Luther and Calvin is heretics to EO?

FreeinChrist

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Posters who are not Eastern Orthodox need to remember they are guests in this forum, and they cannot debate against EO beliefs.
 
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HARK!

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ArmyMatt

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When I say developing and becoming institutional, I'm talking about within the antenicenes. Historical evidence of the early church in Ephesus and Rome shows a councilory governance, Corinth a congregational governance, and the episcopal model present within EO being something that these churches moved towards from the pressures of persecution. The interpretations of Matt. 16 appear more to be after-the-fact rationalizations rather than actually belonging to the apostolic era and the clerical/laity divisions are more developments of the early 3rd through 4th centuries. The sacramental theology that the church centers on also is something that developed in relation to crises and were practical solutions. The notions of tradition within the EO contain more of a mythical picture of history that only arises with distance and revision which is then read into the words of the fathers rather than fitting the historical picture the evidence alone paints.

so, how do the councilory, congregational, and episcopal models conflict in the Orthodox understanding? or rather, could it be possible that all of those are correct?

and how do you square your statement about the sacraments with what things like the Didache say?
 
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prodromos

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ADVISOR HAT

This thread is closed for review.

Posters who are not Eastern Orthodox need to remember they are guests in this forum, and they cannot debate against EO beliefs.
Since the thread has now been moved to St Justin Martyr's, where we do allow debate, it might be an idea to remove this post :wave:
 
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FreeinChrist

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No, it needs to stay per our protocol and if there are questions later. There is more to it that just removing it.

I will add something to the last mod hat.
 
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Fervent

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so, how do the councilory, congregational, and episcopal models conflict in the Orthodox understanding? or rather, could it be possible that all of those are correct?

and how do you square your statement about the sacraments with what things like the Didache say?
It's not that they conflict, but that looking at the history there is a clear development of theology often drawing more on pagan philosophers and practical concerns than any indication of an apostolic succession of bishops. Ultimately, the transmission of the church is a matter of faith but it seems to me there is too much history that's necessary to deny to uphold the notion of an unbroken church transmission outside of the Scripture itself. I'm not sure what specific statements you're refering to in the Didache, though my statement is simply that there was a development of sacramental theology and it's been my experience that generally the things people see in the early documents tends to be a reading later developments into texts rather than them actually being present. Though I will say I'm not really interested in debating the issue because there is more faith in believing the EO is the true church than analysis, so I am simply stating my conclusions from reading the early church literature and outside historical sources.
 
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ArmyMatt

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It's not that they conflict, but that looking at the history there is a clear development of theology often drawing more on pagan philosophers and practical concerns than any indication of an apostolic succession of bishops. Ultimately, the transmission of the church is a matter of faith but it seems to me there is too much history that's necessary to deny to uphold the notion of an unbroken church transmission outside of the Scripture itself. I'm not sure what specific statements you're refering to in the Didache, though my statement is simply that there was a development of sacramental theology and it's been my experience that generally the things people see in the early documents tends to be a reading later developments into texts rather than them actually being present. Though I will say I'm not really interested in debating the issue because there is more faith in believing the EO is the true church than analysis, so I am simply stating my conclusions from reading the early church literature and outside historical sources.

while it’s true that the Church used pagan terminology as a way to convert the Greeks and Romans, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the theology developed, just the articulation. which is something the NT does as well.
 
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Fervent

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while it’s true that the Church used pagan terminology as a way to convert the Greeks and Romans, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the theology developed, just the articulation. which is something the NT does as well.
Not necessarily, sure, but all of the markers of increasing sophistication are present in the written record. But again, I'm simply giving you my conclusion not seeking to persuade you as the issue appears to me to be more strictly a matter of faith than rational analysis.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Not necessarily, sure, but all of the markers of increasing sophistication are present in the written record. But again, I'm simply giving you my conclusion not seeking to persuade you as the issue appears to me to be more strictly a matter of faith than rational analysis.

sure, but increasing sophistication is what we see from Genesis. I know you’re not trying to persuade me, I am just not seeing how your points refute Orthodoxy’s claim.
 
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Fervent

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sure, but increasing sophistication is what we see from Genesis. I know you’re not trying to persuade me, I am just not seeing how your points refute Orthodoxy’s claim.
I wouldn't say there's increasing sophistication in Genesis, but a consistent theology throughout the Pentateuch and different perspectives in books like Chronicles or Joshua-2 Kings. The notion that there has been a theology handed down from the apostles doesn't really square with the historical picture where individuals argued various points until a tradition emerged. My conclusion is that the church is a theological development borne of practical considerations, not something that originated with the apostles and was handed down from there. If the claim of apostolic transmission were true the increasing sophistication would indicate a tampering or corrupting of the original message.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I wouldn't say there's increasing sophistication in Genesis, but a consistent theology throughout the Pentateuch and different perspectives in books like Chronicles or Joshua-2 Kings. The notion that there has been a theology handed down from the apostles doesn't really square with the historical picture where individuals argued various points until a tradition emerged. My conclusion is that the church is a theological development borne of practical considerations, not something that originated with the apostles and was handed down from there. If the claim of apostolic transmission were true the increasing sophistication would indicate a tampering or corrupting of the original message.

no, what I meant was if we go back to Genesis, we do see from the beginning throughout the OT and the NT the articulation of theology being polished and made more sophisticated, but that didn’t mean it was corrupted.
 
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Fervent

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no, what I meant was if we go back to Genesis, we do see from the beginning throughout the OT and the NT the articulation of theology being polished and made more sophisticated, but that didn’t mean it was corrupted.
Yeah, and I don't see an increasing sophistication across the OT. It also is distinctly different to say that there are theological developments across the inspired canon and another thing entirely to see further developments after the apostolic teachings. Increasing "sophistication" building on the apostolic teachings is, in fact, syncretism.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Yeah, and I don't see an increasing sophistication across the OT. It also is distinctly different to say that there are theological developments across the inspired canon and another thing entirely to see further developments after the apostolic teachings. Increasing "sophistication" building on the apostolic teachings is, in fact, syncretism.

are you opposed to the word Trinity? or saying Three Persons, One Nature? I say that because those are from pagan philosophy that Christians after the Apostles used.
 
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Fervent

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are you opposed to the word Trinity? or saying Three Persons, One Nature? I say that because those are from pagan philosophy that Christians after the Apostles used.
I'm not opposed to the theological development at all, it simply demonstrates that the notion of an apostolic tradition besides what we have in the canonical NT isn't so.
 
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prodromos

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Development implies that it is not pre-existent but is developed over time. An apostolic tradition handed down would have been pre-existent and had no need to be developed.
The apostolic tradition handed down had not had to face the various heresies that cropped up, and each time heresy threatened to tear the Church apart, the articulation of the apostolic tradition was refined to exclude the heretical interpretations. That isn't development of tradition, it is defense of tradition.
 
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Fervent

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The apostolic tradition handed down had not had to face the various heresies that cropped up, and each time heresy threatened to tear the Church apart, the articulation of the apostolic tradition was refined to exclude the heretical interpretations. That isn't development of tradition, it is defense of tradition.
That's one way to frame it, but the development took place more than simply in regard to heresies and even what the notion of "apostolic tradition" means has shifted over the course of history as the first mention in Irenaeus is to a well known public teaching, which likely refers to what came to be canonized as the NT. Modern notions of apostolic tradition sound more like the gnostic enemies Irenaeus was combatting than understanding the words with the relevant historical context in mind.
 
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prodromos

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Modern notions of apostolic tradition sound more like the gnostic enemies Irenaeus was combatting than understanding the words with the relevant historical context in mind.
Examples?
 
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ArmyMatt

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Development implies that it is not pre-existent but is developed over time. An apostolic tradition handed down would have been pre-existent and had no need to be developed.

can you show that it’s anything other than articulation or clarification?
 
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