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Lutherans and Grace

FireDragon76

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In Lutheran thought, is grace resistible or irresistible?

I've read that Luther's student, Melcanthon, said that there were 3 causes of ones predestination, and the non-resistance to grace was one of those causes, so he is implying that grace is resistible. But I know Melcanthon is not the final voice in Lutheranism.
 

Lizabth

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Rev, are you WELs? Seems some WELsians tend to run to enthusiasm, decision theology. WE have the power etc. Law(we do, we turn, etc) vs gospel(God does, He turns us, etc).

You're simply wrong, my dear. God's grace towards his elect IS irresistible. Not so, to the reprobate.

From the SF, on election:

48] Moreover, this doctrine affords glorious consolation under the cross and amid temptations, namely, that God in His counsel, before the time of the world, determined and decreed that He would assist us in all distresses [anxieties and perplexities], grant patience [under the cross], give consolation, excite [nourish and encourage] hope, and produce such an outcome as would contribute to our salvation. Also, as Paul in a very consolatory way treats this, Rom. 8:28. 29. 35. 38. 39, that God in His purpose has ordained before the time of the world by what crosses and sufferings He would conform every one of His elect to the image of His Son, and that to every one His cross shall and must work together for good, because they are called according to the purpose, whence Paul has concluded that it is certain and indubitable that neither tribulation, nor distress, nor death, nor life, etc., shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus, our Lord.

From our Lord (John 10):
"
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me,[a] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”


This may help you understand the Ezekiel in proper context:



"

Gill's Exposition of the Entire BibleBut when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness,.... This is to be understood, not of a truly righteous man; for no man can be so denominated from his own righteousness; but from the righteousness and obedience of Christ; and such a man cannot turn from his righteousness; for that is the righteousness of God, and can never be lost; and is an everlasting one, and will always endure; and with which eternal life is inseparably connected: but this is to be interpreted of one that is reckoned so from his own righteousness, what he himself has done, and not from another, from the righteousness of Christ, which he has wrought out; he is one that is righteous in his own esteem, and in the account of others; who is outwardly righteous before men; who trusts in himself that he is righteous, and trusts to his own righteousness; see Ezekiel 33:13; whose righteousness is not an evangelical one, but either a ceremonial righteousness, or at most a mere moral one, consisting of some negative holiness, and a few moral performances, as appears from Ezekiel 18:5; and from such a righteousness as this a man may turn, commit iniquity, sin and die; see 2 Peter 2:20; and is no proof or instance of the apostasy of real saints, true believers, or truly righteous men; besides, this man is represented as a transgressor, or "prevaricator", as the word signifies; a hypocrite, a man destitute of the truth of grace, and of true righteousness:
and committeth iniquity; makes a trade of sinning; goes into a vicious course of life, and continues in it; which a truly gracious man, one that is born again, and has true faith in Christ's righteousness, by which he is justified, can never do, 1 John 3:8;
and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth; such as theft, murder, adultery, idolatry, oppression of the poor, and giving upon usury, Ezekiel 18:10;
shall he live? in his own land, in peace and prosperity, enjoying all manner of good things? he shall not; much less shall he live an eternal life, so living and dying:
all his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: or, "all his righteousnesses" (k); all the good works which he has done will never come into any account, or be of any avail; as they merited nothing, they will meet with no reward; they will not preserve him from present calamity, which his now sinful life exposes him to, nor secure him from eternal ruin; these may be mentioned and pleaded by himself, but to no purpose; God will not mention them, nor take any notice of them, nor the Judge at the great day of account, Matthew 7:22;
in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die; or, for his hypocrisy, "prevarication" (l), and vicious course of life he now lives in, a death of affliction shall come upon him; great calamities and distresses in this world; and, if grace prevent not, eternal death in the other; if he dies in his trespasses and sins, he will die the second death.
(k) "omnes justitiae ejus", V. L. Pagninus, Montanus, Cocceius.
(l) "propter prvevaricationem ipsius, vel suam", Junius & Tremellius, Piscator, Polanus."
 
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LilLamb219

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Insulting pastors really doesn't help the conversation any. If you want to know why he believes as he does, just ask, you don't have to belittle him.

Lutherans are bound to sin. We automatically are born rejecting the Savior. Once God gives us the gift of faith, we CAN reject it instead of receiving it. Receiving is not something WE actively do, it is done to us.
 
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DaRev

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Insulting pastors really doesn't help the conversation any. If you want to know why he believes as he does, just ask, you don't have to belittle him.

Lutherans are bound to sin. We automatically are born rejecting the Savior. Once God gives us the gift of faith, we CAN reject it instead of receiving it. Receiving is not something WE actively do, it is done to us.

Don't waste your time responding to her. It's best to simply correct her erroneous responses to others. She hasn't clue one what Lutherans believe or teach.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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Honestly, Rev.....you sound a bit like an IFBaptist, not a Lutheran. YOU can turn away from God's electing Grace. YOU can be righteous on your own. YOU have to power to stymie God's call, God's electing grace.

Well, Lord knows, we all have our theological foibles. ;)

I find your attempt to "Educate" a LCMS pastor hilarious.
 
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alexnbethmom

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never mind the fact that he went to Concordia Seminary for years, never mind that he received a Masters of Divinity, never mind all the training he's been through, never mind that he has been a Pastor for 9 years - he apparently is a blithering idiot who has absolutely no clue what the h-e-double hockey sticks he's talking about, no basis to speak on any of this.

we should all just take our schooling from "my theology is all over the map".

</sarcasm>
 
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FireDragon76

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Thanks for answering the questions. It sounds like on this particular point, Lutherans are closer to Arminians or Wesleyans than Calvinists. I've never found the idea of irresistible grace credible, in terms of how I've read the Bible or my own religious experiences.

I may have more questions though, especially about Luther's concept of the "hidden God" and how that relates to modern Lutheran understandings of God's nature: which is more real, the hidden God or the revealed God?
 
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Moses Medina

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Thanks for answering the questions. It sounds like on this particular point, Lutherans are closer to Arminians or Wesleyans than Calvinists. I've never found the idea of irresistible grace credible, in terms of how I've read the Bible or my own religious experiences.

I may have more questions though, especially about Luther's concept of the "hidden God" and how that relates to modern Lutheran understandings of God's nature: which is more real, the hidden God or the revealed God?

correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't it be the other way around? Arminians and wesleyans came afterwards. ;-p

no but seriously I'm asking for education purposes
 
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FireDragon76

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correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't it be the other way around? Arminians and wesleyans came afterwards. ;-p

no but seriously I'm asking for education purposes

Arminius and Wesley came to their conclusions largely independent of Lutherans, though. Arminius was actually coming from a Calvinist/Reformed framework, and Wesley was influenced both by Arminius and the Eastern Cappodocian fathers (who would have been very much against the idea of irresistible grace) in how he understood grace (I'd argue Wesleyans see grace much as the Orthodox or Catholics do, as something metaphysical rather than merely a decree from God).
 
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