Luke 13

[NatalieJan777]

THE DEPTHS OF SATAN--teaches that what God does mostly, is HATE! He is a God of eternal hatred and vengeance. He is pictured as the chief of Hypocrites. He tells mankind of love their enemies, but shows his perverted love toward mankind by torturing most of our loved ones in fire for all eternity. God's wish of saving all humanity is thwarted by the sovereign power of man's supposed free will, and thus most of the human race will eternally hate and despise and curse their creator for ever making them. This teaching of satan has absoultely no redeeming value to it. God will be remembered eternally for being the greatest failure in the history of the universe. This doctrine is both the most evil and the most stupid teaching ever taught.


THE DEPTHS OF GOD--teaches that what God does and is, is LOVE! He is a God fully capable of bringing the whole human race to repentance through judgements and cuase man to learn righteousness. The purpose for man's creation is to teach him obedience and love, so that he can be molded into the very image of God himself and be manifested as the Eternal Sons and Daughters of God in the family of God. God's plan brings unspeakable happiness and pleasure to every creature in heaven and earth. God's plan will be totally successful down to God's very last wish. The church teaches the DEAPTHS OF SATAN NOT THE DEPTHS OF GOD and they accuse those who do teach the DEPTHS OF GOD are false prophets and of the devil.


1. Where do we find them who say they are the apostles and are not?? the church....rev.2:2


2. where do we find them who have left their first love...in the church.rev 2:4


3.wehre do we find them that say they are jews and are not, but are synagogue of Satan....in the church.rev 2:9 and 3:9


4. Where do we find satan's seat and where satan dwells...in the church. rev 2.13


5. Where do we find the doctrine of Balaam? in the church. rev 2:14


6. Where do we find them that hold the doctrine of the nicolaitans that Jesus HATED? in the church.rev 2:15


7. Where do we find that woman Jezebel, that calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce servants to commit fornication. in the church. rev 2:19


8. Where do we find the depths of satan. In the church rev.2:24


9. where do we find them that are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked. in the church.rev 3:17


There is no greater evil taught in the church today than that of the doctrine of eternal torment. There is nothing that can be taught by the mind of man or demon that is more deplorable, detestable and disgusting than the thought of being physically, mentally, and spiritually tortured for all eternity. The thought of eternal torture is far beyond all evil, immoral, corrupt, damnable, deprived, heinous,hideous, loathsome, nefarious, obscene, repugnant, vile and wicked sins of all the universe combined. The very thought, the teaching, and the doctrine, of eternal torment is the greatest evil than can ever be conceived. any human who would torture others are considered the lowest form of humanity. the chruches teach of a torture by fire in hell never ever coming to an end and they call it FAIR and JUSTICE. ETERNAL TORTURE IS NOT FAIR OR JUSTICE. But it is the depths of satan. It is INORDINATELY EVIL, IT IS THE ULTIMATE SIN AND IT IS BLASPHEMY OF ALL BLASPHEMIES. IT IS A DOCTRINE THAT DEMEANS THE VERY CHARACTER OF GOD. this doctrine of eternal torture says that God is evil and unjust beyond any sane comprehension. This doctrine says that God, who saved the worlds worst sinner that ever lived, in a flash of light, cannot save most sinners. This doctrine says God is more evil then he is loving. This doctrine makes God out to be less caring and merciful and the worst of sinners. This doctrine contradicts hundreds of scriptures. This doctrine makes God out to be a hypocrite when he tells us to love our enemies, but does not follow his own teaching.


Will the same God who says to us, love your enemies, be the one that will torutre our friends, neighbors and loved ones? Is this the reward we get for loving our enemies?? God will torture our loved ones? This is double talking, unscriptural nonsense. God wants us to love our loved ones and love our enemies, because we are growing into HIS IMAGE. You cannot show your love to your enemies by torturing them, and NEITHER CAN GOD.


On the DEPTHS OF GOD so little is taught in the churches. The doctrines that are scriptural, such as the fact that Jesus is the Savior of the whole world, and that GOD will save the whole world, and all that GOD has created is here for the purpose of training humanity to become sons and daughters of God, in the image of God.... are not taught in the churches and should be taught but instead they teach the depths of satan.

What I find interesting here is your condemnation of the Church. Do you not know that CHRIST is the head of it all and it is HIS CHURCH?

Where do we find the Lake of Fire? In the bible it speaks of it Revelation 20. The bible is GOD's word, those who wish not to believe what GOD's word says will be judged in the end by that very same word. It is not wrong to preach TRUTH (God's word) and to warn those who go against the WILL of GOD.

 

[heavensprings]

What I find interesting here is your condemnation of the Church. Do you not know that CHRIST is the head of it all and it is HIS CHURCH?

Where do we find the Lake of Fire? In the bible it speaks of it Revelation 20. The bible is GOD's word, those who wish not to believe what GOD's word says will be judged in the end by that very same word. It is not wrong to preach TRUTH (God's word) and to warn those who go against the WILL of GOD.

Hope you don't mind if I jump in for a bit.

Did you not notice where the enemy is within the verses quoted? The enemy is within the Institutional Church. This Church is NOT the True Church.

The True Church has also been hidden within the outward Church system, and God has been calling forth many of the True church to come out...

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

If God is calling you out of the Institutional Church then you very well ought to obey... amen?

Christ did not institute an institutional Church but a fluid entity with LIFE. He did not set up man made rules and regulations. Man did.

Have you ever done a study on the Lake of Fire?... from Genesis to Revelation. Have you done a study on 'fire' and what it symbolizes?

 

[timlamb]

Hope you don't mind if I jump in for a bit.

Did you not notice where the enemy is within the verses quoted? The enemy is within the Institutional Church. This Church is NOT the True Church.

The True Church has also been hidden within the outward Church system, and God has been calling forth many of the True church to come out...

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

If God is calling you out of the Institutional Church then you very well ought to obey... amen?

Christ did not institute an institutional Church but a fluid entity with LIFE. He did not set up man made rules and regulations. Man did.

Have you ever done a study on the Lake of Fire?... from Genesis to Revelation. Have you done a study on 'fire' and what it symbolizes?

First of all, read Revelation chapters 2 and 3. the seven churches, though some are doing everything wrong, Jesus does not judge them at this point, He tells them to change. If you notice the end of chapter one He states clearly the seven lamppstands are the seven churches. We find those weven lamps in Heaven in chapter four, the last mention of the church because the church has been raptured.

the term "My People" as coming from God always refers to Israel first and then all believers allegorically sometimes. But in the book of Revelation "my people" is Israel. the church is not mentioned again in Revelation until the Lord's return and we ride in with him.

 

[heavensprings]

First of all, read Revelation chapters 2 and 3. the seven churches, though some are doing everything wrong, Jesus does not judge them at this point, He tells them to change. If you notice the end of chapter one He states clearly the seven lamppstands are the seven churches. We find those weven lamps in Heaven in chapter four, the last mention of the church because the church has been raptured.

the term "My People" as coming from God always refers to Israel first and then all believers allegorically sometimes. But in the book of Revelation "my people" is Israel. the church is not mentioned again in Revelation until the Lord's return and we ride in with him.

Regardless of the seven churches being in Revelation 2 and 3, Christ still shows WHERE the seat of satan and the depths of satan are situated. This is what is being discussed. Do you not believe what the verses say? He gave warning, and to this day it has not changed. The depths of satan has so overtaken the Church to this day and one of the results is she became an 'Institution' set up by man. He has already given direction to the True Church... to come out of the harlot.

I do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. That is what you've been taught and listened to by the Institutional Church. I see the Church.. the real Church, not the Institutional Church, as being Israel. (Eph 2:12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.) The Institutional Church is the harlot of Babylon and we are told to come out of her. Christ did not set up an institution.

This is not Christian Universalism...there are hundreds upon hundreds of thousands, if not millions, from all over the world who have left the Institutional Church at God's direction. And when they do, they are free from man's teachings to hear the anointing within..

1Jn 2:26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you.
1Jn 2:27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

 

[NatalieJan777]

Hope you don't mind if I jump in for a bit.

Did you not notice where the enemy is within the verses quoted? The enemy is within the Institutional Church. This Church is NOT the True Church.

The True Church has also been hidden within the outward Church system, and God has been calling forth many of the True church to come out...

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

If God is calling you out of the Institutional Church then you very well ought to obey... amen?

Christ did not institute an institutional Church but a fluid entity with LIFE. He did not set up man made rules and regulations. Man did.

Have you ever done a study on the Lake of Fire?... from Genesis to Revelation. Have you done a study on 'fire' and what it symbolizes?

Easton's Bible Dictionary

CHURCH


Derived probably from the Greek kuriakon (i.e., "the Lord's house"), which was used by ancient authors for the place of worship.
In the New Testament it is the translation of the Greek word ecclesia, which is synonymous with the Hebrew kahal of the Old Testament, both words meaning simply an assembly, the character of which can only be known from the connection in which the word is found. There is no clear instance of its being used for a place of meeting or of worship, although in post-apostolic times it early received this meaning. Nor is this word ever used to denote the inhabitants of a country united in the same profession, as when we say the "Church of England," the "Church of Scotland," etc.
We find the word ecclesia used in the following senses in the New Testament:
(1.) It is translated "assembly" in the ordinary classical sense (Acts 19:32, 39, 41).
(2.) It denotes the whole body of the redeemed, all those whom the Father has given to Christ, the invisible catholic church (Ephesians 5:23, 25, 27, 29; Hebrews 12:23).
(3.) A few Christians associated together in observing the ordinances of the gospel are an ecclesia (Romans 16:5; Colossians 4:15).
(4.) All the Christians in a particular city, whether they assembled together in one place or in several places for religious worship, were an ecclesia. Thus all the disciples in Antioch, forming several congregations, were one church (Acts 13:1); so also we read of the "church of God at Corinth" (1 Corinthians 1:2), "the church at Jerusalem" (Acts 8:1), "the church of Ephesus" (Revelation 2:1), etc.
(5.) The whole body of professing Christians throughout the world (1 Corinthians 15:9; Galatians 1:13; Matthew 16:18) are the church of Christ.
The church visible "consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion, together with their children." It is called "visible" because its members are known and its assemblies are public. Here there is a mixture of "wheat and chaff," of saints and sinners. "God has commanded his people to organize themselves into distinct visible ecclesiastical communities, with constitutions, laws, and officers, badges, ordinances, and discipline, for the great purpose of giving visibility to his kingdom, of making known the gospel of that kingdom, and of gathering in all its elect subjects. Each one of these distinct organized communities which is faithful to the great King is an integral part of the visible church, and all together constitute the catholic or universal visible church." A credible profession of the true religion constitutes a person a member of this church. This is "the kingdom of heaven," whose character and progress are set forth in the parables recorded in Matthew 13.
The children of all who thus profess the true religion are members of the visible church along with their parents. Children are included in every covenant God ever made with man. They go along with their parents (Genesis 9:9-17; 12:1-3; 17:7; Exodus 20:5; Deuteronomy 29:10-13). Peter, on the day of Pentecost, at the beginning of the New Testament dispensation, announces the same great principle. "The promise [just as to Abraham and his seed the promises were made] is unto you, and to your children" (Acts 2:38, 39). The children of believing parents are "holy", i.e., are "saints", a title which designates the members of the Christian church (1 Corinthians 7:14). (see BAPTISM.)
The church invisible "consists of the whole number of the elect that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one under Christ, the head thereof." This is a pure society, the church in which Christ dwells. It is the body of Christ. it is called "invisible" because the greater part of those who constitute it are already in heaven or are yet unborn, and also because its members still on earth cannot certainly be distinguished. The qualifications of membership in it are internal and are hidden. It is unseen except by Him who "searches the heart." "The Lord knoweth them that are his" (2 Timothy 2:19).
The church to which the attributes, prerogatives, and promises appertaining to Christ's kingdom belong, is a spiritual body consisting of all true believers, i.e., the church invisible.
(1.) Its unity. God has ever had only one church on earth. We sometimes speak of the Old Testament Church and of the New Testament church, but they are one and the same. The Old Testament church was not to be changed but enlarged (Isaiah 49:13-23; 60:1-14). When the Jews are at length restored, they will not enter a new church, but will be grafted again into "their own olive tree" (Romans 11:18-24; Comp. Ephesians 2:11-22). The apostles did not set up a new organization. Under their ministry disciples were "added" to the "church" already existing (Acts 2:47).
(2.) Its universality. It is the "catholic" church; not confined to any particular country or outward organization, but comprehending all believers throughout the whole world. (3.) Its perpetuity. It will continue through all ages to the end of the world. It can never be destroyed. It is an "everlasting kindgdom."

 

[heavensprings]

Easton's Bible Dictionary

CHURCH


Derived probably from the Greek kuriakon (i.e., "the Lord's house"), which was used by ancient authors for the place of worship.
In the New Testament it is the translation of the Greek word ecclesia, which is synonymous with the Hebrew kahal of the Old Testament, both words meaning simply an assembly, the character of which can only be known from the connection in which the word is found. There is no clear instance of its being used for a place of meeting or of worship, although in post-apostolic times it early received this meaning. Nor is this word ever used to denote the inhabitants of a country united in the same profession, as when we say the "Church of England," the "Church of Scotland," etc.
We find the word ecclesia used in the following senses in the New Testament:
(1.) It is translated "assembly" in the ordinary classical sense (Acts 19:32, 39, 41).
(2.) It denotes the whole body of the redeemed, all those whom the Father has given to Christ, the invisible catholic church (Ephesians 5:23, 25, 27, 29; Hebrews 12:23).
(3.) A few Christians associated together in observing the ordinances of the gospel are an ecclesia (Romans 16:5; Colossians 4:15).
(4.) All the Christians in a particular city, whether they assembled together in one place or in several places for religious worship, were an ecclesia. Thus all the disciples in Antioch, forming several congregations, were one church (Acts 13:1); so also we read of the "church of God at Corinth" (1 Corinthians 1:2), "the church at Jerusalem" (Acts 8:1), "the church of Ephesus" (Revelation 2:1), etc.
(5.) The whole body of professing Christians throughout the world (1 Corinthians 15:9; Galatians 1:13; Matthew 16:18) are the church of Christ.
The church visible "consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion, together with their children." It is called "visible" because its members are known and its assemblies are public. Here there is a mixture of "wheat and chaff," of saints and sinners. "God has commanded his people to organize themselves into distinct visible ecclesiastical communities, with constitutions, laws, and officers, badges, ordinances, and discipline, for the great purpose of giving visibility to his kingdom, of making known the gospel of that kingdom, and of gathering in all its elect subjects. Each one of these distinct organized communities which is faithful to the great King is an integral part of the visible church, and all together constitute the catholic or universal visible church." A credible profession of the true religion constitutes a person a member of this church. This is "the kingdom of heaven," whose character and progress are set forth in the parables recorded in Matthew 13.
The children of all who thus profess the true religion are members of the visible church along with their parents. Children are included in every covenant God ever made with man. They go along with their parents (Genesis 9:9-17; 12:1-3; 17:7; Exodus 20:5; Deuteronomy 29:10-13). Peter, on the day of Pentecost, at the beginning of the New Testament dispensation, announces the same great principle. "The promise [just as to Abraham and his seed the promises were made] is unto you, and to your children" (Acts 2:38, 39). The children of believing parents are "holy", i.e., are "saints", a title which designates the members of the Christian church (1 Corinthians 7:14). (see BAPTISM.)
The church invisible "consists of the whole number of the elect that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one under Christ, the head thereof." This is a pure society, the church in which Christ dwells. It is the body of Christ. it is called "invisible" because the greater part of those who constitute it are already in heaven or are yet unborn, and also because its members still on earth cannot certainly be distinguished. The qualifications of membership in it are internal and are hidden. It is unseen except by Him who "searches the heart." "The Lord knoweth them that are his" (2 Timothy 2:19).
The church to which the attributes, prerogatives, and promises appertaining to Christ's kingdom belong, is a spiritual body consisting of all true believers, i.e., the church invisible.
(1.) Its unity. God has ever had only one church on earth. We sometimes speak of the Old Testament Church and of the New Testament church, but they are one and the same. The Old Testament church was not to be changed but enlarged (Isaiah 49:13-23; 60:1-14). When the Jews are at length restored, they will not enter a new church, but will be grafted again into "their own olive tree" (Romans 11:18-24; Comp. Ephesians 2:11-22). The apostles did not set up a new organization. Under their ministry disciples were "added" to the "church" already existing (Acts 2:47).
(2.) Its universality. It is the "catholic" church; not confined to any particular country or outward organization, but comprehending all believers throughout the whole world. (3.) Its perpetuity. It will continue through all ages to the end of the world. It can never be destroyed. It is an "everlasting kindgdom."

Yes, Christ Jesus came to build HIS Church... it just isn't the Institutional Church.

 

[heavensprings]

But don't get me wrong Natalie... for many reasons I live with my elderly mother and will be until next year, and while I live with her I take her to her church service whenever I'm well enough. I love the people in her church, and I must say it's one of the better churches I've seen in years. But I still hate the whole set up and the false teachings.

But I do love the people and I know many (not all) ARE of the Body of Christ.

 

[NatalieJan777]

But don't get me wrong Natalie... for many reasons I live with my elderly mother and will be until next year, and while I live with her I take her to her church service whenever I'm well enough. I love the people in her church, and I must say it's one of the better churches I've seen in years. But I still hate the whole set up and the false teachings.

But I do love the people and I know many (not all) ARE of the Body of Christ.

One thing I have learned is that one cannot experience change unless they submit to GOD, for it is only HIS SPIRIT that knows a mans heart and can change it. The institutional Church is where those who are lost come to seek help. Therefore, I am careful not to judge before it's time. I agree that there are many man made rituals that take place in churches around the world. But we can't judge the whole church because of them.

It seems arrogant to me to hear you say "false teachings". No one knows everything but GOD. I do not condemn others because they are not as spiritually evolved as I might think I am - Luke 6:37. I humble myself before GOD and put it all in HIS capable loving hands. I accept that there are things that maybe it is not my place to know. A little humility toward GOD's creation goes a long way, arrogance goes no where.

Proverbs 6:16-19 There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes (arrogance), a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.

If you want to show the LORD that you love HIM, don't do the things HE HATES.

 

[heavensprings]

......

 

[Tavita]

One thing I have learned is that one cannot experience change unless they submit to GOD, for it is only HIS SPIRIT that knows a mans heart and can change it. The institutional Church is where those who are lost come to seek help. Therefore, I am careful not to judge before it's time. I agree that there are many man made rituals that take place in churches around the world. But we can't judge the whole church because of them.

It seems arrogant to me to hear you say "false teachings". No one knows everything but GOD. I do not condemn others because they are not as spiritually evolved as I might think I am - Luke 6:37. I humble myself before GOD and put it all in HIS capable loving hands. I accept that there are things that maybe it is not my place to know. A little humility toward GOD's creation goes a long way, arrogance goes no where.

Proverbs 6:16-19 There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes (arrogance), a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.

If you want to show the LORD that you love HIM, don't do the things HE HATES.

I do not believe heavensprings was judging the body of Christ, or the Church, but the ~ institution or organisation ~ itself. That is not the real church. The real church is the people, and the Kingdom of God/Temple is within, not without. It is not buildings or programs or the business it has become today with it's many man made rules and regulations, and most of all it's manipulations. People, true believers, are the Temple/Church/Body and the Kingdom is within.

Mar 14:58 "We heard Him say, 'I will destroy this temple made with hands, and in three days I will build another made without hands.'"

 

[NatalieJan777]

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

If God is calling you out of the Institutional Church then you very well ought to obey... amen?

Sounds to me to be condemning here, not only toward the institutional church but anyone who remains in it as well.

She is equating Babylon with the institutional churches. All I ask is for biblical back up for her belief.

------------------------------------------


BABYLON IN THE NEW TESTAMENT Babylon Babulon, is used in New Testament in at least two different senses:

1. Mesopotamian Babylon:

In Matthew 1:11, 12, 17 Acts 7:43 the old Mesop city is plainly meant. These all refer to the captivity in Babylon and do not demand any further discussion.

2. Symbolic Sense:

All the references to Babylon in Re are evidently symbolic. Some of the most important passages are Revelation 14:8; Revelation 16:19; Revelation 17:5; Revelation 18:2, 10, 21. In Revelation 17:5 Babylon is designated as musterion. This undoubtedly in dicates that the name is to be under stood figuratively. A few interpreters have believed that Jerusalem was the city that was designated as Babylon, but most scholars hold that Rome was the city that was meant. That interpretation goes back at least to the time of Tertullian (Adv. Marc., iii. 13). This interpretation was adopted by Jerome and Augustine and has been commonly accepted by the church. There are some striking facts which point to Rome as the city that is designated as Babylon.

(1) The characteristics ascribed to this Babylon apply to Rome rather than to any other city of that age:

(a) as ruling over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18);

(b) as sitting on seven mountains (Revelation 17:9);

(c) as the center of the world's merchandise (Revelation 18:3, 11-13);

(d) as the corrupter of the nations (Revelation 17:2; Revelation 18:3; Revelation 19:2);

(e) as the persecutor of the saints (Revelation 17:6).

(2) Rome is designated as Babylon in the Sibylline Oracles (5 143), and this is perhaps an early Jewish portion of the book. The comparison of Rome to Babylon is common in Jewish apocalyptic literature (see 2 Esdras and the Apocrypha Baruch).

(3) Rome was regarded by both Jews and Christians as being antagonistic to the kingdom of God, and its downfall was confidently expected, This conception is in accord with the predicted downfall of Babylon (Revelation 14:8; Revelation 18:2, 10-21). As Babylon had been the oppressor of Israel, it was natural that this new power, which was oppressing the people of God, should be designated as Babylon.

3. In 1 Peter:

In 1 Peter 5:13 Babylon is designated as the place from which 1Pe was written. Down to the time of the Reformation this was generally under stood to mean Rome, and two cursives added "en Roma." Since the Reformation, many scholars have followed Erasmus and Calvin and have urged that the Mesopotamian Babylon is meant. Three theories should be noted:

(1) That the Egyptian Babylon, or Old Cairo; is meant. Strabo (XVII, 807) who wrote as late as 18 A.D., says the Egyptian Babylon was a strong fortress founded by certain refugees from the Mesop Babylon. But during the 1st century this was not much more than a military station, and it is quite improbable that Peter would have gone there. There is no tradition that connects Peter' in any way with Egypt.

(2) That the statement is to be taken literally and that the Mesop Babylon is meant. Many good scholars hold to this view, and among these are Weiss and Thayer, but there is no evidence that Peter was ever in Babylon, or that there was even a church there during the 1st century. Mark and Silvanus are associated with Peter in the letter and there is no tradition that connects either of them with Babylon. According to Josephus (Antiquities, XVIII, ix, 5-9), the Jews at this time had largely been driven out of Babylon and were confined to neighboring towns, and it seems improbable that Peter would have made that his missionary field.

(3) That Rome was the city that was designated as Babylon. The Apocalypse would indicate that the churches would understand the symbolic reference, and it seems to have been so understood until the time of the Reformation. The denial of this position was in line with the effort to refute Peter's supposed connection with the Roman church. Ancient tradition, however, makes it seem quite probable that Peter did make a visit to Rome (see Lightfoot, Clement, II, 493).

Internal evidence helps to substantiate theory that Rome was the place from which the letter was written. Mark sends greetings (1 Peter 5:13), and we know he had been summoned to Rome by the apostle Paul (2 Timothy 4:11). The whole passage, "She that is in Babylon, elect together with you, saluteth you," seems to be figurative, and that being true, it is natural that Babylon should have been used instead of Rome. The character of the letter as a whole would point to Rome as the place of writing. Ramsay thinks this book is impregnated with Roman thought beyond any other book in the Bible (see The Church in the Roman Empire, 286).

A. W. Fortune Bible Encyclopedia: Babylon

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Your reference

Mar 14:58 "We heard Him say, 'I will destroy this temple made with hands, and in three days I will build another made without hands.'"

Christ is basically saying that he will be mediator between GOD and the people when he conquers death and raises after the third day ie resurrection. This is why in Mark 15:38 and in Matthew 27:51 The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. This curtain in the temple was what seperated the congregation (church members) from the most Holy of Holy. Only the High Priests were allowed access. After Christ's resurrection all that believe in HIM now have direct access to GOD through HIM.

You want to abolish institutional churches, which yes, do have the wheat and the chaff in them. But where will those wishing to be saved go if this is done? How will the gospel of Christ be preached? To abolish it is not the answer. To pray for the people and get involved in your local "institutional" church is the answer.

 

[Tavita]

You want to abolish institutional churches, which yes, do have the wheat and the chaff in them. But where will those wishing to be saved go if this is done? How will the gospel of Christ be preached? To abolish it is not the answer. To pray for the people and get involved in your local "institutional" church is the answer.

Hmm.. now where did this come from? Are you sure you're not putting words in my mouth? Did I actually say I wanted institutional churches abolished?

I guess all the above questions can be answered by looking at the very early church. Most times they were scattered by persecution to remote areas, most times without leaders. They still managed to preach the good news, and to learn and grow, usually without all the scriptures we have now at their disposal. One must listen to the anointing of the Holy Spirit within.

I have children who are very immature baby christians, they have nowhere to go but the IC, so for the time being they must go there. I was taught a great deal in the IC (though some of it now has to be relearned ~ still can't throw the baby out with the bathwater). There comes a time when one must rely on the Lord with no mediator between (as you suggested) and learn to hear God for themselves. That is christian maturity. But in the IC you find the whole idea is to have a mediator (the pastor and leaders) who tell you what you must believe, and if you question them then you are questioning the ~ authority of the church ~.

1Jn 2:27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

Praying for people to come into the maturity of Christ is the answer, not to tell God where we think they must go.

Anyway, this thread has gone way off track and this subject should be discussed in the appropriate forum.

 

[NatalieJan777]

Hmm.. now where did this come from? Are you sure you're not putting words in my mouth? Did I actually say I wanted institutional churches abolished?

I guess all the above questions can be answered by looking at the very early church. Most times they were scattered by persecution to remote areas, most times without leaders. They still managed to preach the good news, and to learn and grow, usually without all the scriptures we have now at their disposal. One must listen to the anointing of the Holy Spirit within.

I have children who are very immature baby christians, they have nowhere to go but the IC, so for the time being they must go there. I was taught a great deal in the IC (though some of it now has to be relearned ~ still can't throw the baby out with the bathwater). There comes a time when one must rely on the Lord with no mediator between (as you suggested) and learn to hear God for themselves. That is christian maturity. But in the IC you find the whole idea is to have a mediator (the pastor and leaders) who tell you what you must believe, and if you question them then you are questioning the ~ authority of the church ~.

1Jn 2:27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

Praying for people to come into the maturity of Christ is the answer, not to tell God where we think they must go.

Anyway, this thread has gone way off track and this subject should be discussed in the appropriate forum.

Perhaps abolish was a stong word, would boycott or anti church be better fitting? It appearantly offended you and I appologize for that.

I agree with everything you say, because I know it to be truth. But baby christians as you call them need the nurturing required to evolve in their christianity. This is so much more true of children not being brought up in a Christian home and those adults who are totally new to Christianity. The IC is instrumental in bringing Jesus into their hearts in ways one cannot even fathom.

The bible says:

Hebrews 10:24-25 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

The body of Christ Jesus is made up of many believers, all of whom have their own distinct personalities/spiritual gifts. These gifts are to be used in unity to bring us all closer to the WORD of GOD. Would one not be hiding their talent if they keep it to themsleves and didn't use it because of their dislike of IC's? Do we not learn and grow spiritually within our fellowship with other believers? There are plenty of home based churches, how are these any different than larger one's?

Not all IC's have preachers who do not preach truth. The old saying 'one bad apple does not make the whole bunch bad' is true.

 

[Tavita]

Perhaps abolish was a stong word, would boycott or anti church be better fitting? It appearantly offended you and I appologize for that.

Thanks for the apology, it only offended me because it wasn't the truth.
I don't think it's right to tell anyone to boycott or to not go to church. They must listen to the Holy Spirit and obey whatever He requires of them for themselves.

One must do whatever He tells you to do. Sometimes that means God will take a person out of the IC, and if that offends anyone then really they must look within to see what their own agenda is and realize that to their own Master that person must stand or fall.

I agree with everything you say, because I know it to be truth. But baby christians as you call them need the nurturing required to evolve in their christianity. This is so much more true of children not being brought up in a Christian home and those adults who are totally new to Christianity. The IC is instrumental in bringing Jesus into their hearts in ways one cannot even fathom.

Yes, I have to agree.

But let's just take another listen to those who have been called out and trust God that He knows what He's doing with them.
And also listen when some are angry and hurt with the IC, as many have been very spiritually/sexually/emotionally abused within that 'system'.

The bible says:

Hebrews 10:24-25 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

I don't know if you realize that this verse does not apply to going to a building to be entertained and to simply sit back on one's behind to listen to an oration. This is about christians meeting anywhere, the home, the marketplace, wherever. It's about encouraging each other, and I can do that quite well with all the different christians from many denominations I know and meet with and talk with on the phone/email and down the street.

The body of Christ Jesus is made up of many believers, all of whom have their own distinct personalities/spiritual gifts. These gifts are to be used in unity to bring us all closer to the WORD of GOD. Would one not be hiding their talent if they keep it to themsleves and didn't use it because of their dislike of IC's? Do we not learn and grow spiritually within our fellowship with other believers? There are plenty of home based churches, how are these any different than larger one's?

Meeting with and encouraging and helping others to grow spiritually can happen anywhere and anytime. The early church was not an organization or institution and I'd say they grew explosively both numerically and spiritually. I spent over twenty years in the IC, and yes, I did grow, but it's not the only way for growth.

There are plenty of home based churches and usually they are the ones who have left the IC wanting to have something real, something that aligns with the scriptures, something without the same laws, manipulations, middle man, etc. There is a forum for home churches in CF, here's one thread where the OP has described what it can be like to leave the IC...
http://www.christianforums.com/t7369546/
Maybe you could take a look around and find out what it is that people like about house churches.

If I could find a house church anywhere near me that's where I'd be.

Not all IC's have preachers who do not preach truth. The old saying 'one bad apple does not make the whole bunch bad' is true.

I would say most preachers do not preach the truth..
(but of course there are some...)

 

[NatalieJan777]

Thanks for the apology, it only offended me because it wasn't the truth.
I don't think it's right to tell anyone to boycott or to not go to church. They must listen to the Holy Spirit and obey whatever He requires of them for themselves.

One must do whatever He tells you to do. Sometimes that means God will take a person out of the IC, and if that offends anyone then really they must look within to see what their own agenda is and realize that to their own Master that person must stand or fall.



Yes, I have to agree.

But let's just take another listen to those who have been called out and trust God that He knows what He's doing with them.
And also listen when some are angry and hurt with the IC, as many have been very spiritually/sexually/emotionally abused within that 'system'.



I don't know if you realize that this verse does not apply to going to a building to be entertained and to simply sit back on one's behind to listen to an oration. This is about christians meeting anywhere, the home, the marketplace, wherever. It's about encouraging each other, and I can do that quite well with all the different christians from many denominations I know and meet with and talk with on the phone/email and down the street.



Meeting with and encouraging and helping others to grow spiritually can happen anywhere and anytime. The early church was not an organization or institution and I'd say they grew explosively both numerically and spiritually. I spent over twenty years in the IC, and yes, I did grow, but it's not the only way for growth.

There are plenty of home based churches and usually they are the ones who have left the IC wanting to have something real, something that aligns with the scriptures, something without the same laws, manipulations, middle man, etc. There is a forum for home churches in CF, here's one thread where the OP has described what it can be like to leave the IC...
http://www.christianforums.com/t7369546/
Maybe you could take a look around and find out what it is that people like about house churches.

If I could find a house church anywhere near me that's where I'd be.


I would say most preachers do not preach the truth..
(but of course there are some...)

#1. Thank you for your acceptance of my appology. I have bolded within your text a few issues that I would like to reply to.

#2. I am not offended by people leaving the church. What offends me is their speaking evil of it.

#3. It is unfortunate that others have been hurt by other people within the IC. However, I believe to be Christian and show that you are following Christ, one needs to do as Jesus says.

Matthew 6:14-15 "For if you forgive others their offences, your Heavenly Father will forgive you also; but if you do not forgive others their offences, neither will your Father forgive yours."

My prayer is that for what ever reason some choose to leave the IC that they are able to forgive from their heart so that they may be forgiven by our heavenly Father.

#4. Personally I do not got to church to listen to a sermon. I go to serve Christ Jesus by helping to bring others closer to HIM in what ever service is needed of me. I believe that the Appostle Paul wrote this to help believers to keep them from slipping back into the world.

#5. Evil-speaking (5 Occurrences) Slander is not a good thing.

Ephesians 4: 1-32

Unity in the Body of Christ

As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men.” (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. Fom him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

Living as Children of Light
So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more. You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. “In your anger do not sin”: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold. He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need. Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

The IC is nothing more than a body of believers in Christ Jesus, they are all still growing, even the preachers. If they were done growing, they wouldn't be on this earth.

 

[Tavita]

#1. Thank you for your acceptance of my appology. I have bolded within your text a few issues that I would like to reply to.

#2. I am not offended by people leaving the church. What offends me is their speaking evil of it.

#3. It is unfortunate that others have been hurt by other people within the IC. However, I believe to be Christian and show that you are following Christ, one needs to do as Jesus says.

Matthew 6:14-15 "For if you forgive others their offences, your Heavenly Father will forgive you also; but if you do not forgive others their offences, neither will your Father forgive yours."

My prayer is that for what ever reason some choose to leave the IC that they are able to forgive from their heart so that they may be forgiven by our heavenly Father.

#4. Personally I do not got to church to listen to a sermon. I go to serve Christ Jesus by helping to bring others closer to HIM in what ever service is needed of me. I believe that the Appostle Paul wrote this to help believers to keep them from slipping back into the world.

#5. Evil-speaking (5 Occurrences) Slander is not a good thing.

Ephesians 4: 1-32

Unity in the Body of Christ

As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men.” (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. Fom him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

Living as Children of Light
So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more. You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. “In your anger do not sin”: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold. He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need. Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

The IC is nothing more than a body of believers in Christ Jesus, they are all still growing, even the preachers. If they were done growing, they wouldn't be on this earth.

I can see why heavensprings gave up on you, if you feel that using scripture to upbraid and belittle someone else's thoughts and opinions is a good thing to do. And, having to yell with large bolded words which is considered rudeness online. I'm appalled that you could charge hurt and bewildered christians with unforgiveness yet hang on in defence of the perpetrators. Those folk usually work through their hurts and find the strength to forgive. I've seen such a lack of understanding and grace in your posts that I don't wish to continue with you either.

 

[NatalieJan777]

I can see why heavensprings gave up on you, if you feel that using scripture to upbraid and belittle someone else's thoughts and opinions is a good thing to do. And, having to yell with large bolded words which is considered rudeness online. I'm appalled that you could charge hurt and bewildered christians with unforgiveness yet hang on in defence of the perpetrators. Those folk usually work through their hurts and find the strength to forgive. I've seen such a lack of understanding and grace in your posts that don't wish to continue with you either.

You are etitled to your opinion. May God BLESS you as well

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Oh come on, what about Luke 13?

Anyway, I am refering to Jesus not the whole NT. And He may not have used the word, it was the references to it, the Lake of Fire, the second death, even when He didn't call it by name just the punishment of the wicked or those who don't follow. The subject was brought up many times but never with exit involved.

I'm leaving for a long weekend, see you Monday, the Good Lord willing!

I am rather partial to Luke 15, 16 myself

 

[Tavita]

I am rather partial to Luke 15, 16 myself

Hi LLOJ!

I rather like those two chapters myself.

Love this parable..

Luk 15:4 "What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
Luk 15:5 "When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
Luk 15:6 "And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!'
Luk 15:7 "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

That same word, apollumi (lost) (#622) is also often translated "destroy" and is assumed to mean "to deprive of life" as in John 10:9, 10 where Jesus is speaking,

"I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief cometh not but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. . ."

There are three words used to describe what the thief comes to do:
1) steal,
2) kill, ~ the word translated "kill" is the Greek word "thuo" (#2380) which means to slay or slaughter, as in slaughtering sacrifices.
3) destroy.

Obviously the word "kill" (thuo) CANNOT mean the same as the word "destroy" (apollumi) for two reasons:
1) each word is a different word in the Greek
2) it would be redundant if the word "destroy" meant to kill, because if it did, the passage would read, "The thief cometh not but for to steal, and to kill, and to kill."

How can one word mean to deprive of life and to be alive at the same time?