Lust: Is it possible to control all your thoughts?

[Armistead14]

Once again it should not be necessary to remind you of this but I will repeat it. We are talking about lust as used and understood in greek in the 1st century and it's hebrew sources in the centuries before that...not english in the 21st century.

I can see you have experience in debating this person based on english, opinion and today's culture....

I'm bowing out....and leaving it to you.

 

[Jim Bob]

I don't know if the argument that puberty causes people to be attracted to each other and to think about sex and that since God created puberty then this means that everything people do after puberty is okay is really that convincing. I mean we are fallen beings. Nobody of us knows how puberty would have been like in a perfect world. What if the people would have had no lustful thoughts for the other sex at all and simply married one day but never had any thoughts about having sex with hot female classmates and stuff like that?

But on the other hand I heard even babies touch and play with themselves, does this mean that babies are also sinning by doing that? What if this shows that it's simply normal and trying to resist it which I don't think is possible on a continual basis cannot work? I think all those threads on christian forums from young people trying to overcome masturbation and then not making it is depressing. If it really is that bad then why can't one pray to God and then he makes you become like a child again and then the whole stuggle ends? If it's sin why does there have to be this continuing struggle with guilt and condemnation because sooner or later you still do it again and then feel like dirt? That's what upsets me.

 

[Zebra1552]

I don't know if the argument that puberty causes people to be attracted to each other and to think about sex and that since God created puberty then this means that everything people do after puberty is okay is really that convincing.

That isn't the argument. The argument is that it is a gray area. The Bible condemns coveting someone else sexually. What does this mean? It doesn't mean normal, healthy, sexual desire that comes naturally. It means craving someone else and wanting to take them. That is what lust is. It's far beyond ordinary, fleeting desire.

I mean we are fallen beings. Nobody of us knows how puberty would have been like in a perfect world. What if the people would have had no lustful thoughts for the other sex at all and simply married one day but never had any thoughts about having sex with hot female classmates and stuff like that?

The there would be no humans. Without healthy sexual desire- that which you and well-meaning Christians call lust without just cause- you would not be here. Without sexual desire, there is no sex.

But on the other hand I heard even babies touch and play with themselves, does this mean that babies are also sinning by doing that?

Of course not.

What if this shows that it's simply normal and trying to resist it which I don't think is possible on a continual basis cannot work? I think all those threads on christian forums from young people trying to overcome masturbation and then not making it is depressing.

Masturbation isn't condemned anywhere in the Bible.

If it really is that bad then why can't one pray to God and then he makes you become like a child again and then the whole stuggle ends? If it's sin why does there have to be this continuing struggle with guilt and condemnation because sooner or later you still do it again and then feel like dirt? That's what upsets me.

The guilt isn't created by God. It's created by people who think sex is a dirty thing. Sex and along with it sexual desire is created by God and helps us connect with ourselves and with others, in the right contexts. I once thought that to 'not lust' I had to refrain from any and all fantasies. No masturbation. It's harmful to think that way, and as you've already seen, it's depressing. There is no reason that God would allow us to have these desires unless they're normal and healthy. The problem comes when we obsess over it and it goes overboard into doing things we shouldn't.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Jaws13,

Desire comes before or during thought, and Jesus is condemning the desire, not the thought, and specifying what the desire is. It cannot, therefore, be thought lest a husband be lusting after his wife.

Ah I think I see what you are saying, though I think you may be splitting hairs. So if one’s desire is not to look lustfully but ones happens to see someone, the thoughts come. So its temptation?

I think you need to clarify

There is no reason that God would allow us to have these desires unless they're normal and healthy.

Sexual desires apart from the man/woman faithful union God created us for are not normal and healthy or what God allows us to have. They come from the knowledge of good and evil.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Col 3:5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

This passage does list lust as distinct from sexual immorality, but of course evil desires and lust can be for sexual immorality.

 

[dayhiker]

Jim Bob, I agree with your commment "young people trying to overcome masturbation and then not making it is depressing."But I also think that this effects young people even more. I've meet people that love God and were following him then they learned masturbation was a "sin." So since God has helped them with many others things and God will surely deliver them from sin they pray ... but then the temptation to be sexual and touch is still there. more prayer, vows etc and still they fall to masturbation. The guilt then drives some from following Christ any more. I personally think its the 1st reason teens that teens find to stop following Christ. They conclude if God can't deliver me from sin He must not be real.

 

[ghendricks63]

I can see you have experience in debating this person based on english, opinion and today's culture....

I'm bowing out....and leaving it to you.

LOL - Unfortunately with this one I have never found a willingness to have an objective discussion on any opinion but his own. In fact I end up refusing to speak to him for a while simply to clear my head of the insanity.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Regarding the OP agian, of course the NT says flee from sexual immorality, and if your eye cause you to sin, pluck it out.
As I said when we focus on Christ and His teaching and looking to serve Him our eyes are not on ourselves and what gratifies us, cast our eyes on half naked women and it can take our eyes off Christ.

 

[Zebra1552]

Jaws13,

Ah I think I see what you are saying, though I think you may be splitting hairs.

I don't split hairs unless it is important to do so.

So if one’s desire is not to look lustfully but ones happens to see someone, the thoughts come. So its temptation?

No.

I think you need to clarify

I've clarified to Jim as much as I feel like right now, and my post was to him, not to you.

Sexual desires apart from the man/woman faithful union God created us for are not normal and healthy or what God allows us to have. They come from the knowledge of good and evil. [/color]

That is off topic. We're talking about lust, not sexuality. Drop it. Last warning.

 

[Jazer]

Where is the freedom or the cure?!

In the Blood of Jesus, we have to be washed and cleansed in the Blood, so our garment (flesh) is pure and clean before Him. We can not be double minded we have to be fully convinced that we have to live pure and clean before God. I use to have dreams or be tempted in my sleep. I did not think I could control that. But I can put it under the Blood. God can do a work so even when I am asleep I can be holy and sanctified. One pastor use to say put your hands on your pillow and pray the Blood of Jesus before you go to sleep. That seems to work for me.

 

[Jazer]

puberty causes people to be attracted to each other

We are not to act like natural brute beasts, but as Children of God. "But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption"

11 Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul, 12 having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation.

 

[Armistead14]

That isn't the argument. The argument is that it is a gray area. The Bible condemns coveting someone else sexually. What does this mean? It doesn't mean normal, healthy, sexual desire that comes naturally. It means craving someone else and wanting to take them. That is what lust is. It's far beyond ordinary, fleeting desire.


The there would be no humans. Without healthy sexual desire- that which you and well-meaning Christians call lust without just cause- you would not be here. Without sexual desire, there is no sex.

Of course not.


Masturbation isn't condemned anywhere in the Bible.


The guilt isn't created by God. It's created by people who think sex is a dirty thing. Sex and along with it sexual desire is created by God and helps us connect with ourselves and with others, in the right contexts. I once thought that to 'not lust' I had to refrain from any and all fantasies. No masturbation. It's harmful to think that way, and as you've already seen, it's depressing. There is no reason that God would allow us to have these desires unless they're normal and healthy. The problem comes when we obsess over it and it goes overboard into doing things we shouldn't.

Great post...

It amazes people think sexual thought stemmed from puberty is sinful. Sexual thoughts, desires and arousal stem from God designed puberty. Children do touch, but it's asexual, it just feels good to rub body parts. No normal parent would punish a child for doing so. Then puberty comes along about age 12 and it's medical fact the hormonal process from it connects to our body parts.

The same hormonal desire exist for eating. When we're hungry our brains tell us to eat. We can eat naturally or gorge ourselves into obesehood, but because we could overeat and and destroy our bodies, doe's that mean we don't eat at all?...how silly. We eat normally seeking natural healthy bodies.

What happens when we don't eat when hungry...we spend all our time thinking about eating. The same is with sex, if we ignore our natural sexuality, it becomes even more controlling. The fundy sexual doctrines
regarding sexuality have actually caused more sexual sin, more sexual dysfunction because they pervert that which is nomal. When you take that which is normal and call it sin you drive it into a closet where it usually turns into worse and darker sinful behavior. I have no doubt it was the church that caused most sexual dysfunction in America.

God gave our body many hormonal needs processes, forcing us to act on them out or die, food and sex are basically the same, we need both for the human race to exist.

Sure, we can overdo food or sex, but do you tell a hungry person he can never eat...no, and you can no more tell a person after puberty to not have sexual desires. What people are really saying is God created sin by creating puberty. My God doesn't do such.

It's pure man made doctrine to tell someone after puberty not to have sexual thoughts or desires, God connected our bodies to our brains. Without sexual thought or desires we would never seek to marry or mate. The silly doctrine of remaining asexual after puberty is not only unscriptual, it's silly and humanly impossible because God made it that way. The reason no one can defeat sexuality is because God made it to where it can't be defeated.

Sexuality doesn't somehow happen after a marriage vow. In many cultures one of the most glorious aspects of marriage was the fact that you could now act on your sexual thoughts and desires with a physical mate, marriage beds were prepared, etc... How many of us married with no sexual desires or thoughts before? I didn't marry my wife because she made good apple pie or that she was a good person. I have male friends that are good humans and can cook.

Sadly because of political connections, many man made doctrines were made up misusing biblical culture and greek words to suit our need to control our fellow man. Paul and the Apostles often spoke directly to cultures regarding sexual sin, as in Corinth where almost all sex was connected to pagan worship. We then use those verses and try to apply them to normal sexuality, it doesn't work, doesn't even make sense.

The christain church in it's selfish man-made doctrines to make sexuality sinful has done more harm than good. How better to teach sexuality as a normal process with normal thoughts and desires, but to be controlled to the point that we do no harm with them. For sure youth would have something they could work with.

Now, sincere christian youth are just told stop, it's sin, don't think sex, don't MB and they ALL fail. Sure, it's a lil better than times past, you don't have to worry about a priest torturing you if you're caught MB today as they did back them.

If people have normal hormonal processes and 90% do they will have amounts of sexual desire, fantasy, etc., before and after marriage.

To teach sexuality is sin, MB, etc, it only leads to is endless cycles of guilt, depression and constant repenting until most just say they can't live the christian life and give up. The church has pushed away untold numbers of youth from God, how ashamed they should be for corrupting Gods natural creation.

 

[brightmorningstar]

The point is sexuality isnt a concept found in the Bible, it is however a cultural concept many use to interpret the Bible, which is eisegesis and bad hermeneutics.

Take for example the statements

What does this mean? It doesn't mean normal, healthy, sexual desire that comes naturally.

and

Sexual thoughts, desires and arousal stem from God designed puberty

To the first, yes it does. The NT spends plenty of verses describing the desires of the world, which come naturally in Adam, and those of the Spirit, it is a choice for us which to be slaves to. The only countenance of sexual activity and thought is faithful man woman marriage, so sexual desires that come naturally in our worldy fallen and sinful state includes stuff outside that as well, be it adultery, homosexuality, bestiality, paedophiia etc. The liberal thinking behind the statement is founded on a faulty basis and uses other cultural thinking to justify itself.
But its is profoundly and fundamentally different, and thus the great subsequent discourse is a confusion to the fundamnetal issue.
The second comment is the same, it implies all sexual desires are God given which is a concept the Bible doesnt support.

 

[ghendricks63]

The point is sexuality isnt a concept found in the Bible, ...

The only countenance of sexual activity and thought is faithful man woman marriage,

Your first comment defies reason completely.

Your second comment reveals a tremendous willingness to disregard much in scripture that you find distasteful.

 

[brightmorningstar]

ghendricks63,

Your first comment defies reason completely.

On the contrary, the scriptures shown describe God's creation purpose for man and woman in faithful marriage and all outside that sexual immorality, sexuality is a concept of oreientation, it doesnt exist in the Bible. If you think it does sow where any other orientation is countenanced.

Your second comment reveals a tremendous willingness to disregard much in scripture that you find distasteful.

Which just supports the idea that you dont have any scripture to support your position or you would have cited or quoted some that countenances sexual activity and thought outside faithful man woman marriage.

 

[ghendricks63]

ghendricks63,
On the contrary, the scriptures shown describe God's creation purpose for man and woman in faithful marriage and all outside that sexual immorality, sexuality is a concept of oreientation, it doesnt exist in the Bible. If you think it does sow where any other orientation is countenanced.

Which just supports the idea that you dont have any scripture to support your position or you would have cited or quoted some that countenances sexual activity and thought outside faithful man woman marriage.

You did not say sexual orientation...you said sexuality.

As for your silly claim that I don't have any scripture...get real. You have been provided scripture many many times by me and several others. You don't care about scripture so I have stopped taking the time with you. All you have ever done is turn a blind eye to it and then falsely say it doesn't exist. There is no integrity in that type of discussion.

 

[brightmorningstar]

ghendricks63,

You did not say sexual orientation...you said sexuality.

You used the word sexuality and havent shown where the concept exists in the Bible, which was the question put to you.

 

[brightmorningstar]

roses are red, violets are blue,
what does sexuality mean to you?

 

[ghendricks63]

ghendricks63,
You used the word sexuality and havent shown where the concept exists in the Bible, which was the question put to you.

You know that to be a false statement even as you type it. I have shown you MANY times. I simply refuse to waste more effort with you when you will not be honest in your responses.

 

[brightmorningstar]

ghendricks63,

You know that to be a false statement even as you type it. I have shown you MANY times. I simply refuse to waste more effort with you when you will not be honest in your responses.

Still no scriptures, I think we can dismiss your claim and unfounded.