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Macroevolution:

stevil

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again: where is the evidence that the eye can evolve by evolution?
Oh, you were asking about evolution of the eye rather than the two types of eye.
All things with DNA are evolved things. The structure of the eye is contained in DNA.
Scientists have pondered how an eye as complex as we see them today in humans and other animals can have evolved in a stepwise fashion. David Attenborough has a clip on this showing various animals alive today showing various simple to more complex eyes. There are so many videos on youtube on this topic.


so if you will find only a watch on another f ar planet you cant conclude design by looking at the watch?
Does the watch have some sort of DNA? does it have a Crystalline structure?
 
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xianghua

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David Attenborough has a clip on this showing various animals alive today showing various simple to more complex eyes. There are so many videos on youtube on this topic.

like this image?:

05a3a4f81ce5ce3ed0f5652e19c05071.jpg


FERRARI


Does the watch have some sort of DNA? does it have a Crystalline structure?

lets say yes.
 
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Kylie

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I did indeed: and I stand behind that quote 100%.

Yes, I fully expect you would...

But that quote wouldn't answer his question about how I feel about the government supporting DNA sequencing with my taxes.

Why not? Is it because you don't already have a preconceived idea about it that you don't want to critically examine?

The quote is a good one.

Not it isn't.

It basically points out that one doesn't have to know anything about A, if one believes -A to be true.

I don't need to know anything about Jesus to know he didn't resurrect from the dead after dying for our sins.

Do you see now why the argument doesn't work? It basically gives people an excuse to just go with whatever they believe, rather than actually examining claims to see which is true.

I know very little about Mormonism , but I know enough to stay away from it.

And they probably say the same thing about your particular branch of Christianity.

Doesn't make either of you right.
 
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Kylie

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What if he wants to give a theological reason instead?

Then he's basically saying, "A is not true because I've been told that A is false for so long that I can't bring myself to question it."
 
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Kylie

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again: where is the evidence that the eye can evolve by evolution?

For crying out loud, you have access to the internet. Do you not know how to find stuff online? Evolution of the eye - Wikipedia

Even my daughter doesn't need me to do her homework for her anymore, are you really less capable than a teenage girl?
 
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stevil

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I know you aren't going to put any credence to this but I just looked it up and thought it was pertinent.

Early human migrations - Wikipedia
Ethiopia is considered one of the earliest sites of the emergence of anatomically modern humans, Homo sapiens. The oldest of these local fossil finds, the Omo remains, were excavated in the southwestern Omo Kibish area and have been dated to the Middle Paleolithic, around 200,000 years ago.[9] Additionally, skeletons of Homo sapiens idaltu were found at a site in the Middle Awash valley. Dated to approximately 160,000 years ago, they may represent an extinct subspecies of Homo sapiens, or the immediate ancestors of anatomically modern humans.[10] Fossils excavated at the Jebel Irhoud site in Morocco have since been dated to an earlier period, about 300,000 years ago

The oldest DNA evidence of human habitation in North America however, has been radiocarbon dated to 14,300 years ago, and was found in fossilized human coprolites uncovered in the Paisley Five Mile Point Cavesin south-central Oregon.[19] Colonization of the Pacific islands of Polynesia began around 1300 BC, and was completed by 1280 AD (New Zealand). The ancestors of Polynesians left Taiwan around 5,200 years ago

Dating of teeth from China provides evidence of an early migration of modern humans from Africa into Southeast Asia before 80,000 - 120,000 years ago
 
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xianghua

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For crying out loud, you have access to the internet. Do you not know how to find stuff online? Evolution of the eye - Wikipedia

Even my daughter doesn't need me to do her homework for her anymore, are you really less capable than a teenage girl?
see my ferarri example above. making objects in order dont prove they evolved from each other. even if they were able to reproduce.
 
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PsychoSarah

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but we do find gears in nature:

This Tiny Bug Has a Gear in its Leg

so nature is unexpected.
-_- you missed my point entirely. There's no reason to think a wristwatch of flesh would ever develop. That physical shape lends no help to survival and has no natural precedent. Why would being able to tell time demand a watch-like structure when chemical time cues already exist in nature?

Likewise, an organism made of fire is also not plausible. Or are you going to say "nature is unexpected, you can't eliminate the possibility entirely so I'm going to act as if the information you present doesn't matter". Because that attitude gets you nowhere.



but it predate the first fishpod. so it indeed break the hierarchy. like my jet example.
-_- no, that just means that the "fishpod" is a part of a deviating branch and that organisms like it also existed much earlier. Consider lungfish: nothing stops intermediate forms from persisting long after they first appear. The modern lungfish obviously is not transitional between modern fish and amphibians, but that doesn't mean an ancient lungfish wouldn't qualify for that as well. However, toss a rabbit in there and the entire hierarchy is absolutely destroyed.

But hey, you like to act as if the theory of evolution exclusively has wiggle room to adjust to new information. Do you think atomic theory would be disproven if it was found that the masses of protons, electrons, and neutrons were off by 25%? Would that make atoms not exist? No. Heck, what if an additional type of matter that has 4 different types of charged particles in it was discovered? Would that mean standard atoms stop having their properties? No.

The potential to be amended over being outright disproven exists for all scientific theories. Stop being so salty about evolution. Also, your source is National Geographic. I've already told you that it's not a reliable source.



by the same logic: if human evolve from a rat-like ancestor ( lets call it 0) about 70my ago, then even a 50 my fossil of human will make no problem for evolution.
No, because evolution has limiting factors on its speed. That is, mutation rates can only be so high.

and we can stiil claim that human evolve from an ape-like ancestor even that the first ape (lets say about 30 my)appeared after the first human.
-_- if the first ape was human (remember, humans are apes), our genes would reflect that. That is, humans would be genetically closer to all other mammals than any other ape was. This is not the case. I am tired of your ceaseless, empty claims that evolution can work around any hypothetical situation.

This is the end of me tolerating it.
You can claim that evolution could work around these situations all day every day, but guess what? The situations you outline do not exist. There is no self-replicating car. There is no biological watch. There is no 50 million year old human fossil. You don't see me trying to discredit Christianity by saying "What if Odin exists, what now?" If your only contention with a theory is hypothetical situations you THINK would cause problems, you need to seriously rethink your views. I shouldn't actually have to find evidence that would disprove evolution in order to get it through to you that the theory can be disproven.
 
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AV1611VET

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I know you aren't going to put any credence to this but I just looked it up and thought it was pertinent.

Early human migrations - Wikipedia
That's like, ten thousand years from now, people finding a Ford Focus on Guam and claiming cars started out on Guam, based on said discovery yielding the oldest known car to date.
 
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quatona

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That's like, ten thousand years from now, people finding a Ford Focus on Guam and claiming cars started out on Guam, based on said discovery yielding the oldest known car to date.
...which would be much closer to the truth than claiming that a supernatural entitiy had created it ex nihilo one year ago with an embedded age of 1000years.
 
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xianghua

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-_- you missed my point entirely. There's no reason to think a wristwatch of flesh would ever develop. That physical shape lends no help to survival and has no natural precedent. Why would being able to tell time demand a watch-like structure when chemical time cues already exist in nature? .

why not? it can help in many situations for humans. for instance: a human can use this watch to meet someone.


-_- no, that just means that the "fishpod" is a part of a deviating branch and that organisms like it also existed much earlier.

i can say the same thing to my car into airplane example.
 
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lesliedellow

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why not? it can help in many situations for humans. for instance: a human can use this watch to meet someone.

Would it help a human survive long enough to reproduce, and pass on his genes?
Is it physiologically possible?
Are there any mutations which could lead to the evolution of a built in timepiece?
Are the environmental pressures present that would cause natural selection to kick in?

Creationists coming up with some kind of fantasy, and then saying why couldn't that evolve? establishes nothing, except their ignorance of even the basic mechanisms of evolution.
 
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stevil

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That's like, ten thousand years from now, people finding a Ford Focus on Guam and claiming cars started out on Guam, based on said discovery yielding the oldest known car to date.
They dug up evidence of human remains that are much older than 6020 years ago.

It would be remarkable if we found buried cars that are dated before 1769.
Cars had humble beginnings, below is one from 1893
duryea.jpg

If we dug up a car from 4,000 years ago that looked somewhat like a modern day Ferrari, it would be a monumental discovery, it would blow away many of our current ideas. We would be compelled to find a explanation for this amazing discovery. It would be the discovery of the millennium.

However, finding human remains well older than 6,000 years does not blow away anyone, apparently not even those people whom insist that humans have only been on earth for 6,000 years.

If we were to find human remains older than 65 million years ago (when the dinosaurs were around) then that would be astonishing, it would blow away many of our current ideas, (it would certainly disprove humanities place in our evolutionary model) we would have to rethink the scientific history of humans on Earth (it's flow on effect would be enormous, how come human DNA is so close to that of other apes, even though perhaps humans are not of Earth origins?) . Which is the thing about science. It is based atop of empirical evidence and includes the ability to be falsified. When it is falsified we are forced to change our ideas, our understanding, our knowledge of things previously thought to be true.

Apparently, if we instead based our worldview on theology or philosophy, we wouldn't need to care about evidence, we would never have to change our ideas, understanding or knowledge, we can simply choose to believe we are right in spite of conflicting empirical evidence.
 
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AV1611VET

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They dug up evidence of human remains that are much older than 6020 years ago.
So?

1. "Are much older," - or - "are dated much older"? I say you left an important word out.

2. How do you know they were coming out of Africa and not going into Africa?
 
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stevil

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So?

1. "Are much older," - or - "are dated much older"? I say you left an important word out.

2. How do you know they were coming out of Africa and not going into Africa?
These are good questions.

There is much evidence supporting the dating methods.


There is much evidence supporting the idea that humans originated in Africa and migrated out rather than the other way around. Fossil evidence for example, and DNA evidence. There are DNA markers that all people outside of Africa have but which virtually no-one in Africa has. This maker developed after the migration from Africa but before the spread of humans across the rest of the world. There are other DNA markers also that show further migration across the globe
Using DNA to Trace Human Migration | HHMI's BioInteractive
 
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lesliedellow

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So?

1. "Are much older," - or - "are dated much older"? I say you left an important word out.

2. How do you know they were coming out of Africa and not going into Africa?

Oh, good-o, we're back to God thr great deceiver, are we?
 
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AV1611VET

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There is much evidence supporting the idea that humans originated in Africa and migrated out rather than the other way around.
According to the Bible, one of Noah's sons settled in Africa.

Psalm 105:23 Israel also came into Egypt; and Jacob sojourned in the land of Ham.

Do you see how hard that would be to find evidence of people going to Africa?

Following that, the Bible says ...

Numbers 1:46 Even all they that were numbered were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty.

That means about 2.4 million people left Egypt with Moses.

That means it would be much easier to find people leaving Africa, than entering Africa.
 
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stevil

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According to the Bible, one of Noah's sons settled in Africa.

Psalm 105:23 Israel also came into Egypt; and Jacob sojourned in the land of Ham.

Do you see how hard that would be to find evidence of people going to Africa?

Following that, the Bible says ...

Numbers 1:46 Even all they that were numbered were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty.

That means about 2.4 million people left Egypt with Moses.

That means it would be much easier to find people leaving Africa, than entering Africa.
Yes, well, if there was a single boat with just a very few people on it and if a couple of those people went to Africa, it would be very hard to find evidence for that.
When did that happen?

A few questions for you, actually. I'm a bit interested to understand this Noah narrative.
You say he had three sons and they were the first Africans, Asians and Caucasians.
Did Noah's sons look like he had one African son, one Asian son and one Caucasian son?
Did they also have an African wife, Asian wife and Caucasian wife?

And the dark skinned ones just happened to go to hot places with lots of sun and the light skinned ones happened to go to the cold places with not much sunlight. So it was kinda coincidence rather than the skin attributes being a product of those environments?

Or did their skin and other looks change once they were living in those environments?
 
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AV1611VET

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Yes, well, if there was a single boat with just a very few people on it and if a couple of those people went to Africa, it would be very hard to find evidence for that.
Yup. In fact, it would require faith to accept it as a true story, in my opinion.
stevil said:
When did that happen?
I'm not sure. Sometime after 2348 BC, the year of the Flood.
stevil said:
A few questions for you, actually. I'm a bit interested to understand this Noah narrative.
Sure thing! The Flood is my minor forte; creationism being my major.
stevil said:
You say he had three sons and they were the first Africans, Asians and Caucasians.
Yup.

This breaks it down even further: The Sixteen Grandsons Of Noah
stevil said:
Did Noah's sons look like he had one African son, one Asian son and one Caucasian son?
Did they also have an African wife, Asian wife and Caucasian wife?
I doubt it.
stevil said:
And the dark skinned ones just happened to go to hot places with lots of sun and the light skinned ones happened to go to the cold places with not much sunlight. So it was kinda coincidence rather than the skin attributes being a product of those environments?
I doubt it.
stevil said:
Or did their skin and other looks change once they were living in those environments?
I go with that explanation.
 
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