Lying is a sin, right?

[HELENz]

Ok, so a hypothetical dilemma for you...

In my Bible Study a few weeks ago, we were discussing ethics and morality (as usual). Somebody brought up the case of lying to protect someone's life. The ethical case study we used was short, simple and historical, as follows:

You are living during World War II. You are protecting/hiding a Jewish family in your house. An SS officer comes to your house looking for Jews. What would you do? Lying is considered a sin, but if you tell the truth the Jewish family could be killed. Would you outright lie to the SS officer to protect the Jewish family? Would you not outright lie, but not tell the truth either? Or would you, in moral conscience that lying is wrong, be forced to tell the officer the truth, even though the Jewish family could be killed? Or do you have some other answer? Discuss.

If you want to broaden this to similar issues, go ahead.

 

[Autumnleaf]

Lying of itself is not a sin. Most of the time it is though because it is done for selfish reasons. For example, when my mother inlaw was dying from pancreatic cancer I lied and told her she looked better than she did and encouraged her to hang in there. I could have told the truth, she looked like death warmed over and she was talking nonsense most of the time.

That, versus lying about being sick so you can go to the zoo with your kids and you can see which is more acceptable ethically.

 

[BobW188]

I would not only lie but, if he tried to force a search, I'd do my best to kill him.

This is a clear case of someone having the ability and opportunity put people at risk of death or great bodily harm, and who by coming to my house has placed them in jeopardy. Anything from lying to homicide is morally justifiable.

 

[Hog Red]

sin is a matter of the heart so in this case it would be a no brainer for me to lie.

 

[Unashamed Jesus Freak]

.........

 

[lawtonfogle]

Hm....that seems to go against what the Bible says in Revelation 21:8: "All liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire" and “a lying tongue” and “a false witness who pours out lies” as two of the seven abominations to the Lord (Proverbs 6:16-19). Other Scriptures clearly speak against lying: Psalm 119:29, Psalm 119:163; Psalm 120:2; Proverbs 12:22; Proverbs 13:5; Ephesians 4:25; and Colossians 3:9. In an instance such as Corrie ten Boom, who hid Jews in her home to protect them from the Nazis, lying may be the only possible way to prevent a horrible evil. However, such instances are extremely rare and the vast majority of people today will never face that kind of situation. Nevertheless, nowhere in the Bible is lying condoned or states there are instances where lying is the right thing to do.

Sounds like moral relativism to me...

 

[Beechwell]

Every system of values needs some way to determine which values take precedence in case of conflicts between them. Some kind of hierarchy, which values (or cammandments) are most important, and which are less so.
I think one problem of Chrisitan (and probably all religious) morality is that there is not clear official rule which values are more important, so everyone can construct a hierarchy as he sees fit.
Although especially in Christianity I think love your yourself and your "neighbours" is considered the most important commandment. So in the SS example, I think lying about the refugees is in this case more in the spirit of loving your neighbour (and probably loving yourself, too).

In my personal ethics, I would say that lying is as a rule less harmful to people (and society) than directly and severely endangering the well being of fellow humans, so the answer would be the same.

 

[The Nihilist]

Look what you did. You Godwinned your own thread. This is why we can't have nice things.

 

[HELENz]

You Godwinned your own thread. This is why we can't have nice things.

I'm sorry. I'm a noob. Godwinned?

 

[MoonLancer]

Sounds like moral relativism to me...

agreed. Absolute morality is that the action is always good or bad where relativism takes into account... i donno... circumstances.

 

[Wirraway]

... In an instance such as Corrie ten Boom, who hid Jews in her home to protect them from the Nazis, lying may be the only possible way to prevent a horrible evil. ....

if lying is a sin, its always a sin. better to understand that either the Nazis don't have a right to the truth when the purpose is to kill Jews, and that by not telling them what they want to know you prevent the Nazis from committing the sin of murder.

 

[BotanicalBob]

Nevertheless, nowhere in the Bible is lying condoned or states there are instances where lying is the right thing to do.

You know what that means. Means don't listen to the Bible. There instance such as this where lying is the only moral thing to do.

Or course those instances aren't very common.

 

[SithDoughnut]

I'm sorry. I'm a noob. Godwinned?

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1" - Godwin's Law

This law has been extended to mean that whoever compares something to the Nazis automatically loses the debate, purely because of all the people who say 'The Nazis did this, therefore it is wrong' or something similar.

It doesn't really fit into this context anyway, so don't worry about it - nobody is saying you've lost anything. Just a bit of internet subculture for you.

 

[Wirraway]

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1" - Godwin's Law

This law has been extended to mean that whoever compares something to the Nazis automatically loses the debate, purely because of all the people who say 'The Nazis did this, therefore it is wrong' or something similar.

It doesn't really fit into this context anyway, so don't worry about it - nobody is saying you've lost anything. Just a bit of internet subculture for you.

yeah, but "would you turn in Anne Frank?" is the classic way of phrasing this issue. so its not really an example of Godwin's Law or Reductio ad Hitlerum.

 

[HELENz]

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1" - Godwin's Law

This law has been extended to mean that whoever compares something to the Nazis automatically loses the debate, purely because of all the people who say 'The Nazis did this, therefore it is wrong' or something similar.

It doesn't really fit into this context anyway, so don't worry about it - nobody is saying you've lost anything. Just a bit of internet subculture for you.

Oh, alright. Thanks for the information!

 

[silence_dogood]

Ok, so a hypothetical dilemma for you...

In my Bible Study a few weeks ago, we were discussing ethics and morality (as usual). Somebody brought up the case of lying to protect someone's life. The ethical case study we used was short, simple and historical, as follows:

You are living during World War II. You are protecting/hiding a Jewish family in your house. An SS officer comes to your house looking for Jews. What would you do? Lying is considered a sin, but if you tell the truth the Jewish family could be killed. Would you outright lie to the SS officer to protect the Jewish family? Would you not outright lie, but not tell the truth either? Or would you, in moral conscience that lying is wrong, be forced to tell the officer the truth, even though the Jewish family could be killed? Or do you have some other answer? Discuss.

If you want to broaden this to similar issues, go ahead.

There are two answers to this.

The first is that it would still be a sin to tell a lie, that it would be your responsibility to tell the truth and that the consequences would be God's responsibility, since it would be His commands you're following.

The second is that the question is an unjust question and so you are not under any obligation to tell the truth.

The third option, of course, would be to refuse to answer but if you do, it would almost certainly be construed as an affirmative answer.

People often point to Rahab, but remember that although Rahab was considered a heroine for her lie, the Bible never tells us that it was excused by God.

I believe that I would be wrestling with two responsibilities: to tell the truth and to protect the innocent and in this case, I believe that my responsibility to protect the innocent would outweigh my responsibility to tell the truth.

However, if lying meant putting my own family in jeopardy, then my first priority would be to protect my own family.

And then there is still the matter that it may be God's will that they be found by the Nazis.

 

[Wirraway]

There are two answers to this.

The first is that it would still be a sin to tell a lie, that it would be your responsibility to tell the truth and that the consequences would be God's responsibility, since it would be His commands you're following. ....

why do you think the Nazis are entitled to the truth?

 

[UnionJack]

Hm....that seems to go against what the Bible says in Revelation 21:8: "All liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire" and “a lying tongue” and “a false witness who pours out lies” as two of the seven abominations to the Lord (Proverbs 6:16-19). Other Scriptures clearly speak against lying: Psalm 119:29, Psalm 119:163; Psalm 120:2; Proverbs 12:22; Proverbs 13:5; Ephesians 4:25; and Colossians 3:9. In an instance such as Corrie ten Boom, who hid Jews in her home to protect them from the Nazis, lying may be the only possible way to prevent a horrible evil. However, such instances are extremely rare and the vast majority of people today will never face that kind of situation. Nevertheless, nowhere in the Bible is lying condoned or states there are instances where lying is the right thing to do.

do you honestly think
God would throw a rage against you
because you told a lie to keep a family alive

 

[silence_dogood]

why do you think the Nazis are entitled to the truth?

The argument from those who hold to that position is that people are not more or less entitled to the truth because of their politics. We tell the truth, not because of who they are, but because of who God is and what He has commanded us to do.

 

[Wirraway]

The argument from those who hold to that position is that people are not more or less entitled to the truth because of their politics. We tell the truth, not because of who they are, but because of who God is and what He has commanded us to do.

do not misrepresent my position again.

only people who are entitled to the truth can be lied to.

simple example: a poker player can misrepresent his hand in a bluff because the opponents have no right to the truth. the illegal government imposed by the nazis has no right to the truth, a misrepresentation of fact by the heroes who hid Jews is not a lie.

moreover, misrepresenting facts to the Nazis when it saved lives also prevented the Nazis from committing even more sins. and you don't want to facilitate a sin, do you?