Lust: Is it possible to control all your thoughts?

[Philothei]

No.
Yes it is, but I can't do it.
I can control all my thoughts my will is just that strong.
I haven't sinned in years.

Ok neither the answer is correct IMHO. You canot control ALL your thoughts...lol.For sure Christ would fall into that category; No human has lived and never sinned comes to mind.
So humans do sin do fall and then get up again and so forth... Sometimes we are bull's eye and sometimes we make mistakes. Yeah we do have bad thoughts. Christ said that we can sin in just "desiring" someone. But how much desiring is also the question. Our neigbour's wife..??? Hmm I think that the "longer" we desire the longer we 'lust'. A quick look and out mind wonders...yep it does. The issue is do we let it take root? Do we 'keep on looking" 'thinking" etc...Does it become lust as a passion in our heart? Do we let it linger for days weeks ...months etc? If we do that then yeah it is bad for our soul. If we pick it up like a weed and uproot it the same time we fall for it I say we are smart as the root is shallow

Makes sense?
I hope so.

But yeah sometimes we do have thoughts and in our times technology is making it harder indeed as it does not take much....

 

[OGM]

If humans could control all of their thoughts; they would have total control of their dreams.

 

[brightmorningstar]

But Acts and the epsitles show us what Jesus promised the outpouring of the Spirit. When we focus on Jesus Christ and are lead by the Spirit we dont think of what Jesus taught as wrong, when we focus on ourselves we fall short and do sin.

The answer to the OP is simple, Is it possible to control ones thoughts, yes. Is it possible to do this all the time, no. The life of the beliver is to focus on Christ and be lead by the Spirit.

 

[Jim Bob]

This assumes that thinking about sex is dirty and flows from a very puritan way of thinking. Can you back this perspective from the Bible, and can it be debunked from the Bible?

I guess thinking that thinking about sex is a sin is easy because when the bible condemns lust then one usually links lust to sex. I simply can't imagine that thinking about sex is okay in God's eyes. This what the world does. Do you know the Korn song "all day I think about sex"? That's what the unbelievers do. They look after beautiful women and then imagine in their minds having sex with them. I can't imagine that God does not have higher expectations from christians. And also, if thinking about sex is not a sin then why does the world tempt humans so much to think about sex with magazines and videos and all that stuff? Why do most female artists use sex to sell albums if sex was totally innocent? The fact that the world uses these methods also speaks for it being sin.
And what good does it do me when I embrace thoughts about sex and look at every woman and then encourage sexual thoughts? I'd assume that this would not have positive effects on me it would most likely only increase the sexual desire. When you want to lose weight for example then you also don't walk around in a bakery or candy shop all day and smell all the foods.
My problem is more that even though I try not to think anything sexual I can't always keep it all out.

There are situations for example when I'm tired or exhausted and then I also find it much harder to resist sexual thoughts when I see women and I think that being tired also plays a role.

And yet if you happened to stumble across them, you wouldn't know they were bad.

I don't think that this is true. That's like saying if you've never seen anybody getting killed and then see it for the first time you wouldn't know it's bad.

Porn always involves wanting to do something about it

Could you define wanting to do something about it? I don't know what this is supposed to mean. When one watches porn then what exactly is it that you want to do about it? It's not like you get up and then try to find out the address of the actress to stalk her, lol.

If hate is to murder as lust is to adultery, then the thoughts, by your reasoning, must affect your behavior and emotions towards other people. Does thinking about sex always have this outcome?

I don't understand what you mean with this.
Imagine you're married and you have dinner with your wife in a restaurant and there is a totally hot waitress and you look at her and think "Wow, she's so hot. I'd like to have sex with her" then this would clearly be a sin. It doesn't matter if you'd ever dare to do it but the thought alone would already have been a sin because you thought about cheating on your wife.
Do you agree with this?

Christ said that we can sin in just "desiring" someone. But how much desiring is also the question. Our neigbour's wife..??? Hmm I think that the "longer" we desire the longer we 'lust'. A quick look and out mind wonders...yep it does. The issue is do we let it take root? Do we 'keep on looking" 'thinking" etc...Does it become lust as a passion in our heart?

The question is how quickly can you sin in your thoughts? In my example I think you could sin in an instant you would not have to spend weeks and weeks thinking about the hot waitress and how you seduce her and then meet in a hotel room and have wild sex all night and how her body would look like and so on. I don't think that you'd have to entertain these thoughts for a long time in order for it to officially be sin. I think when you even think about sex with another woman it would be adultery.

 

[Zebra1552]

I guess thinking that thinking about sex is a sin is easy because when the bible condemns lust then one usually links lust to sex.

So this means that what immediately comes to mind is correct? I don't buy that.

I simply can't imagine that thinking about sex is okay in God's eyes. This what the world does. Do you know the Korn song "all day I think about sex"? That's what the unbelievers do. They look after beautiful women and then imagine in their minds having sex with them.

Hasty generalization. Not all unbelievers do this. For another thing, what you can or cannot imagine has no bearing on truth and falsehoods. Atheists can't imagine a loving God who requires an eternal punishment for any sin. Does this mean hell cannot exist? Of course not. Imagining having sex with people isn't the same as thinking about sex. Looking after beautiful women isn't the same as imagining having sex with people.

I can't imagine that God does not have higher expectations from christians. And also, if thinking about sex is not a sin then why does the world tempt humans so much to think about sex with magazines and videos and all that stuff?

Because it sells.

Why do most female artists use sex to sell albums if sex was totally innocent? The fact that the world uses these methods also speaks for it being sin.

Something being good advertising doesn't make it sinful. Sex sells. This is a well known and very well documented fact. That doesn't make all things sexual bad or wrong. It makes it appealing to a good portion of the population. Why do we have pretty women and pretty men up on stage leading worship? Why are good Christian bands those with good looking people in it, rather than those with the most talent? People don't want stuff that isn't appealing.

And what good does it do me when I embrace thoughts about sex and look at every woman and then encourage sexual thoughts? I'd assume that this would not have positive effects on me it would most likely only increase the sexual desire. When you want to lose weight for example then you also don't walk around in a bakery or candy shop all day and smell all the foods.

To the contrary, too much exposure to something leads to disliking it. I worked at a movie theater for 2 years. I hate popcorn and hot dogs. Hate them. The only way I will eat a hot dog is if it's put in front of me by a host so as to not insult them. I could use a more relevant example, but that's a bit more personal than hot dogs and popcorn.

My problem is more that even though I try not to think anything sexual I can't always keep it all out.

Does the Bible demand that you never think of anything sexual? Ever? All thoughts about sex are off limits? Prove it.

There are situations for example when I'm tired or exhausted and then I also find it much harder to resist sexual thoughts when I see women and I think that being tired also plays a role.

Maybe you need to define your terms here. What constitutes a 'sexual thought' and what doesn't?

I don't think that this is true. That's like saying if you've never seen anybody getting killed and then see it for the first time you wouldn't know it's bad.

Not really like that at all, no. You were talking about temptation, not that which is outright and obviously wrong, and then go on to talk about that which is outright and obviously wrong.

Could you define wanting to do something about it? I don't know what this is supposed to mean. When one watches porn then what exactly is it that you want to do about it? It's not like you get up and then try to find out the address of the actress to stalk her, lol.

No, but you imagine that YOU are the one having sex with her, not the other porn star. Not only do you want to do something about what you see- want to have sex with that specific person, you actively imagine yourself doing it with that specific person.

I don't understand what you mean with this.
Imagine you're married and you have dinner with your wife in a restaurant and there is a totally hot waitress and you look at her and think "Wow, she's so hot. I'd like to have sex with her" then this would clearly be a sin. It doesn't matter if you'd ever dare to do it but the thought alone would already have been a sin because you thought about cheating on your wife.
Do you agree with this?

You need to work on how you're defining things. You keep saying 'sexual thoughts' and 'thinking about sex', but you for whatever reason always give examples of thinking about having sex with a specific person.

A kid's sitting through sex ed. He's thinking, oh, okay, so the ovaries produce ovum which are by their nature resistant to sperm, and an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] that guys get has special fluids that protect the sperm produced by the testicles and the two meeting is called sex and THAT is what makes babies. I get it now.

That's thinking about sex. Is this wrong? Of course not. No one in their right mind would call this improper behavior or improper thinking.

The question is how quickly can you sin in your thoughts? In my example I think you could sin in an instant you would not have to spend weeks and weeks thinking about the hot waitress and how you seduce her and then meet in a hotel room and have wild sex all night and how her body would look like and so on.

Straw man argument. That's not what I'm calling 'wanting to do something about it'.

I don't think that you'd have to entertain these thoughts for a long time in order for it to officially be sin. I think when you even think about sex with another woman it would be adultery.

That's what you think. That isn't what the Bible says. Lust isn't just thoughts. Like I said, look it up for yourself and research it.

 

[Jim2011]

Just wanted to say thanks.
You are dealing with some of the same problems that I am troubled by.
Thought I should take a moment to say thank you.

Jim

 

[Jim Bob]

Imagining having sex with people isn't the same as thinking about sex. Looking after beautiful women isn't the same as imagining having sex with people.

I can't really imagine what you mean why don't you give clear examples this way it'll be much easier. Let's say you see a totally hot woman in the mall and this makes you feel a desire for her because she looks so unbelievably good and everything is so well shaped that it's already upsetting then what exactly would be allowed in your opinion and what would not be allowed? You say thinking about sex is okay but not thinking about sex with people. Then how does this help if you're turned on by a real person?
I don't know what you mean with thinking about sex. Are you talking about thinking about sex like in a biology class where everything is explained and then you think about how this works or what?

To the contrary, too much exposure to something leads to disliking it. I worked at a movie theater for 2 years. I hate popcorn and hot dogs.

Okay but I don't know if that applies to everything equally.

Does the Bible demand that you never think of anything sexual? Ever? All thoughts about sex are off limits? Prove it.

I can't really prove it. I only go by what I have heard and I also don't know what kinds of thoughts you think are allowed and which ones aren't. When I talk about sexual thoughts which I might get then I am talking about either:

a) imagining sex with someone I know
b) or someone I imagine
c) or simply sexual acts without really defining who that other person is like when you MB and then you think about inserting your sexual organs in the sexual organs of a woman without defining who this women is but you simply think about this "process".

What of these things would not be a sin?

No, but you imagine that YOU are the one having sex with her, not the other porn star.

So porn is only a sin if you imagine having sex with this person? But what if one could watch porn without imagining having sex with any of them? Then what else would make it sinful?

A kid's sitting through sex ed. He's thinking, oh, okay, so the ovaries produce ovum which are by their nature resistant to sperm, and an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] that guys get has special fluids that protect the sperm produced by the testicles and the two meeting is called sex and THAT is what makes babies. I get it now.

That's thinking about sex. Is this wrong? Of course not. No one in their right mind would call this improper behavior or improper thinking.

Wow, so that is what you are talking about!? When I say sexual thoughts then I of course mean thinking about doing sexual things! Now I'm really sobered to see that when you say thinking about sex you mean such kinds of things.
But what in the world does thinking about ovaries and insemination and stuff like that have to do with my real life examples????
When you see a totally hot woman and you're totally turned on by it then do you really think about ovaries and how babies are made and how many chromosomes a human has? That's totally unrealistic.

 

[ghendricks63]

I can't really imagine what you mean why don't you give clear examples this way it'll be much easier. Let's say you see a totally hot woman in the mall and this makes you feel a desire for her because she looks so unbelievably good and everything is so well shaped that it's already upsetting then what exactly would be allowed in your opinion and what would not be allowed? You say thinking about sex is okay but not thinking about sex with people. Then how does this help if you're turned on by a real person?
I don't know what you mean with thinking about sex. Are you talking about thinking about sex like in a biology class where everything is explained and then you think about how this works or what?

Okay but I don't know if that applies to everything equally.

I can't really prove it. I only go by what I have heard and I also don't know what kinds of thoughts you think are allowed and which ones aren't. When I talk about sexual thoughts which I might get then I am talking about either:

a) imagining sex with someone I know
b) or someone I imagine
c) or simply sexual acts without really defining who that other person is like when you MB and then you think about inserting your sexual organs in the sexual organs of a woman without defining who this women is but you simply think about this "process".

What of these things would not be a sin?

So porn is only a sin if you imagine having sex with this person? But what if one could watch porn without imagining having sex with any of them? Then what else would make it sinful?

Wow, so that is what you are talking about!? When I say sexual thoughts then I of course mean thinking about doing sexual things! Now I'm really sobered to see that when you say thinking about sex you mean such kinds of things.
But what in the world does thinking about ovaries and insemination and stuff like that have to do with my real life examples????
When you see a totally hot woman and you're totally turned on by it then do you really think about ovaries and how babies are made and how many chromosomes a human has? That's totally unrealistic.

I am still saddened by the insistance in calling something so beautiful as sex sin. To think about sex and desire it is not sinful because God created us this way. Sexual thoughts are not Lust...stop placing yourself in this man made bondage.

 

[Zebra1552]

I can't really imagine what you mean why don't you give clear examples this way it'll be much easier.

I'm using plain and simple English to explain simple ideas, examples should not be needed.

Let's say you see a totally hot woman in the mall and this makes you feel a desire for her because she looks so unbelievably good and everything is so well shaped that it's already upsetting then what exactly would be allowed in your opinion and what would not be allowed?

Well, you wouldn't walk up to her and strike up a conversation or follow her around, you'd walk away. I don't understand why you're asking me to define your morality for you.

You say thinking about sex is okay but not thinking about sex with people. Then how does this help if you're turned on by a real person?

I'm not going to solve your problems for you, and I'm not going to give you the answers. This is a gray area in Scripture: we are told not to lust, and we are told other things that play a part in how we should think and act in this area. Each person struggles with lust differently. Asking me what will help you isn't going to do you any good.

I don't know what you mean with thinking about sex. Are you talking about thinking about sex like in a biology class where everything is explained and then you think about how this works or what?

I'm talking about thinking about the subject of sex. This is the generally understood meaning of 'thinking about sex'. If I were to say 'thinking about golf' you would think about the game itself, the rules, the styles, and the different clubs involved. You might think about playing it. If I were to say 'thinking about computers' you would think about how they make our lives easier, the different components of a computer, and maybe- if you knew a lot about them- you would think about what it would take to build a computer. You wouldn't start thinking about the millions of different people who play golf or the billions of uses a computer has.

Okay but I don't know if that applies to everything equally.

For most people, it does. A serial killer starts with one victim. Then two. Soon, it's not enough to just kill them. They have to do more. A rapist, same thing. Child abuse, same. Too much exposure leads to one of two things happening, maybe both at the same time: You begin to hate that something, and you begin to need more of that something to be satisfied.

I can't really prove it. I only go by what I have heard and I also don't know what kinds of thoughts you think are allowed and which ones aren't.

You're relying on what you hear from other people to determine what is right or wrong with your thinking? This is doomed to failure. If you're going to just rely on what you hear rather than actively seeking the truth, then I'm wasting my time here.

When I talk about sexual thoughts which I might get then I am talking about either:

a) imagining sex with someone I know
b) or someone I imagine
c) or simply sexual acts without really defining who that other person is like when you MB and then you think about inserting your sexual organs in the sexual organs of a woman without defining who this women is but you simply think about this "process".

What of these things would not be a sin?

If I say C isn't wrong, you'll answer with 'but I heard...' and my answer will be useless. If I say it is right, you'll [hopefully] ask me how I know that. If I say B is right, same thing. Same with A. What motivation, then, do I have to answer your question?

So porn is only a sin if you imagine having sex with this person? But what if one could watch porn without imagining having sex with any of them? Then what else would make it sinful?

Did you read what I wrote earlier?

Porn always involves wanting to do something about it and you express this desire by viewing images that uncover another's nudity at best- which in the OT is condemned- and at worst treat other human beings as objects with which you pleasure yourself rather than people created in the image of God.

I wrote a 52-word sentence and you only payed attention to 9 of those 52 words, and then ask me 'what else would make porn sinful' and 'so porn is only a sin if you imagine having sex with that person'? Why on earth would I answer your questions again when you glossed over my first answer?

Wow, so that is what you are talking about!? When I say sexual thoughts then I of course mean thinking about doing sexual things! Now I'm really sobered to see that when you say thinking about sex you mean such kinds of things.

It's a pretty basic understanding of the English language, I admit, but you haven't really given me much to go by. When people say 'thinking about sex' they usually mean 'thinking about sex'.

But what in the world does thinking about ovaries and insemination and stuff like that have to do with my real life examples????

What do your real life examples have to do with you researching and figuring out the answer to your own questions?

When you see a totally hot woman and you're totally turned on by it then do you really think about ovaries and how babies are made and how many chromosomes a human has? That's totally unrealistic.

When I see a totally hot woman and I'm turned on by it, I certainly don't think about her the rest of the day. And no, I don't think about ovaries and testicles. You used the phrase 'thinking about sex' numerous times without any indication of what you meant, and then question the morality of it. What else am I to think? That you're a pervert who dreams of having sex with women all the time? My mind doesn't just jump to that conclusion. Why should it?

You want me to talk about what I think is right and wrong, what I think about the boundaries of personal freedom and the line between that and sin, and then you want to use that boundary for your own spiritual life, forget it. I'm not ever going to give anyone the answers for what is right or wrong in areas of gray in the Bible. It doesn't help me, it doesn't help them, and it can easily lead to strife. I will help you find resources and give you ideas to help you, and that is all. I or anyone else do not have the authority to tell you what is and isn't sinful for you in this area except to tell you that porn and sleeping around are off limits.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Jaws13,

Hasty generalization. Not all unbelievers do this.

Ah yes ok, but the point Jim Bob has made is that believers seek not to do this whereas unbelievers generally see nothimg wrong with it.

Atheists can't imagine a loving God who requires an eternal punishment for any sin.

That is why they are atheists, the Biblical testimont shows God doesnt wish that for anyone, but all come to repentance. The atheist position has a problem with the idea that it can sin.

Imagining having sex with people isn't the same as thinking about sex. Looking after beautiful women isn't the same as imagining having sex with people.

It isnt the same but as the NT explains, it is still sin.

God looks at the heart, the law judged the acts, the heart that repents is forgiven through Christ, so the thoughts and attitudes of the heart are crucial.

 

[Thomas222]

Passion begets reasons - Reason is greater than passion. yes you can -if it is reasonable to stop.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Disciples of Christ live by the Spirit, often not reason as the beginning of knowledge is the word of God and the Kingdom of God is not of this world.

 

[Zebra1552]

Jaws13,
Ah yes ok, but the point Jim Bob has made is that believers seek not to do this whereas unbelievers generally see nothimg wrong with it.

So it's appeal to popularity, then, combined with hasty generalization. Great.

That is why they are atheists, the Biblical testimont shows God doesnt wish that for anyone, but all come to repentance. The atheist position has a problem with the idea that it can sin.

No, it has a problem with the idea that an all-knowing, all-powerful God is calling the shots. Thus A-theism.

It isnt the same but as the NT explains, it is still sin.

Where? Show me.

God looks at the heart, the law judged the acts, the heart that repents is forgiven through Christ, so the thoughts and attitudes of the heart are crucial.

This does not mean that all thoughts of a sexual nature are wrong, or that sex is bad, or that we must refrain from sexual stimulation outside of marriage. You've got a hard position to argue, I hope you're up to it.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Jaws13,

So it's appeal to popularity, then, combined with hasty generalization. Great.

Er, no, that’s perhaps your idea. The point Jim Bob made was believers seek not to do this whereas unbelievers generally see nothing wrong with it, and I agree with Jim Bob.

No, it has a problem with the idea that an all-knowing, all-powerful God is calling the shots. Thus A-theism.

As well yes, but the atheist position does have a problem with it being sin.

Where? Show me.

Are you seriously asking to be shown passages in the NT that describe sin?

This does not mean that all thoughts of a sexual nature are wrong, or that sex is bad, or that we must refrain from sexual stimulation outside of marriage. You've got a hard position to argue, I hope you're up to it.

The Bible speaks for itself, nothing to do with me.
Not all thoughts of a sexual nature are described as wrong in the Bible. Yes the Bible says sex is for a faithful man/woman marriage and thus sexual stimulation outside of that isnt focused on God but on sexual stimulation.

 

[Zebra1552]

Jaws13,
Er, no, that’s perhaps your idea. The point Jim Bob made was believers seek not to do this whereas unbelievers generally see nothing wrong with it, and I agree with Jim Bob.

No, actually, it isn't. It's an attempt to show that something is sinful by going by what the majority thinks rather than the evidence. This is a logical fallacy.

As well yes, but the atheist position does have a problem with it being sin.

Because they don't believe God exists. You can't believe that God made a distinction between sin and not sin while also believing God doesn't exist.

Are you seriously asking to be shown passages in the NT that describe sin?

Are you seriously unable or unwilling to provide these verses? This is a discussion. Usually when someone makes a claim it needs to be backed with evidence to be valid.

The Bible speaks for itself, nothing to do with me.

You still interpret it, so yes, it does have something to do with you. Trying to deny it to say you know for a fact what the Bible says is ridiculously arrogant, and I strongly dislike it when people attempt to manipulate a discussion that way. Regardless of what the Bible says, it still requires interpretation so the claim that it has nothing to do with you is totally false.

Not all thoughts of a sexual nature are described as wrong in the Bible. Yes the Bible says sex is for a faithful man/woman marriage and thus sexual stimulation outside of that isnt focused on God but on sexual stimulation.

So you know for a fact that every single time someone masturbates they're focused on the stimulation and not on relieving built up tension. You're somehow able to read people's minds to know exactly why they do things.

The Bible never says that sex is for a faithful man/woman marriage, it just condemns sexual behavior with others outside of being married to that other person- in context a woman, so it's speaking to guys. There is a huge difference between that and saying that all sexual stimulation must happen within a heterosexual marriage relationship. I know my Bible. Do you?

 

[brightmorningstar]

Jaws13,

No, actually, it isn't. It's an attempt to show that something is sinful by going by what the majority thinks rather than the evidence. This is a logical fallacy.

No, it refers to what the Biblical testimony of God says is sin, not as you claim, any human majority.

Because they don't believe God exists. You can't believe that God made a distinction between sin and not sin while also believing God doesn't exist.

No. regardless of God, atheists do not see any problem with the acts.

Are you seriously unable or unwilling to provide these verses?

Yes they have been posted so often, Mark 7, Matthew 15, 1 Cor 6, Romans 1 etc.

You still interpret it, so yes, it does have something to do with you.

The Bible says what it says, you are free to comment on what it says if you wish, lest see whether you believe what it says.

Trying to deny it to say you know for a fact what the Bible says is ridiculously arrogant, and I strongly dislike it when people attempt to manipulate a discussion that way. Regardless of what the Bible says, it still requires interpretation so the claim that it has nothing to do with you is totally false.

I believe all believers know what the Bible says, that’s what makes them believers. Those who try and make out the Bible doesn’t say what it says are by definition disbelievers. I find it arrogant when people think they know better than what the Bible says.

So you know for a fact that every single time someone masturbates they're focused on the stimulation and not on relieving built up tension. You're somehow able to read people's minds to know exactly why they do things.

No, never said any of that.

The Bible never says that sex is for a faithful man/woman marriage,

Yes it does. Matt 19 and 1 Cor 7 for starters. Gen 2, Eph 5,

it just condemns sexual behavior with others outside of being married to that other person- in context a woman, so it's speaking to guys.

Nope, see 1 Cor 7 for starters, it doesn’t speak just to guys.

There is a huge difference between that and saying that all sexual stimulation must happen within a heterosexual marriage relationship. I know my Bible. Do you?

The Bible outlines God’s creation purpose of marriage of man and woman, Gen 2, Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5, don’t go into that gay sexuality stuff again.

 

[Zebra1552]

Jaws13,
No, it refers to what the Biblical testimony of God says is sin, not as you claim, any human majority.

Red herring. The claim was that Christians have a problem with it, not that the Bible says it is sin.

Yes they have been posted so often, Mark 7, Matthew 15, 1 Cor 6, Romans 1 etc.

Romans 1 has nothing to do with this discussion. Mark 7/Matthew 15 further illustrates my point that it is the intention that matters, not just the desire. So thank you for that.

Mar 7:18 He said to them, "Then do you also fail to understand? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile,
Mar 7:19 since it enters, not the heart but the stomach, and goes out into the sewer?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.)
Mar 7:20 And he said, "It is what comes out of a person that defiles.
Mar 7:21 For it is from within, from the human heart, that evil intentions come: fornication, theft, murder,
Mar 7:22 adultery, avarice, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, folly.

1 Corinthians 6 at most indicates that sex with a prostitute is wrong, and that sexual immorality is wrong- sexual immorality being that which the Bible forbids. It never forbids masturbation, or all sexual thought.

The Bible says what it says, you are free to comment on what it says if you wish, lest see whether you believe what it says.

That is wrong. The Bible requires interpretation, it doesn't say what it says without proper hermeneutics. When I tell you my interpretation, I'm not just telling you what I believe, I'm telling you what I've reasoned out through studying the Bible and studying the original language in which it was written. Your dismissal of that only serves to show me that you're not interested in discussion, you're interested in spouting your own dogma, believing it is right and everything else is wrong. I've said show me the evidence. Merely quoting the same old Bible verses at me isn't going to convince me of anything, and it doesn't establish evidence unless you show WHY those Bible verses say what you think they say.

I believe all believers know what the Bible says, that’s what makes them believers. Those who try and make out the Bible doesn’t say what it says are by definition disbelievers. I find it arrogant when people think they know better than what the Bible says.

You have no right to judge another's heart merely because they study the Bible where you rely on your own understanding to figure out what it says. You just dismissed the entire study of theology and in doing so show that you have no place discussing things in the theology forum. You would be in unorthodox theology, for orthodox theology recognizes the necessity of theology.

No, never said any of that.

You certainly implied it:

... sexual stimulation outside of that isnt focused on God but on sexual stimulation.

The only way you could possibly know this is if it said that somewhere in the Bible- and I know for a fact that it doesn't- or if you were a mind reader, and I know for a fact that you cannot be that either. Therefore your claim must be false.

Yes it does. Matt 19 and 1 Cor 7 for starters. Gen 2, Eph 5,

None of those verses either state or imply that sex is for a faithful man/woman relationship as you claimed. The first forbids divorce, the second only addresses how a man/woman marriage works. It does not state directly or implicitly, "Sex is for a man/woman marriage that is faithful." It forbids sex with others outside of being married.

Nope, see 1 Cor 7 for starters, it doesn’t speak just to guys.

For starters, it starts off talking only about men:

1Co 7:1 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: "It is well for a man not to touch a woman."
1Co 7:2 But because of cases of sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.

Then it goes on to talk about married people:
1Co 7:3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.

So yes, it's talking to guys.

The Bible outlines God’s creation purpose of marriage of man and woman, Gen 2, Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5, don’t go into that gay sexuality stuff again.

Straw man argument and a red herring. YOU brought that up, not me, and it is not part of this discussion. Drop it.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Jaws13,

Red herring. The claim was that Christians have a problem with it, not that the Bible says it is sin.

Christians do have a problem with sin, sin is against God’s purposes, the Holy Spirit convicts Christians of it, to test what sin, the Bible describes it… cant see what the problem is with that, pretty standard stuff.

Romans 1 has nothing to do with this discussion. Mark 7/Matthew 15 further illustrates my point that it is the intention that matters, not just the desire. So thank you for that.

On the topic of sin described of course Romans 1 has everything to do with it, and yes of course the intention that is crucial, but the intention to sin as described. You accept there is a difference between intending to do good and intending to sin?

That is wrong. The Bible requires interpretation, it doesn't say what it says without proper hermeneutics.

It says what it says, proper hermeneutics interpret it. Hermeneutics are no good if one has nothing to apply it to.

You have no right to judge another's heart merely because they study the Bible where you rely on your own understanding to figure out what it says. You just dismissed the entire study of theology and in doing so show that you have no place discussing things in the theology forum. You would be in unorthodox theology, for orthodox theology recognizes the necessity of theology.

As I said I believe all believers know what the Bible says. When you say ‘own understanding’ to figure out what it says, how does that work. If we can all read we can see what it says. Did you mean figure out what it means?

The only way you could possibly know this is if it said that somewhere in the Bible- and I know for a fact that it doesn't- or if you were a mind reader, and I know for a fact that you cannot be that either. Therefore your claim must be false.

On the contrary as sexual activity is only countenanced by Jesus NT teaching for within a man/woman marriage, sexual stimulation outside of that is not focussed on Jesus NT teaching.

None of those verses either state or imply that sex is for a faithful man/woman relationship as you claimed.

Well yes they do, and when you can come up with some NT scripture that specifically countenances any sex outside man/woman marriage we can discuss it.

For starters, it starts off talking only about men:

For starters who said it didn’t? For starters it refers to men and continues with the woman, so it doesn’t just address for guys as you incorrectly claimed.

Then it goes on to talk about married people:

So who did you mean by guys, the wife?

Straw man argument and a red herring. YOU brought that up, not me, and it is not part of this discussion. Drop it.

The Bible does mention heterosexuality or such a concept, so drop it.

 

[Zebra1552]

Jaws13,
Christians do have a problem with sin, sin is against God’s purposes, the Holy Spirit convicts Christians of it, to test what sin, the Bible describes it… cant see what the problem is with that, pretty standard stuff.

The problem is that just because a Christian has a problem with it doesn't make it a sin. In order for it to be sin, it must be in the Bible. Therefore the fact that Christians have a problem with something is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

On the topic of sin described of course Romans 1 has everything to do with it, and yes of course the intention that is crucial, but the intention to sin as described. You accept there is a difference between intending to do good and intending to sin?

Red herring. Off topic. Romans 1 has nothing to do with lust as this topic addresses it. Drop it, or show where in Romans 1 you're referring to and show that it is on topic.

It says what it says, proper hermeneutics interpret it. Hermeneutics are no good if one has nothing to apply it to.
As I said I believe all believers know what the Bible says. When you say ‘own understanding’ to figure out what it says, how does that work. If we can all read we can see what it says. Did you mean figure out what it means?

Repeating the same claim that I already rebutted doesn't make the claim any more valid.

On the contrary as sexual activity is only countenanced by Jesus NT teaching for within a man/woman marriage, sexual stimulation outside of that is not focussed on Jesus NT teaching.

Repeating the same claim that I already rebutted doesn't make the claim any more valid.

Well yes they do, and when you can come up with some NT scripture that specifically countenances any sex outside man/woman marriage we can discuss it.

Burden shifting will not support your point either.

For starters who said it didn’t? For starters it refers to men and continues with the woman, so it doesn’t just address for guys as you incorrectly claimed.

You said it didn't:

Nope, see 1 Cor 7 for starters, it doesn’t speak just to guys.

It does address just guys in the section referring to lust and sexual immorality, and then it goes on to talk about married folk- which has nothing to do with this conversation. When you cite an entire chapter, you leave it to me to find which part you are talking about. If you can't narrow it down, I'll do it for you. If you have a problem with that, then narrow it down yourself to begin with rather than leaving it to me.

So who did you mean by guys, the wife?

Guys, men, boys, those of the male sex. I mean males, not females. Ripping my post apart and then addressing something out of context to make it seem like I said something I didn't is rude. Stop.

The Bible does mention heterosexuality or such a concept, so drop it.

And you bring it up again. What, do you have to get the last word in or something? You brought it up, it is off topic to this thread. Leave it alone. Telling me to drop something you brought up after I told you to drop it is ridiculously disrespectful and dishonest.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Jaws13,

The problem is that just because a Christian has a problem with it doesn't make it a sin. In order for it to be sin, it must be in the Bible.

Which is what was being said all along and what I said. hmmn.

Therefore the fact that Christians have a problem with something is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

Of course not, Christians believe the Biblical testimony so if it’s described as a sin in the Bible, Christians seek to avoid it.

Red herring. Off topic. Romans 1 has nothing to do with lust as this topic addresses it. Drop it, or show where in Romans 1 you're referring to and show that it is on topic.

Romans 1 describes sin so it is relevant. I see no reason to object to Romans 1 as opposed to other passages which describe sin unless there is a sin in Romans 1 not in Matt 10 and Mark 7, that you don’t like the idea of. The point of the question was sinful acts are still bad, but they come from sinful thoughts and desires.

Repeating the same claim that I already rebutted doesn't make the claim any more valid.

I agree it is as valid as the first time it was posted, your response to it is irrelevant, that’s what the Bible says and what the Christian churches hold to. Repeating your denial of it doesn’t change the truth of Jesus Christ.

Burden shifting will not support your point either.

It does to me so that’s ok with me. If you want to debate you need to come up with some scripture otherwise your argument is baseless.

It does address just guys in the section referring to lust and sexual immorality, and then it goes on to talk about married folk- which has nothing to do with this conversation.

Rubbish, “ 1 Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband

And you bring it up again.

The Bible doesn’t mention it or have any such concept, it was you who mentioned it.