Magic in Judaism and in Christianity

[Oseas]

I think a main difference would be in the spiritual transformation that exists in Christianity called being born again. When someone is born again, their inner person is no longer as the dust of the earth but as the air, heaven, sky.

Greetings

Very very true. Excellent post. And all them which really was born again, it means was born from God, from the seed of God, they will yet be better and more perfect now in this seventh and last millennium, the milennium of Christ, or seventh and last Day, the Lord's Day, and they will enter in the kingdom of God as was promised unto them which believed in the testimony of God by /through His Son, our Lord JESUS Christ. JESUS said: Luke 20:v.35-36:
- 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
- 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.---> Colossians 3:v.1-17 from which I highlight 4 verses:
1 If ye (we) then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye (we)are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. -Creator-
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

To the only wise God our Saviour, be Glory and Majesty, Dominion and Power, both now and ever. Amen.

 

[Oseas]

Indeed. Many make out Satan to be some sort of demi-god with near God like powers, a very dualistic view of the religion. This is just not how scripture, the early church, or Judaism treat or should treat Satan.

Revelation 1:v. 1 - :The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John:

Revelation 12:v.7-13
7 And there was WAR in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the Dragon; and the Dragon fought and his angels, - Who are them? 2Cor.11:v.13-15 - angels of churches
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.-heavenly environment planted here by God through JESUS- Ephesians 1:v.3
9 And the great (red)Dragon was cast out, that old serpent,called the Devil,and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, NOW IS COME SALVATION, and strength, and the Kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB, and by the Word of their testimony; and THEY loved not their lives unto the death. -Even the archangel Michael-

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the Devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the Dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.-Michael-

 

[Oseas]

Have you been shown these things or have you just read about them in a book?

The words I wrote in my messages are not after man, nor have I received from man, nor have I been taught, but by the revelation of my Father God, according to the will of my Lord Jesus, the Christ, as written in the book of the Lord .

 

[Oseas]

Answer the question.

Post 43

 

[Robban]

Post 43

OK, thanks for your answer.

 

[Robban]

Indeed. Many make out Satan to be some sort of demi-god with near God like powers, a very dualistic view of the religion. This is just not how scripture, the early church, or Judaism treat or should treat Satan.

The Satan is a job description with limitations depending on

what it is allowed to do for a certain purpose.

Example, Book of Job.

 

[tampasteve]

The Satan is a job description with limitations depending on

what it is allowed to do for a certain purpose.

Example, Book of Job.

I agree completely.

 

[tampasteve]

Revelation 1:v. 1 - :The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John:

Revelation 12:v.7-13
7 And there was WAR in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the Dragon; and the Dragon fought and his angels, - Who are them? 2Cor.11:v.13-15 - angels of churches
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.-heavenly environment planted here by God through JESUS- Ephesians 1:v.3
9 And the great (red)Dragon was cast out, that old serpent,called the Devil,and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, NOW IS COME SALVATION, and strength, and the Kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB, and by the Word of their testimony; and THEY loved not their lives unto the death. -Even the archangel Michael-

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the Devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the Dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.-Michael-

How do any of those scriptures justify elevating Satan to the level of a demigod with near God like powers over the earth? They show he fought with God and was cast out to the Earth, but they do not show a near God like power.

 

[Zoness]

Judaism and Christianity share the Old Testament yet their attitudes towards the practice of magic are very different. The practice of magic is often accepted within Judaism as long as it aligns with the will of God. In contrast, the practice of magic is mostly scorned within Christianity regardless of its purpose (although there have been Christians who practiced magic privately).

I wonder why the two religions have different attitudes while sharing the Old Testament? The Old Testament verses that Christians often quote about magic seem pretty unambiguous. Yet, Jews apparently understand the verses differently.

Here is an interesting article about magic in Judaism for anybody who is interested:
The Weird and Wondrous World of Jews and Magic

I know its a bit deviant from your question but Jewish esoteric mysticism was the first thing that kind of brought me back to religion after being disaffected with Christianity. In some ways I credit it for the long path I ultimately traveled down so it holds a fond place in my heart.

 

[Oseas]

How do any of those scriptures justify elevating Satan to the level of a demigod with near God like powers over the earth? They show he fought with God and was cast out to the Earth, but they do not show a near God like power.

What does the Word of God say? Isaiah prophesied saying: Is.14:v.12-15:

v.12 - How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! (Comments: This peophecy will fulfil LITERALLY from now on: Revelation 12:v.9 - And the great Dragon(verses 3-4) was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.)

v.13 - For thou hast said in thine heart: (1) I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God (above the God's people, but the Lord said: Obadiah 1:v.4 - Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy NEST among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the Lord.): (2) I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: (Comments: Why does Satan intends to exalt his throne in the sides of the north? The why is in Psalms 48:v.2: 2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King. You see? Satan intends to usurper the place that belongs exclusively to the Lord JESUS Christ. The verse 14 confirms this satanic intention of Satan, as follows:

v.14 - I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (Comments: Let us see what
2Thes.2:v.3-4&9 reveal: 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that Day(the Lord's Day) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition(in fact a former Cherub); 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,...)

v.15 - Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. (Comments: This will fulfil LITERALLY from now on: Revelation 20:v.1-4:
v.1 - And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
v.2 - And he laid hold on the Dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
v.3 - And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Remember: JESUS said: All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matt.28:v.18. Although JESUS being invisible now, he is already executing and will execute His words of Matthews 24:v.1-8, but I highlight verses 7-8:

v.7 - For nation shall rise against nation (G-7; G-20; EU; UN, among others, will be ALL DISSOLVED? Yes, they will) and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be FAMINES, and PESTILENCES(these things are already running), and earthquakes, in divers places. (Yea, earthquakes in divers places, but these earthquakes are specific to happen in this end of the times, even now in END of this world, as a great signal of the return of JESUS. The places where they must happen are of JESUS's choice. Let us get ready. Remember: JESUS said: Matt.24:v.25- Behold, I have told you before. (Yes, He predicted)

v.8 - All these are the beginning of sorrows.

 

[cloudyday2]

I know its a bit deviant from your question but Jewish esoteric mysticism was the first thing that kind of brought me back to religion after being disaffected with Christianity. In some ways I credit it for the long path I ultimately traveled down so it holds a fond place in my heart.

That seems on-topic to me

 

[dlamberth]

I know its a bit deviant from your question but Jewish esoteric mysticism was the first thing that kind of brought me back to religion after being disaffected with Christianity.

It's through the lens of Christian mysticism which is my connection to the Christian religion. That's where I came back to after leaving the religion.

 

[dlamberth]

I've enjoyed this thread. I know it's drifted a bit off topic, but it's made me self-reflect, contemplate and just think. What I'm thinking now is that to know Jesus and have accepted Him as one's Savior, there's absolutely no reason to have any Satan beliefs or images hanging around anywhere. I'm even wondering if they can get into the way of things. Jesus, in my mind at least, is not about Satan. Period! And I wonder why that's where people go. Satan as well as Hell bubbles up quite frequently as Christians pop in, they say their say, and after a short time leave this sub-forum.

I also wonder if the Christian religion could even work with out that Satan image behind so much of things.

 

[tampasteve]

What does the Word of God say? Isaiah prophesied saying: Is.14:v.12-15:

v.12 - How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! (Comments: This peophecy will fulfil LITERALLY from now on: Revelation 12:v.9 - And the great Dragon(verses 3-4) was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.)

v.13 - For thou hast said in thine heart: (1) I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God (above the God's people, but the Lord said: Obadiah 1:v.4 - Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy NEST among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the Lord.): (2) I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: (Comments: Why does Satan intends to exalt his throne in the sides of the north? The why is in Psalms 48:v.2: 2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King. You see? Satan intends to usurper the place that belongs exclusively to the Lord JESUS Christ. The verse 14 confirms this satanic intention of Satan, as follows:

v.14 - I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (Comments: Let us see what
2Thes.2:v.3-4&9 reveal: 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that Day(the Lord's Day) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition(in fact a former Cherub); 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,...)

v.15 - Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. (Comments: This will fulfil LITERALLY from now on: Revelation 20:v.1-4:
v.1 - And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
v.2 - And he laid hold on the Dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
v.3 - And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Remember: JESUS said: All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matt.28:v.18. Although JESUS being invisible now, he is already executing and will execute His words of Matthews 24:v.1-8, but I highlight verses 7-8:

v.7 - For nation shall rise against nation (G-7; G-20; EU; UN, among others, will be ALL DISSOLVED? Yes, they will) and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be FAMINES, and PESTILENCES(these things are already running), and earthquakes, in divers places. (Yea, earthquakes in divers places, but these earthquakes are specific to happen in this end of the times, even now in END of this world, as a great signal of the return of JESUS. The places where they must happen are of JESUS's choice. Let us get ready. Remember: JESUS said: Matt.24:v.25- Behold, I have told you before. (Yes, He predicted)

v.8 - All these are the beginning of sorrows.

None of those verses give Satan demigod powers.

 

[Starcomet]

I can easily answer this or at least offer my opinion, but I doubt few would event listen to me anyway .

 

[cloudyday2]

I can easily answer this or at least offer my opinion, but I doubt few would event listen to me anyway .

I'm curious about your opinion.

 

[Starcomet]

Magic and other supernatural practices within the bible is an interesting topic that generates some interesting views. The reason there is a difference between the view of magic in Judaism and in Christianity is largely because of the traditions surrounding the two. Judaism evolved from the culture of the ancient Israelites that appeared in a land surrounded by several cultures that believed strongly in a supernatural world full of spirits and strange powers. There were also many individuals during this time that engaged in many practices that were considered magical. The ancient Isreaelites were no different and they too engaged in magical practices until they abandoned polytheism and converted to monolatry/henotheism under King David in the worship of one God. At this point, specific forms of ritual practices and magic were considered unholy and idolatrous.

Within the Hebrew Testament, the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy are the most explicit against what the ancient Israelites were not meant to do in order to keep themselves holy in the eyes of God. While Deuteronomy 18 and Leviticus 19:26 are often translated today in English as some variation of banning "witchcraft, divination, familair spirits, black magic, augury, wizard, charms, spells, etc." scholars note that this is evidence that the translators are quite confused at the best way to translate these verses. When one looks at the original Hebrew you find that many of these passages (in particular Deuteronomy 18) list 8 occultic/magical practices and one or more of them are consider unholy: yid'oni, sho'el 'ov, qosem q'samim, m'onen, m'nachesh, chover chavar, m'khaseph, and doresh 'el hametim.

The interesting thing about these 8 prohibitions is that by the time much of the torah and the writings of the prophets was redacted and finalized, around 100 or so B.C.E, no Jewish scholar or priest knew what these words actually meant and especially during the first century C.E. Their meaning was so specific and ancient that the true meaning was lost. This has resulted in several Jewish sages and rabbi's interpreting what the words meant and coming to what they think is the best meaning of these words based on analyzing the word origins. yid'oni is an obscure word but it seems to imply any practice that calls upon a spirit or being not of God. sho'el 'ov and doresh 'el hametim both seem to refer to some form of necromancy and contacting the dead, but it is not clear how they are different. The word "ov" means a spirit of the dead if I recall. qosem q'samim and m'onen both refer to a form of divination, but it is unclear exactly what. qosem q'samim may refer to lots (this was a common divination practice even among Jews) and m'onen contains the word for clouds or air so maybe divination by clouds or air? m'nachesh contains the word for snake so it could refer to magic or divination associated with snakes such as Opiomancy, snake charming, or maybe it refers to casting spells by whispering or hissing like a snake. chover chavar seems to imply some form of rope magic involving tying of knots? m'khaseph is perhaps the clearest meaning as it refers to evil sorcery or black magic in general. This is actually the masculine version of the word and the word that appears in Exodus 22, m,'khasheifah, is the feminine version is often translated as "witch".

The word "ov" appears again in the Witch of Endor story. In the story she is called a "Witch" in English translations, but if properly translated she was called "Mistress of the Ov" which seems to imply she was a mistress of necromancy or dead spirits and not an evil sorceress or "witch".

With all of this, it is plain to see that the Hebrew Testament only forbids very specific forms of magic and divination. It says nothing about healing magic, calling upon angels, astrology, etc. This is why modern Judaism has such an ambivalent view towards magic and occultism. The true meaning of these words is unclear and what meaning can be derived would largely be based on opinion and would differ from one rabbi to the next. The consensus is that necromancy and evil or black magic is forbidden, but everything else is up in the air. The fact Judaism encourages discussion and debate over the meaning of the law and every learned Jew is allowed to form their own opinion on matters that are unclear or unsettled is why you see some Jews engaging in such practices.

Christianity however is a very modern creature compared to its Jewish ancestor and does not have ancient words whose meaning was lost. The New Testament rarely talks about magic and the occult except for the prohibition against pharmakon which is often translated as magic, but actually should be best translated as poisons or drugs. Many suppose magic users were also said to be skilled in poisons and potions so the two might have been lumped together. That is also where we get the word for pharmacy from. Outside of this, the new testament rarely touch on many magical or occult practices likely because many were already familiar with Jewish prohibitions on evil magic and thus did not need to be repeated, but Christian tradition has traditionally associated all magical and occult practices with demons and devil. It also should be pointed out that during the first century it was against Roman law to engage in any sort of magical or divinatory practice and it can be argued that Christianity inherited this prohibition when it sided more with Roman culture. Since Christianity is far more authoritative when it comes to conforming to the "official" doctrine than Judaism, one cannot form their opinion on such matters without being branded a heretic for it. During the medieval era and the renaissance however, you had many wise and learned Christian theologians and monks recognizing that the bible does not really forbid all forms of magic just demonic and evil kinds.

 

[Starcomet]

Here you go OP :

The Reality of Sorcerers, Witches and Magic from Bible Scriptures and Church Fathers


It's Condemned in the Old Testament also :


Stand now With Your Enchantments
And The Multitude Of YOUR SORCERIES,
In which you have labored from your youth—
Perhaps you will be able to profit,
Perhaps you will prevail.
You are wearied in the multitude of your counsels;
Let now The Astrologers, The Stargazers,
And The Monthly Prognosticators
Stand up and save you
From what shall come upon you.
Behold, They Shall Be As Stubble,
The Fire Shall Burn Them;
They shall not deliver themselves
From The Power Of The Flame;
It shall not be a coal to be warmed by,
Nor a fire to sit before!

• Isaiah 47:12-1414

.

Isaiah was not condemning magic here but the fact that nothing will save Babylon and its king from the wrath of God! Not magic, not merchants, not armies, no one will deliver it from the punishment of God.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Isaiah was not condemning magic here but the fact that nothing will save Babylon and its king from the wrath of God! Not magic, not merchants, not armies, no one will deliver it from the punishment of God.

There shall Not be found among you Anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, Anyone Who Practices Divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, Or A Sorcerer a Medium Or A Necromancer or one who inquires of the dead,

• Deuteronomy 18:10-11


.

 

[Oseas]

None of those verses give Satan demigod powers.

Friend, you say you are Lutheran. So, tell me, who are this deus (small letter) referred in 2 Corinthians 4v.4? ... the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Therefore, having this ministry, as we have received mercy, we cannot faint having renounced the hidden things of dishonesty and walking in craftiness, nor handling the Word of God deceitfully.

We must fight by manifestation of the Truth -God is the Truth - commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.