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I recently watched a lecture where they explained Lucifer was a name for the planet Venus, the so called morning star. It's part symbolic since next to the sun it is the brightest object and fights against the sunrise to stay visible, a sort of rebellion against the sunrise, or something like that. The name Lucifer is discussed about 13 min 30 seconds into this clip:

The same youtube channel 'The Bible Project" publishes a lot of informative videos. More on Satan:



Secular and Biblical Dictionaries explain this also that Lucifer can be connected with the planet Venus. This is because like worshiping Satan directly people also worship satan indirectly through worshiping the planets and we see this in the book of Acts. People still worship the planets today just look up Saturn worship or astrology and star signs etc as behind this worshiping of the hosts of heaven is the satanic kingdom who is spiritually influencing people to do this.

Acts 14:12-14

12 And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.

13 Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.




LUCIFER - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

KJV Dictionary Definition: lucifer
lucifer
LU'CIFER, n. L. lux, lucis, light, and fero, to bring.

1. The planet Venus, so called from its brightness.

2. Satan.

And when he falls, he falls like Lucifer, never to hope again.


Definition of LUCIFER

Lucifer
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Lu·ci·fer | \ ˈlü-sə-fər \
Definition of Lucifer


1 used as a name of the devil

2: the planet Venus when appearing as the morning star





 
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Refirened

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Whew! Much better post. Thanks for changing. Anyway, I often reference the Jewish encyclopedia when it comes to the Old Testament. Lucifer is actually the King of Babylon.
Be blessed!

LUCIFER - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Even in that link it explains that it is used as a name of the devil as quoted below.

Accordingly Tertullian ("Contra Marrionem," v. 11, 17), Origen ("Ezekiel Opera," iii. 356), and others, identify Lucifer with Satan, who also is represented as being "cast down from heaven" (Rev. xii. 7, 10; comp. Luke x. 18).
 
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Maria Billingsley

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And even in that link, it explains that it is used as a name of the devil as quoted below.

Accordingly Tertullian ("Contra Marrionem," v. 11, 17), Origen ("Ezekiel Opera," iii. 356), and others, identify Lucifer with Satan, who also is represented as being "cast down from heaven" (Rev. xii. 7, 10; comp. Luke x. 18).
It is only stating the incorrect use of the original Latin translation of morning star. It is unfortunate that the KJV used the Latin word for morning star because it completely changes the whole meaning of Isaiah. Maybe this video can shed some light for you and others.
 
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Refirened

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It is only stating the incorrect use of the original Latin translation of morning star. It is unfortunate that the KJV used the Latin word for morning star because it completely changes the whole meaning of Isaiah. Maybe this video can shed some light for you and others.

No offense but a youtube video from some unqualified random person contradicting your last post from the Jewish encyclopedia will not cause me to ignore every secular and biblical dictionary.

The mans youtube channel is called hell is not real, says it all really.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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No offense but a youtube video from some unqualified random person contradicting your last post from the Jewish encyclopedia will not cause me to ignore every secular and biblical dictionary.

The mans youtube channel is called hell is not real, says it all really.
No offence taken but that being said, he actually does know who Lucifer is.
Take care.
 
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timothyu

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Accordingly Tertullian ("Contra Marrionem," v. 11, 17), Origen ("Ezekiel Opera," iii. 356), and others, identify Lucifer with Satan, who also is represented as being "cast down from heaven" (Rev. xii. 7, 10; comp. Luke x. 18).
 
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Accordingly Tertullian ("Contra Marrionem," v. 11, 17), Origen ("Ezekiel Opera," iii. 356), and others, identify Lucifer with Satan, who also is represented as being "cast down from heaven" (Rev. xii. 7, 10; comp. Luke x. 18).

What does your avatar represent ?

It's interesting that you have the 8 pointed star of Ishtar in your avatar which is also linked to the planet Venus/lucifer.
 
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DamianWarS

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In reading a thread on whether or not our Lord Jesus Christ is actually St. Michael the Archangel (he isn’t), I came across this post, which I felt interesting enough to warrant a thread, as I believe, as did Martin Luther and John Calvin, that this is a grave mistake and also points to one of the few errors in the KJV translation, which is otherwise my favorite English edition of the Bible.



No it doesn’t. Luficer is a Latin word, and none of the Latin church fathers of the Patristic age, including those who interpreted Isaiah 14 as referring to Satan rather than Nebuchadnezzar, used the word Lucifer to refer to the devil.

In fact, there is a fourth century Christian saint named Lucifer! St. Lucifer of Cagliari was the Bishop of Cagliaria in Sardinia, who is venerated in Sardinia for his stance against the Arian heresy. And St. Jerome, the translator of the Vulgate, had a major beef with St. Lucifer over Origen, whom the Sardinian bishop admired and Jerome regarded as a heretic, but never took a low blow against St. Lucifer for that.

Lucifer was not an uncommon name among Romans and I recall reading of a Christian martyr in the second century who was also named Lucifer.

In the middle ages, Roman Catholic demonologists who only used the Vulgate Bible, which by the way does not use Lucifer as a proper noun, since the word literally is the Latin word for “morning star” and was translated correctly by St. Jerome, proposed that Lucifer was a proper name for Satan. Others took the view that Lucifer, Beezlebub and Satan were three different entities.

In the Canaanite religion and several other Semitic Pagan religions had a story of a god or goddess associated with the morning star trying to seize the throne of Baal and being cast down; in Canaanism the deity who attempted this, Attar, failing to assume the thrown of Baal, descended to and ruled the underworld. These stories are likely examples of how the devil spreads confusion by creating religions similiar to Nicene Christianity, or in its pre-incarnational form, the congregation of Israel, and these stories pop up centuries or millenia later to cause confusion. More recent examples of false religions superficially similiar to Christianity are the Bahai Faith, Unitarianism and the Unitarian Universalist Association, the New Church (Swedenborgianism), Spiritualism, the Moonies, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and worst of all, the People’s Temple (Jim Jones, of Jonestown, who poisoned the kool-aid).

So, Dante in his Inferno decided to call the devil Lucifer, and Milton, doubtless referencing that, in his work Paradise Lost employed the same name. Milton also was doubtless influenced by the one of the few major mistakes in the King James Version, which was the translation of “Morning Star” from the Hebrew into Lucifer, instead of “Morning Star”, a rare example of the King James translators departing from the principle of textual equivalence in favor of dynamic equivalence.

This error on the part of the KJV translators has been a disaster, because it has propagated the false belief that Isaiah 14 refers to the devil (due to Milton and Dante), which was rejected by both Martin Luther and John Calvin, not to mention a number of church fathers. It also makes no sense, because why translate from Hebrew into Latin? We can say for certain that even if Isaiah 14 does refer to the devil, Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but rather, a mere translation of the name.

Rather, if Luther, Calvin, and numerous church fathers are wrong, and Origen and Tertullian, both anathematized heretics, and the Bogomils and Cathars* (who were Gnostic heretics who also believed that the devil was named Lucifer), are right, then the most correct translation of this alleged original name of Satan would be Helel ben Shachar, because that is the phrase in Isaiah 14 translated as Lucifer. It certainly would not be a word from a language that the early Church did not even use in worship, or bother translating the Bible into, until the second century.**

I would note the only legitimate Church Father who was not a heretic who considered Isaiah 14 to refer to the devil was St. Augustine of Hippo, who was greatly admired by Luther and Calvin, who nonetheless disagreed with him on this and many other issues, but Augustine never referred to the devil as Lucifer. And why not? Because St. Augustine, being a scholar, would have read Isaiah as much from the Greek Septuagint as from the Vulgate, and also knew the Vulgate was not using Lucifer as a proper noun, but was a mere translation of the Hebrew. And St. Augustine had an even more compelling reason to not refer to the devil as Lucifer, more compelling than respect for St. Lucifero the Martyr and St. Lucifer the Bishop of Cagliari, the fact that John the Baptist and indeed our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ are referred to as the morning star in various ancient Latin hymns, thus, calling them Lucifer, including Aeterne rerum conditor a hymn written by St. Ambrose of Milan, which refers to our Lord Jesus Christ as the Morning Star, as Lucifer. St. Ambrose of Milan was St. Augustine’s mentor and catechist, who persuaded him to convert to Christianity from Manichaean Gnosticism, and who baptized him into the Church; the two great Latin fathers even wrote a hymn together, the famed Te Deum Laudamus, which is one of the most popular hymns and is also one of the canticles sung in Morning Prayer in the Church of England.

St. Hilary of Poitiers, another church father, who is considered along with St. Athanasius of Alexandria to be one of the two staunchest opponents of the heresy of Arius, who denied the deity of Jesus Christ and considered him a creature, wrote the hymn Lucis largitor splendide, which also refers to our Lord Jesus Christ as the Morning Star, in Latin, and thus as Lucifer, which St. Augustine would also have been familiar with, given that the Church during Augustine’s career as a writer in the 5th century regarded Athanasius of Alexandria and Hilary of Poitiers as heroes for their role in fighting Arianism, almost by themselves, during the dark years following the death of Emperor Constantine, when Arianism replaced Christianity as the state religion of the Roman Empire and Athanasius was exiled from his native Egypt to Trier, then the main base of the crumbling Western Empire’s increasingly unsuccessful military operations against invading Germanic tribes, and Hilary of Poitiers was his only deeply committed faithful friend and supporter who absolutely refused the idea of any compromise with the Arians.

In conclusion, based on the entirety of the evidence, we can say that Scripture does not reveal the original name of Satan to be Lucifer. It is possible his name was Helel ben Schahar, but not Lucifer, a Latin word referring to the Morning Star, which was used by two of the most pious Christians of the fourth century, St. Ambrose of Milan and St. Hilary of Poitiers, to refer to our lord and savior Jesus Christ, and a word which St. Augustine, the only orthodox Church Father who believed Isaiah 14 referred to the devil, and not Nebuchadnezzar, did not use when discussing that passage. Because indeed he was catechized and baptized by St. Ambrose, who did refer to our Lord as the Morning Star in a Latin hymn. Rather, as Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted, Isaiah 14 refers to Nebuchadnezzar and has nothing to do with our adversary the evil one, “the prince of the power of the air.”***

Does the devil even have a name? Satan, the accuser, is not really a name. Perhaps one could argue the evil one, having rejected God, has destroyed his person to the point where he has no name, only job descriptions.

* The Bogomils had a false Gnostic Gospel, which survives, in which the devil is referred to as Lucifer: Book of the Secret Supper - Wikipedia This book was adopted by the Cathars, who were Gnostics who abhorred marriage (a Cathar who received the Consolamenum and became a member of the Perfecti, their spiritual elite, as all who were unmarried were encouraged to do, vowed to not marry, as procreation was a sin in the Cathar faith, a view common to other Gnostic sects such as Manichaeanism.

** The Church in Rome worshipped in Greek until the reign of Archbishop Victor in the late second century AD, who, to reach the less educated Romans, the city’s poor, who did not know Greek, very commendably instituted Latin worship and commissioned the original Latin Bible, known today as the Vetus Latina. This translation was directly translated from the Greek Septuagint and the Greek New Testament and was written in exquisite Classical Latin, and phrases from it remain in use in Christian worship in the Western churches to this day, most notably, Gloria in Exclesis Deo. There were known errors in the Vetus Latina, and as a result St. Jerome was commissioned by his Archbishop of Rome (an office later styled as Pope), to translate a more accurate Latin Bible; Jerome did this, translating directly from Hebrew and Aramaic texts where they were available. His Vulgate is translated into the somewhat more vernacular Latin of the fourth century, which was already in the process of breaking up into four languages which would be the ancestors of French and Waloonian, Spanish and Portuguese, the numerous languages of Italy, and Romanian, Dalamatian and Arromanian. An example of the stylistic decline of the Vulgate vs. the Vetus Latina is demonstrated by it rendering “Glory to God in the Highest” as Gloria in Altissimus Deo, rather than Gloria in Excelsis Deo.

*** In some Eastern Orthodox monasteries, this is interpreted literally, and the brethren are strongly discouraged from gazing at the sky, because of the risk of falling into delusion due to the activities of the devil.
the Latin text also calls Christ lucifer too and in Latin liturgy it's still used for Christ. I suspect somewhere along the way it was adopted as the de facto name of Satan. Is. 14:12 in the Wycliffe bible (1382) uses it saying:

"A! Lucifer, that risidist eerli, hou feldist thou doun fro heuene; thou that woundist folkis, feldist doun togidere in to erthe."

So this isn't a KJV thing and it was already a long established concept. There is a saint Lucifer of the 4th century so I will assume the name wasn't blacklisted then. so somewhere in the span of a 1000 years between the 4th century to the 14th century the name lucifer became synonymous with Satan.

But it's silly to say it's his proper name. It's a misnomer for Satan like tin foil is a misnomer for aluminum foil (there's no tin in it) yet tin foil is still used to identify aluminum foil without issue. This is how misnomers work, they are technically wrong, but no one cares (and usually are ignorant to it)
 
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Refirened

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the Latin text also calls Christ lucifer too and in Latin liturgy it's still used for Christ. I suspect somewhere along the way it was adopted as the de facto name of Satan. Is. 14:12 in the Wycliffe bible (1382) uses it saying:

"A! Lucifer, that risidist eerli, hou feldist thou doun fro heuene; thou that woundist folkis, feldist doun togidere in to erthe."

So this isn't a KJV thing and it was already a long established concept. There is a saint Lucifer of the 4th century so I will assume the name wasn't blacklisted then. so somewhere in the span of a 1000 years between the 4th century to the 14th century the name lucifer became synonymous with Satan.

But it's silly to say it's his proper name. It's a misnomer for Satan like tin foil is a misnomer for aluminum foil (there's no tin in it) yet tin foil is still used to identify aluminum foil without issue. This is how misnomers work, they are technically wrong, but no one cares (and usually are ignorant to it)

Even when we look in Latin dictionaries we see that Lucifer is attributed to the devil not Jesus.


Latin Definitions for: lucifer (Latin Search) - Latin Dictionary and Grammar Resources - Latdict

noun

  • declension: 2nd declension
  • gender: masculine
Definitions:

  1. Lucifer, Satan
 
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timothyu

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What does your avatar represent ?
Haven't changed the Christmas avatar yet. Getting around to it. Otherwise man's head gets filled with the garbage other man comes up with and it becomes harder to read Jesus' words with an open mind.

Take Lucifer for instance. Jesus' asked His apostles who He was then said Peter's answer was the correct one as it came from God and not man. Same would apply to Lucifer. Who cares what man comes up with about who it is.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Satan is never called a cherub in the Word of God.
Never!
Nor is that passage translated correctly from the Hebrew.
Nor has the serpent been cast down to earth from heaven. He still rules his kingdom over earth, from heaven, and he and his evil angels -principalities and powers, rulers of darkness- in the heavenly realm over earth, still accuse the brethren before the throne day and night, so as to get access to test and try them, in the hopes they may fall, and become subject to the "satans", plural....Satans, with one prince over them, are created evil spirits and they are themselves subject to the Creator.

Jesus told Peter "satan has asked for you that he may sift you as wheat....but I have prayed for you, and..."

If I remember correctly, the word "phospheros" was used as a translation for 6 or 7 different Hebrew words. I believe as the Greek Lexicon was being translated into the Latin Vulgate, this would have caused some contradiction, specifically the same name being used for Jesus and Satan, so they just stuck with Lucifer, which people of that time were already familiar with as being THE Satan. In actuality, the term "Lucifer" more closely describes Jesus because Jesus is described as the bright and morning star in the Revelation. The fallen angel we know as Lucifer today was actually called Haylel (may have spelled that wrong) in the OT, which really translates to "the howling one" or "the proud/boastful one". Ultimately, it doesn't really matter though as meanings of words change over time. We know Jesus is the son of God and we know Lucifer as the cherub who rebelled against him now, so it doesn't really cause any confusion even if it was translated a little weird back in the day.
 
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JulieB67

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Lucifer or not, I believe the entity described here is Satan. He has many names as noted in Revelation and he plays many roles. And we know from Ezekiel, he had a position as a cherub, but wants the seat himself, always has. This has always been ultimately been about God and Satan. And that's how it will go down in the end times.

Men are called angels at times in the bible and Isaiah is no different. But no matter but what the name is you have to take the entire bible as a whole into account. There are many types for Satan in the bible, we know this. And sometimes the subject can change from one to the other. And at times it can be like that for Christ as well, one can be talking about David and then the scriptures right after have messianic connotations, etc.
Well, the scriptures in Isaiah mirror those in 2ndThessalonians and Revelations. I realize that not everyone is going to agree and that's fine. But no one has set himself up in the mount of congregation (Jerusalem) proclaiming to be God yet.

Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Notice the words -"cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!,


Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him

Isaiah 14:13 "For thou hast said in thine heart, `I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"

Isaiah 14:14 "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the MOST HIGH.


Take note of "I will sit also upon the mount of congregation, in the sides of the north. This is when he sits on the temple in Jerusalem proclaiming to be God. This hasn't happened yet.

This verse mirrors Paul's teaching in 2nd Thes chapter 2

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Isaiah 14:15 "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."


This mirrors Revelation

"Revelation 20:3 "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

And in Ezekiel 28, we see that the King of Tyre is symbolic of Satan and he has the same fate. We know Satan was in the garden of Eden.


Ezekiel 28:6 "Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God

Ezekiel 28:8 "They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas."

Of course I also believe Satan himself will play the role of Antichrist. He doesn't need a human do what he has always wanted to do himself and Isaiah proclaims he will sit in the temple.

As for "morning stars", when it comes to the end times. Christ is the true one, Satan is the fake. Although I'm sure that wasn't the case before the katabole. All the morning stars were happy. But he will sure be trying to convince everyone he is the real one/Messiah when the time comes. Anti in the Greek means "instead of". He will be here instead of Christ deceiving most of the world. As Paul says, he will be disguised as an angel of light. That's what "transformed" actually means.

I think that's what's really important that we need to take from all of this.

Take care
 
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DamianWarS

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Even when we look in Latin dictionaries we see that Lucifer is attributed to the devil not Jesus.


Latin Definitions for: lucifer (Latin Search) - Latin Dictionary and Grammar Resources - Latdict

noun

  • declension: 2nd declension
  • gender: masculine
Definitions:

  1. Lucifer, Satan
It doesn't really matter what a 21 century English dictionary of the Latin Vulgate says. Latin is a dead language so nothing is new. Whatever a word meant 1000 years ago is the same today.

2 Peter 1:19 (Vulgate)
et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris

And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn and the day star arise in your hearts.

The Latin dictionary doesn't only say it's Satan:
#2
noun

  • declension: 2nd declension
  • gender: masculine
Definitions:
  1. bringer of light
  2. morning star, day star, planet Venus
#3
adjective
Definitions:

  1. light bringing
The Isaiah text can allegorically be used for Satan using the word "heylel" (Hebrew) but more specially being called the King of Babylon. This needs to be interpreted from the text and is not otherwise apparent. The 2 Peter text is far is not an allegory and phosphoros (Greek) or day star/morning star is a direct reference to Christ.
 
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Zao is life

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In reading a thread on whether or not our Lord Jesus Christ is actually St. Michael the Archangel (he isn’t), I came across this post, which I felt interesting enough to warrant a thread, as I believe, as did Martin Luther and John Calvin, that this is a grave mistake and also points to one of the few errors in the KJV translation, which is otherwise my favorite English edition of the Bible.



No it doesn’t. Luficer is a Latin word, and none of the Latin church fathers of the Patristic age, including those who interpreted Isaiah 14 as referring to Satan rather than Nebuchadnezzar, used the word Lucifer to refer to the devil.

In fact, there is a fourth century Christian saint named Lucifer! St. Lucifer of Cagliari was the Bishop of Cagliaria in Sardinia, who is venerated in Sardinia for his stance against the Arian heresy. And St. Jerome, the translator of the Vulgate, had a major beef with St. Lucifer over Origen, whom the Sardinian bishop admired and Jerome regarded as a heretic, but never took a low blow against St. Lucifer for that.

Lucifer was not an uncommon name among Romans and I recall reading of a Christian martyr in the second century who was also named Lucifer.

In the middle ages, Roman Catholic demonologists who only used the Vulgate Bible, which by the way does not use Lucifer as a proper noun, since the word literally is the Latin word for “morning star” and was translated correctly by St. Jerome, proposed that Lucifer was a proper name for Satan. Others took the view that Lucifer, Beezlebub and Satan were three different entities.

In the Canaanite religion and several other Semitic Pagan religions had a story of a god or goddess associated with the morning star trying to seize the throne of Baal and being cast down; in Canaanism the deity who attempted this, Attar, failing to assume the thrown of Baal, descended to and ruled the underworld. These stories are likely examples of how the devil spreads confusion by creating religions similiar to Nicene Christianity, or in its pre-incarnational form, the congregation of Israel, and these stories pop up centuries or millenia later to cause confusion. More recent examples of false religions superficially similiar to Christianity are the Bahai Faith, Unitarianism and the Unitarian Universalist Association, the New Church (Swedenborgianism), Spiritualism, the Moonies, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and worst of all, the People’s Temple (Jim Jones, of Jonestown, who poisoned the kool-aid).

So, Dante in his Inferno decided to call the devil Lucifer, and Milton, doubtless referencing that, in his work Paradise Lost employed the same name. Milton also was doubtless influenced by the one of the few major mistakes in the King James Version, which was the translation of “Morning Star” from the Hebrew into Lucifer, instead of “Morning Star”, a rare example of the King James translators departing from the principle of textual equivalence in favor of dynamic equivalence.

This error on the part of the KJV translators has been a disaster, because it has propagated the false belief that Isaiah 14 refers to the devil (due to Milton and Dante), which was rejected by both Martin Luther and John Calvin, not to mention a number of church fathers. It also makes no sense, because why translate from Hebrew into Latin? We can say for certain that even if Isaiah 14 does refer to the devil, Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but rather, a mere translation of the name.

Rather, if Luther, Calvin, and numerous church fathers are wrong, and Origen and Tertullian, both anathematized heretics, and the Bogomils and Cathars* (who were Gnostic heretics who also believed that the devil was named Lucifer), are right, then the most correct translation of this alleged original name of Satan would be Helel ben Shachar, because that is the phrase in Isaiah 14 translated as Lucifer. It certainly would not be a word from a language that the early Church did not even use in worship, or bother translating the Bible into, until the second century.**

I would note the only legitimate Church Father who was not a heretic who considered Isaiah 14 to refer to the devil was St. Augustine of Hippo, who was greatly admired by Luther and Calvin, who nonetheless disagreed with him on this and many other issues, but Augustine never referred to the devil as Lucifer. And why not? Because St. Augustine, being a scholar, would have read Isaiah as much from the Greek Septuagint as from the Vulgate, and also knew the Vulgate was not using Lucifer as a proper noun, but was a mere translation of the Hebrew. And St. Augustine had an even more compelling reason to not refer to the devil as Lucifer, more compelling than respect for St. Lucifero the Martyr and St. Lucifer the Bishop of Cagliari, the fact that John the Baptist and indeed our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ are referred to as the morning star in various ancient Latin hymns, thus, calling them Lucifer, including Aeterne rerum conditor a hymn written by St. Ambrose of Milan, which refers to our Lord Jesus Christ as the Morning Star, as Lucifer. St. Ambrose of Milan was St. Augustine’s mentor and catechist, who persuaded him to convert to Christianity from Manichaean Gnosticism, and who baptized him into the Church; the two great Latin fathers even wrote a hymn together, the famed Te Deum Laudamus, which is one of the most popular hymns and is also one of the canticles sung in Morning Prayer in the Church of England.

St. Hilary of Poitiers, another church father, who is considered along with St. Athanasius of Alexandria to be one of the two staunchest opponents of the heresy of Arius, who denied the deity of Jesus Christ and considered him a creature, wrote the hymn Lucis largitor splendide, which also refers to our Lord Jesus Christ as the Morning Star, in Latin, and thus as Lucifer, which St. Augustine would also have been familiar with, given that the Church during Augustine’s career as a writer in the 5th century regarded Athanasius of Alexandria and Hilary of Poitiers as heroes for their role in fighting Arianism, almost by themselves, during the dark years following the death of Emperor Constantine, when Arianism replaced Christianity as the state religion of the Roman Empire and Athanasius was exiled from his native Egypt to Trier, then the main base of the crumbling Western Empire’s increasingly unsuccessful military operations against invading Germanic tribes, and Hilary of Poitiers was his only deeply committed faithful friend and supporter who absolutely refused the idea of any compromise with the Arians.

In conclusion, based on the entirety of the evidence, we can say that Scripture does not reveal the original name of Satan to be Lucifer. It is possible his name was Helel ben Schahar, but not Lucifer, a Latin word referring to the Morning Star, which was used by two of the most pious Christians of the fourth century, St. Ambrose of Milan and St. Hilary of Poitiers, to refer to our lord and savior Jesus Christ, and a word which St. Augustine, the only orthodox Church Father who believed Isaiah 14 referred to the devil, and not Nebuchadnezzar, did not use when discussing that passage. Because indeed he was catechized and baptized by St. Ambrose, who did refer to our Lord as the Morning Star in a Latin hymn. Rather, as Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted, Isaiah 14 refers to Nebuchadnezzar and has nothing to do with our adversary the evil one, “the prince of the power of the air.”***

Does the devil even have a name? Satan, the accuser, is not really a name. Perhaps one could argue the evil one, having rejected God, has destroyed his person to the point where he has no name, only job descriptions.

* The Bogomils had a false Gnostic Gospel, which survives, in which the devil is referred to as Lucifer: Book of the Secret Supper - Wikipedia This book was adopted by the Cathars, who were Gnostics who abhorred marriage (a Cathar who received the Consolamenum and became a member of the Perfecti, their spiritual elite, as all who were unmarried were encouraged to do, vowed to not marry, as procreation was a sin in the Cathar faith, a view common to other Gnostic sects such as Manichaeanism.

** The Church in Rome worshipped in Greek until the reign of Archbishop Victor in the late second century AD, who, to reach the less educated Romans, the city’s poor, who did not know Greek, very commendably instituted Latin worship and commissioned the original Latin Bible, known today as the Vetus Latina. This translation was directly translated from the Greek Septuagint and the Greek New Testament and was written in exquisite Classical Latin, and phrases from it remain in use in Christian worship in the Western churches to this day, most notably, Gloria in Exclesis Deo. There were known errors in the Vetus Latina, and as a result St. Jerome was commissioned by his Archbishop of Rome (an office later styled as Pope), to translate a more accurate Latin Bible; Jerome did this, translating directly from Hebrew and Aramaic texts where they were available. His Vulgate is translated into the somewhat more vernacular Latin of the fourth century, which was already in the process of breaking up into four languages which would be the ancestors of French and Waloonian, Spanish and Portuguese, the numerous languages of Italy, and Romanian, Dalamatian and Arromanian. An example of the stylistic decline of the Vulgate vs. the Vetus Latina is demonstrated by it rendering “Glory to God in the Highest” as Gloria in Altissimus Deo, rather than Gloria in Excelsis Deo.

*** In some Eastern Orthodox monasteries, this is interpreted literally, and the brethren are strongly discouraged from gazing at the sky, because of the risk of falling into delusion due to the activities of the devil.
Lucifer is the ancient Latin name for Venus, the morning star. Hesperus the name for the evening star and the half brother of Phosphorus (also another name for the morning star) hence the original reason for any translation of "shining star, son of the morning" into "Lucifer".

I personally don't see a big issue with it but unfortunately the word Lucifer used as a name for the primary Adversary of God has led to a great deal of superstition.

What is needed is for Christians to be educated as to the difference between faith in facts (hence also faith in God) and superstition.
 
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The Liturgist

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So, what is your opinion on the serpent in the garden then? Isaiah speaks of "the cherub that covers" as being in the Garden of Eden and seems to imply that this is the one we know as "Lucifer" today. Would you say that was the serpent or the serpent was a representation of our evil inclination?

The serpent was Satan; everyone agrees this except for the 50,000 Karaite Jews who believe it was merely a cunning and intelligent snake. That could speak the language of humans. I have to consider I regard this particular Karaite doctrine to be ridiculous, a transparent attempt to plug a hole in their doctrinal consensus that there is no such thing as the devil, and in my mind undermines my confidence in the Karaite Kalaam, a system of logical analysis, as a tool for sola scriptura exegesis (the Karaite Jews believe in something like sola scriptura and reject the elaborate interpretations of the Old Testament found in the Talmud, the collection of legal interpretations and spiritual commentary of the Rabinnical Jews, who far outnumber the Karaites, although a millenium and two centuries ago Karaitism was extremely popular and comprised perhaps 40%, maybe even half, of the Jewish population, and some scholars believe the standard Hebrew Bible, the Masoretic Text, was originally compiled by Karaites.

Despite their bizarre interpretation of the serpent, and the obvious doctrinal error in their rejection of the devil, I love the Karaite Jews (the real ones, not the majority of Khazars, a Mongolian people who are not Halakhically Jewish but were converts who mostly apostasized; around 1900 a Khazar leader persuaded most of them to revert to their ancient pagan faith, and , which they had abandoned when they converted to Karaite Judaism some 900 years previously, around the same time St. Vladimir the Great’s envoys investigated the world’s monotheistic religions to help him select a new religion to replace Russian paganism (Rodnovery). His envoys had a profoundly spiritual experience at the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople so the Kievan Rus people became Eastern Orthodox. The Khazars, nearby, I believe discovered Karaite Judaism while in the same process, as some event occurred which shattered the faith of the people in Ukraine and Crimea, and the other territories that used to be called Scythia, in their various Pagan religions, and everyone converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, Karaite Judaism, Roman Catholicism and Sunni Islam. Why Shia Islam and Rabinnical Judaism did not get picked up, I couldn’t tell you, nor do I know why the Russians, Khazars and Dagestanis felt compelled to become monotheists.

During WWII, those Khazars who had abandoned Karaite Judaism in favor of paganism helped the SS by providing them with lists of their brethren who still practiced Judaism and also the Orthodox Jews, during the Nazi occupation of Crimea. I don’t know any Khazars today, and I should stress I do not hate them; I love everyone, its just that among non-Christian ethnoreligious groups I have a particular affection for the Karaites, in part because in the 20th century they have been terribly persecuted; they were forced to flee Egypt and Syria, where they had built beautiful synagogues, and those who have fledIsrael they have faced consistent discrimination from the Chief Rabbinate, for example, Karaite butchers can’t call themselves Kosher even though they follow the Kosher regulations as provided in the Old Testament, as opposed to the strange interpretation of those regularions found in the Talmud.

In the US, there is a single Karaite synagogue in Daly City, which I hope to visit some day Since the ISIS barbarians destroyed Dura Europos, the Karaite Synagogue is one of three synagogues I would like to visit, the other being the beautiful rebuilt Hurva synagogue in Jerusalem and the Paradesi Synagogue of the Kochin Jews in Kerala, India, whose presence in India since the fourth century helped the Apostle Thomas gain a foothold from which he converted many Hindus, before a Maharaja had his warriors kill St. Thomas with javelins in 53 AD).
 
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In reading a thread on whether or not our Lord Jesus Christ is actually St. Michael the Archangel (he isn’t)

I have never heard of Michael or any of the created angels called a saint.
 
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In reading a thread on whether or not our Lord Jesus Christ is actually St. Michael the Archangel (he isn’t), I came across this post, which I felt interesting enough to warrant a thread, as I believe, as did Martin Luther and John Calvin, that this is a grave mistake and also points to one of the few errors in the KJV translation, which is otherwise my favorite English edition of the Bible.



No it doesn’t. Luficer is a Latin word, and none of the Latin church fathers of the Patristic age, including those who interpreted Isaiah 14 as referring to Satan rather than Nebuchadnezzar, used the word Lucifer to refer to the devil.

In fact, there is a fourth century Christian saint named Lucifer! St. Lucifer of Cagliari was the Bishop of Cagliaria in Sardinia, who is venerated in Sardinia for his stance against the Arian heresy. And St. Jerome, the translator of the Vulgate, had a major beef with St. Lucifer over Origen, whom the Sardinian bishop admired and Jerome regarded as a heretic, but never took a low blow against St. Lucifer for that.

Lucifer was not an uncommon name among Romans and I recall reading of a Christian martyr in the second century who was also named Lucifer.

In the middle ages, Roman Catholic demonologists who only used the Vulgate Bible, which by the way does not use Lucifer as a proper noun, since the word literally is the Latin word for “morning star” and was translated correctly by St. Jerome, proposed that Lucifer was a proper name for Satan. Others took the view that Lucifer, Beezlebub and Satan were three different entities.

In the Canaanite religion and several other Semitic Pagan religions had a story of a god or goddess associated with the morning star trying to seize the throne of Baal and being cast down; in Canaanism the deity who attempted this, Attar, failing to assume the thrown of Baal, descended to and ruled the underworld. These stories are likely examples of how the devil spreads confusion by creating religions similiar to Nicene Christianity, or in its pre-incarnational form, the congregation of Israel, and these stories pop up centuries or millenia later to cause confusion. More recent examples of false religions superficially similiar to Christianity are the Bahai Faith, Unitarianism and the Unitarian Universalist Association, the New Church (Swedenborgianism), Spiritualism, the Moonies, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and worst of all, the People’s Temple (Jim Jones, of Jonestown, who poisoned the kool-aid).

So, Dante in his Inferno decided to call the devil Lucifer, and Milton, doubtless referencing that, in his work Paradise Lost employed the same name. Milton also was doubtless influenced by the one of the few major mistakes in the King James Version, which was the translation of “Morning Star” from the Hebrew into Lucifer, instead of “Morning Star”, a rare example of the King James translators departing from the principle of textual equivalence in favor of dynamic equivalence.

This error on the part of the KJV translators has been a disaster, because it has propagated the false belief that Isaiah 14 refers to the devil (due to Milton and Dante), which was rejected by both Martin Luther and John Calvin, not to mention a number of church fathers. It also makes no sense, because why translate from Hebrew into Latin? We can say for certain that even if Isaiah 14 does refer to the devil, Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but rather, a mere translation of the name.

Rather, if Luther, Calvin, and numerous church fathers are wrong, and Origen and Tertullian, both anathematized heretics, and the Bogomils and Cathars* (who were Gnostic heretics who also believed that the devil was named Lucifer), are right, then the most correct translation of this alleged original name of Satan would be Helel ben Shachar, because that is the phrase in Isaiah 14 translated as Lucifer. It certainly would not be a word from a language that the early Church did not even use in worship, or bother translating the Bible into, until the second century.**

I would note the only legitimate Church Father who was not a heretic who considered Isaiah 14 to refer to the devil was St. Augustine of Hippo, who was greatly admired by Luther and Calvin, who nonetheless disagreed with him on this and many other issues, but Augustine never referred to the devil as Lucifer. And why not? Because St. Augustine, being a scholar, would have read Isaiah as much from the Greek Septuagint as from the Vulgate, and also knew the Vulgate was not using Lucifer as a proper noun, but was a mere translation of the Hebrew. And St. Augustine had an even more compelling reason to not refer to the devil as Lucifer, more compelling than respect for St. Lucifero the Martyr and St. Lucifer the Bishop of Cagliari, the fact that John the Baptist and indeed our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ are referred to as the morning star in various ancient Latin hymns, thus, calling them Lucifer, including Aeterne rerum conditor a hymn written by St. Ambrose of Milan, which refers to our Lord Jesus Christ as the Morning Star, as Lucifer. St. Ambrose of Milan was St. Augustine’s mentor and catechist, who persuaded him to convert to Christianity from Manichaean Gnosticism, and who baptized him into the Church; the two great Latin fathers even wrote a hymn together, the famed Te Deum Laudamus, which is one of the most popular hymns and is also one of the canticles sung in Morning Prayer in the Church of England.

St. Hilary of Poitiers, another church father, who is considered along with St. Athanasius of Alexandria to be one of the two staunchest opponents of the heresy of Arius, who denied the deity of Jesus Christ and considered him a creature, wrote the hymn Lucis largitor splendide, which also refers to our Lord Jesus Christ as the Morning Star, in Latin, and thus as Lucifer, which St. Augustine would also have been familiar with, given that the Church during Augustine’s career as a writer in the 5th century regarded Athanasius of Alexandria and Hilary of Poitiers as heroes for their role in fighting Arianism, almost by themselves, during the dark years following the death of Emperor Constantine, when Arianism replaced Christianity as the state religion of the Roman Empire and Athanasius was exiled from his native Egypt to Trier, then the main base of the crumbling Western Empire’s increasingly unsuccessful military operations against invading Germanic tribes, and Hilary of Poitiers was his only deeply committed faithful friend and supporter who absolutely refused the idea of any compromise with the Arians.

In conclusion, based on the entirety of the evidence, we can say that Scripture does not reveal the original name of Satan to be Lucifer. It is possible his name was Helel ben Schahar, but not Lucifer, a Latin word referring to the Morning Star, which was used by two of the most pious Christians of the fourth century, St. Ambrose of Milan and St. Hilary of Poitiers, to refer to our lord and savior Jesus Christ, and a word which St. Augustine, the only orthodox Church Father who believed Isaiah 14 referred to the devil, and not Nebuchadnezzar, did not use when discussing that passage. Because indeed he was catechized and baptized by St. Ambrose, who did refer to our Lord as the Morning Star in a Latin hymn. Rather, as Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted, Isaiah 14 refers to Nebuchadnezzar and has nothing to do with our adversary the evil one, “the prince of the power of the air.”***

Does the devil even have a name? Satan, the accuser, is not really a name. Perhaps one could argue the evil one, having rejected God, has destroyed his person to the point where he has no name, only job descriptions.

* The Bogomils had a false Gnostic Gospel, which survives, in which the devil is referred to as Lucifer: Book of the Secret Supper - Wikipedia This book was adopted by the Cathars, who were Gnostics who abhorred marriage (a Cathar who received the Consolamenum and became a member of the Perfecti, their spiritual elite, as all who were unmarried were encouraged to do, vowed to not marry, as procreation was a sin in the Cathar faith, a view common to other Gnostic sects such as Manichaeanism.

** The Church in Rome worshipped in Greek until the reign of Archbishop Victor in the late second century AD, who, to reach the less educated Romans, the city’s poor, who did not know Greek, very commendably instituted Latin worship and commissioned the original Latin Bible, known today as the Vetus Latina. This translation was directly translated from the Greek Septuagint and the Greek New Testament and was written in exquisite Classical Latin, and phrases from it remain in use in Christian worship in the Western churches to this day, most notably, Gloria in Exclesis Deo. There were known errors in the Vetus Latina, and as a result St. Jerome was commissioned by his Archbishop of Rome (an office later styled as Pope), to translate a more accurate Latin Bible; Jerome did this, translating directly from Hebrew and Aramaic texts where they were available. His Vulgate is translated into the somewhat more vernacular Latin of the fourth century, which was already in the process of breaking up into four languages which would be the ancestors of French and Waloonian, Spanish and Portuguese, the numerous languages of Italy, and Romanian, Dalamatian and Arromanian. An example of the stylistic decline of the Vulgate vs. the Vetus Latina is demonstrated by it rendering “Glory to God in the Highest” as Gloria in Altissimus Deo, rather than Gloria in Excelsis Deo.

*** In some Eastern Orthodox monasteries, this is interpreted literally, and the brethren are strongly discouraged from gazing at the sky, because of the risk of falling into delusion due to the activities of the devil.
Interesting to think about. I highly doubt it matters if Lucifer is his true name or not as long as it accomplishes his goal in being worshipped.
 
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In the Bible we see that names are very important. It's through the name of Jesus that miracles can be performed and demons can be cast out. We see in the Bible that their is no other Name given to man for people to be saved so names as we see are important.

Acts 4:12

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.​


We also see that Satan seems to enjoy marking people with the name of the beast in the end times.


Revelation 14:11 (KJV)

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​
 
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Post your credentials to show why we should trust your opinion over biblical scholars and compilers of dictionaries. You have an idea in your head that cannot be proved which you believe in even after I have presented the facts from multiple sources derived from academic professionals who are qualified to define the meanings of words. for example the word Delusion.


Definition of delusion


1a: something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagatedunder the delusion that they will finish on scheduledelusions of grandeur
bpsychology : a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrarythe delusion that someone was out to hurt himalso : the abnormal state marked by such beliefs

Look, if you want to put your faith in the dictionary and peer-reviewed articles, that's up to you. As for me, I pray for understanding, read God's word, and come to the conclusions I feel God is leading me towards. Sometimes the answers are obvious, and sometimes they require digging deeper, but if you want a reference, I'll give you one that I hope will be acceptable to you for the next time you want to call a fellow Christian delusional for not having the same views as yourself.

Matthew 5:22 "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."
 
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