic Bible, Page 51]

Wonderful. Now, if only you could show a connection between Harry Potter magic and Satanic magic.

Order of the Phoenix continues the training and work of the young initiates in an occult order. It carefully aligns with real occult books written by Gavin and Yvonne Frost. They run the foremost school of witchcraft in the British Isles. The education of the young readers continues with bilocation, occlumency, shape-shifting, and dementors.

An "occult order?" No, not really. A cabal, certainly, and a conspiracy. But not an occult order in any sense relating to real occult orders.

Dementors, AFAIK, were made up by Rowling.

Imaginations got humans into trouble before in the days of Noah. The Harry Potter books are exquisitely written and the young actor in the movies handsome and talented, but the entrancement goes beyond the natural.

No, this "entrancement" is well within societal norms for fads like this. Ever heard of "beanie babies?" Or "Pokemon?"

Wiccans and the Pagan Federation laud the Harry Potter books because they have greatly increased the influx of young people into witchcraft. Many children reading the books want to practice it in their lives. Games like Dungeons and Dragons open the door to the occult.

First of all, no major Wiccan groups that I know of accept members younger than 18. And very few would be willing to actually teach children any significant magic. Second of all, any influx of people into Wicca can be attributed to a large number of factors, including a backlash against both "strict" traditional religion and naturalism, a number of other books for teens explicitly pro-Wiccan, etc.

That's the second time you said that games like D&D "open a door to the occult." I guess I'll have to head over to that thread pretty soon.

The Satanic Bible by Anton LeVey appeals to human’s natural sin nature. Parents wouldn’t let their impressionable children read that. Most parents do not know that occult imagery fills the Harry Potter books. Former Satanist -- now Born Again -- author, Cisco Wheeler recognizes the black magick rituals. Children caught up can be set up for contact by a spirit guide. Much of looks like Rowling’s vivid imagination comes from an old, obscure Luciferian book “The Chemical Wedding of Christian Rosendreutz”. This book is the basis for the initiation rituals and imagery for a Luciferian secret society of practicing occultists. Only an adept in occultism and obscure Satanism would recognize many elements of the Harry Potter books. If parents read the books before they allow their children to, they still have no idea the books show their children the way to the advanced level of witchcraft, the transmutation of the soul.

No examples, I notice.

Symbols in the books later activate a subliminal conditioned response. The phoenix is one sign of the secret orders and the initiates of the ancient world. Most occultists believe the phoenix is a symbol of Lucifer cast down in flames who will rise again. One former New Age occultist said of the symbols that Satan had the key to her lock.

Um, right. Subliminal messages. Sure.

No occultists I know of believe that about the phoenix.

And besides, the phoenix is a pretty common thing in myths and fairy tales, which is what Rowling draws from. (A pretty wide base, too. She includes everything from European goblins to Japanese kappa.)


It would make things a lot easier if you would start proving some things. Like exactly how the magic in Harry Potter is anything like "real-world" magick.

 

[amnesiac]

Wiccans and the Pagan Federation laud the Harry Potter books because they have greatly increased the influx of young people into witchcraft. Many children reading the books want to practice it in their lives. Games like Dungeons and Dragons open the door to the occult.

could you provide proof of this? The Wiccans I know resent Harry Potter for incorrectly presenting magic. They see Harry Potter as nothing more than an story, where the idea of magic is used to spin a fantastical tale, and making magic out to be a lot of hocus pocus, in a time when they are trying to gain credibility as a serious religion. They certainly don't see Harry Potter as doing them any favors. doing them any favors. I'd be interested to read where wiccans actually praise Harry Potter.

 

[Myah]

could you provide proof of this? The Wiccans I know resent Harry Potter for incorrectly presenting magic. They see Harry Potter as nothing more than an story, where the idea of magic is used to spin a fantastical tale, and making magic out to be a lot of hocus pocus, in a time when they are trying to gain credibility as a serious religion. They certainly don't see Harry Potter as doing them any favors. doing them any favors. I'd be interested to read where wiccans actually praise Harry Potter.

I'm Wiccan and I love Harry Potter. Until I came to CF, I assumed most knew that the stories were just that...stories. So I really didn't have any resentment. I like it because the plots are always about standing up for what you believe in and friendship.

 

[amnesiac]

Myah,

but do you think Harry Potter actually furthers your wiccan beliefs or practices? What I am trying to establish is exactly what you said. These stories are fiction, and not based in actual white or black magic practices.

 

[Origen]

It's called literature, folks ... settle down.

Here's an antidote for folks who think Harry Potter is unChristian, a review of A Charmed Life : The Spirituality of Potterworld by Francis Bridger:

The irony inherent in the suspicious reception of Harry Potter by conservative Christians, so different from their embrace of the equally magical worlds of J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis, is not lost on Bridger, a theologian and principal of Trinity College in Bristol, England. This gently eloquent book points out the many ways in which J.K. Rowling is heir not only to Tolkien and Lewis's imaginative tradition, but to their theological tradition as well. While he scrupulously refrains from guessing what Rowling herself believes indeed, he strangely fails to cite her public affirmation that she is a member of the Church of Scotland and had her daughter christened there he is eager to unearth the distinct, if perhaps residual, Christian underpinnings of Rowling's moral universe. In her stark treatment of good and evil, her account of moral development and even her approach to magic (which he argues is more a literary device than the central interest of her writing), Bridger sees parallels between Rowling's world and that constructed by Christian faith. He reads Rowling with some sophistication, especially in his penultimate chapter, which offers some intriguing guesses about the shape of the series as a whole and the changing role of magic within it. If his writing has a certain air of professorial condescension, Bridger still offers more than enough reasons for Christians to follow Rowling's subsequent work with interest if they have not already placed their pre-order for volume five.

amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385506651/

 

[Origen]

What is happening today happened before. The archangel Lucifer fell from heaven like the bolt of lightening on Harry’s forehead. In the days of Noah, some of the fallen angels illegally infiltrated the human race.

Interesting. I've always searched the Bible for fallen angels that infiltrated the human race. Could you please give me the scripture? Just PM me as I don't know how to get back to this thread. I can get lost in the labyrinth of Christianforums very easily.

Here you are, the Prelude to the Flood Story:

More and more people were born, until finally they spread all over the earth. Some of their daughters were so beautiful that supernatural beings came down and married the ones they wanted. Then the LORD said, "I won't let my life-giving breath remain in anyone forever. No one will live for more than one hundred twenty years." The children of the supernatural beings who had married these women became famous heroes and warriors. They were called Nephilim and lived on the earth at that time and even later.

The phrase "Hebrew camp fire story" comes back to mind.

 

[Myah]

Myah,

but do you think Harry Potter actually furthers your wiccan beliefs or practices? What I am trying to establish is exactly what you said. These stories are fiction, and not based in actual white or black magic practices.

No..I don't. Harry Potter is not a Wiccan book at all. It's fiction. Anyone who has done a study of Wiccan will tell you the same thing.
For one thing, there is no such thing as Black or White magic. Magic is magic. It's neutral. THe only evil comes when it is used with a malicious intent. Then it's the person's doing, not magic's.
For another, wands are used yes, but only as a concentration tool. They don't have unicorn hair, or dragon heartstring in them. I personally don't go waving mine around with a swish and flick.
And I don't use bototuber puss...or boomslang skin.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

I'm sorry. I usually am more tactful than this but: People who think that Harry Potter is a recruiting tool for the occult that 'teaches' children magic make me want to go and cry in my room in the dark for the lost intelligence of mankind.

 

[freespirit2001]

I don't know if you are asking "What is magic?" or "Does magic really exist in this life?" or just questioning about all the drama of the movies about magicl powers...or the market that supports all the public interest in the drama about Harry Potter....Merlin...The Rings...etc



Many cultures and ancient beliefs held views and values in magic...folk beliefs tend to look for secret knowledge and hidden esoteric wisdom through legendary people who claim to use magic as their power......people look to magic as an art much as they do in drama, theater and the movies, and good stories in literature...

In psychology, there are more scientific reasons why people and culture have looked for legends of myth to base their beliefs from...C.G. Jung has books of the nature of dreams and why men look to fanciful images he describes as "archetypes"....Rollo May writes a book, "The Cry For Myth" that gives more scientific insight into the purpose of magic in our dreams to find higher life purpose and meaning in life...


In any study or art or science there is a market to buy and sell concepts of myth and legends....it is a big market out there selling legends of magic and myth and great public interest in that market...

Some of us need myth as a tool for better self-assertiveness and insight into deeper parts of our nature...knowledge and studies about more psychology and spiritual insight is probably more intelligent and real to apply values of magic to...than just dwelling on the drama of the myth....there can be more real life actualization of faith and healing that is real life that is out there---its better to balance some of your "love of magic" with real life knowledge and skills of what makes for good actualized faith...understanding real life empathy with the spiritual values in the word of God...having an active faith...asking relevant questions in prayer to God and finding validation in messages in life around you...it may appear to be magic to an unbeliever...but it is actualized faith...

There are many psychological concepts out there (In my business management class---behavior management science ---there are people with perception and expert power that are realy intelligent and perceptive...and seem to know what you are thinking...and encourage you to know things a little ahead of others...(theres a name for it that concept)---it all appears magical to me....developing good conceptual skills of motivational principles and staying grounded in the reality of good skill developement---planning and focusing on good timing---good time management skills is also a good basis for actualizing faith...

Those movies are fun to watch....and appear to have hidden knowledge in them...but real life psychology and spiritual insight has alot of answers to a what "magic" holds to the public's past time interests...

Alot of kids in their 20's hold on to their dreams...thats important...