lucifer fell from heaven

[Lpspider]

Okay, where does this come from other than the passages in Isaiah and Ezekiel? Anywhere? And how do we know it is anything more than litteral (how do we know it's sybolic/metaphoric)?

 

[Macca]

Okay, where does this come from other than the passages in Isaiah and Ezekiel? Anywhere? And how do we know it is anything more than litteral (how do we know it's sybolic/metaphoric)?

Jesus said in Luke 10: 18 "I saw Satan falling from heaven as a flash of lightning!"
Holy Bible : New Living Translation. 1997 . Tyndale House: Wheaton, Ill.

 

[winsome]

Okay, where does this come from other than the passages in Isaiah and Ezekiel? Anywhere? And how do we know it is anything more than litteral (how do we know it's sybolic/metaphoric)?

Revelation 12:7-9
"And war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon. The dragon and his angels fought back, but they were defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. The great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him."

 

[Stan53]

There has been a suggestion that Gen 1:2 may apply here. It has to do with the correct translation of this verse. The correct translation is that the earth became void. Not as the KJV has it, that the earth was void. It has been suggested that this event was satan falling from heaven to earth. The suggestion was that the earth was originally perfect and that satan became corrupt and as a result God caste satan on to the earth. God then went on with the rest of creation and man then fell as a result of being tempted by satan.
I am not sure where I stand on that issue.
This I do believe though, after carefully looking at the hebrew translation, that the correct translation is that the earth became void.

 

[Optimax]

There has been a suggestion that Gen 1:2 may apply here. It has to do with the correct translation of this verse. The correct translation is that the earth became void. Not as the KJV has it, that the earth was void. It has been suggested that this event was satan falling from heaven to earth. The suggestion was that the earth was originally perfect and that satan became corrupt and as a result God caste satan on to the earth. God then went on with the rest of creation and man then fell as a result of being tempted by satan.
I am not sure where I stand on that issue.
This I do believe though, after carefully looking at the hebrew translation, that the correct translation is that the earth became void.

I have also come to believe this. Between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2 are millions, maybe even billions of “years”.
Consider these scriptures also with what is said above.

Isa 45:18

18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
KJV

Jer 4:23-28

23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
KJV

 

[Lpspider]

The issue with the person I'm discussing this with is that Revelations can't work because it hasn't happened yet and so on. And also that Satan can talk to God (I forget where, maybe Job) so he cannot have fallen from heaven.

πεσοντα is the "second aorist active form of the verb" in the original text. I believe this is the word for fall in the Luke 10:18 passage, and supposedly it would be grammatically incorrect to apply it Satan.

:/

 

[winsome]

The issue with the person I'm discussing this with is that Revelations can't work because it hasn't happened yet and so on. And also that Satan can talk to God (I forget where, maybe Job) so he cannot have fallen from heaven.

πεσοντα is the "second aorist active form of the verb" in the original text. I believe this is the word for fall in the Luke 10:18 passage, and supposedly it would be grammatically incorrect to apply it Satan.

:/

Revelations is a difficult book to understand. Some of it is about end times, but some of it seems to be about the now ( the now when it was written), or the past

For example the various messages of Jesus to the seven churches were about the state of them at that time, not the future.

The verses that preceed the ones I quoted were about the woman and the child and dragon. The woman and the child are taken to be Mary and Jesus, which clearly had already happened at that time. The dragon sweeping a third of the starts from the sky is normally taken to mean that one third of the angels fell with Satan.

 

[GeorgeE]

Lucifer by the tradition of the religious past has always been known as Satan. I see here is that there is a bit of a problem. SATAN'S ORIGIN and character of DARKNESS was spoken of by Jesus and should be enough to settle the querying minds of all, that he was never a shining angel of light.

He made it clear that he was a murderer from THE BEGINNING and concluded His statement by saying, "...And in the truth HE HAS NOT STOOD." Beginning means beginning of source, so how could he have been a messenger or Angel of God if he was a murderer or liar from the beginning.

John. 8:44; 44 </SPAN>Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

(I John. 3:8, He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

there is no honest way we can say Satan was ever a glorious, shining, angel of light with the name of Lucifer. If this be true, how then, can

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

speaking of Satan? It is not likely that it is.

The Devil was a liar from the beginning, not an angel in the beginning. It was Adam (Adam was a son of God) who fell, not Satan.

 

[NeoScribe]

huh?

 

[SonicBOOM]

Okay, where does this come from other than the passages in Isaiah and Ezekiel? Anywhere? And how do we know it is anything more than litteral (how do we know it's sybolic/metaphoric)?

Jesus himself states that he saw Satan fall like a falling star from heaven, he was giving his witness of what happened, well according to theologens which I agree with on this one.

 

[winsome]

Lucifer by the tradition of the religious past has always been known as Satan. I see here is that there is a bit of a problem. SATAN'S ORIGIN and character of DARKNESS was spoken of by Jesus and should be enough to settle the querying minds of all, that he was never a shining angel of light.

He made it clear that he was a murderer from THE BEGINNING and concluded His statement by saying, "...And in the truth HE HAS NOT STOOD." Beginning means beginning of source, so how could he have been a messenger or Angel of God if he was a murderer or liar from the beginning.

John. 8:44; 44</SPAN>Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

(I John. 3:8, He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

there is no honest way we can say Satan was ever a glorious, shining, angel of light with the name of Lucifer. If this be true, how then, can

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

speaking of Satan? It is not likely that it is.

The Devil was a liar from the beginning, not an angel in the beginning. It was Adam (Adam was a son of God) who fell, not Satan.

Do you mean God created Satan evil ?

 

[JimfromOhio]

We have holy angels and fallen angels. The fallen angels were holy angels, they all fell at the same time, they were all cast down. And one-third of all the angels fell according to Revelation 12, it says, "When the dragon fell he took one third of the stars with him." So there are two-third holy angels and one third fallen angels. Lucifer fell from Heaven due to pride. Pride also will lead people to hell. Lucifer fell because of his pride and became Satan. It was pride that made him fell. Desire to be equal or be like God is PRIDE. When Lucifer (who became Satan) sinned due to pride: "I will cast off God's rule. I am too great to be bound by it. I shall declare myself autonomous. I will be like the Most High" (Isaiah 14:14) Pride is the primary heart of the sin. C.S. Lewis once said "It makes us all want to be more than we are or can be and, consequiently, causes to fall short of the great destiny for which we were created.

James 2:19 (New International Version)
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that&#8212;and shudder.

Isaiah 14:12
How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

 

[GeorgeE]

Do you mean God created Satan evil ?

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the
LORD do all these things.


Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid?
shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (KJV)


All things were created and by God including evil. and Satan. Satan has no power unless God ordains it; if that was not the case then Satan would be more powerful.

 

[cobweb]

We had a topic a few days ago on Lucifer.

http://www.christianforums.com/t3018710-lucifer.html

Hope that helps.

 

[GeorgeE]

To lengthy to print the whole scripture.
Genesis 2:8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the MAN whom he had formed.

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering-----------in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth -----15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Is 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven O Lucifer, son of the morning!------13 For thou hast said in thine heart (mind) I will ascend into heaven, ---- 14 I will belike the most High, 15 yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit, -----16----Is this the MAN that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms------.
Now the religious system teaches that Ez 28:13 and

Is 14:12 are speaking of Satan and the KJ Bible is the only version that uses the word Lucifer. It is not even a Hebrew word.
Moffat translation says "What a fall from heaven O Shining star of the dawns" Rotherham"How hast thou fallen from heaven, O shining One, son of the dawn!"Amplified "how are you fallen from heaven O light-bearer and day star, son of the morning!"

2 Pet 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.
Rev 22:16 I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these thing sin the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

The word Lucifer in the Strong's Concordance says it is a title applied to the king of Babylon. The word itself means the morning star. In the natural it is speaking of a King and in the spiritual it is speaking of Adam. The word MAN means a mortal, an individual, a male person. I could rest my case on just that one verse alone, but why would Peter under the direction of the Holy Spirit compare Jesus as the Day star with Lucifer the Devil? It is the erroneous translation of the KJ that infers such.
Lucifer was never an Arc Angel, he was a MAN. (Satan is a spirit.)

Is14:15 says he was brought down to hell, (sheol, place of the dead) the side of the pit. Satan is never thrown in the grave because he has no part in a natural death as he is a spiritual being. Only MAN dies and is placed in a grave. Evil spirits only go to a place called Tartarus and Satan the high ranking one is sent to the lake of fire.( which is not hell)

When Adam was placed in Eden he was perfect. When Adam fell he fell from a lofty realm. He was cast out of that realm. Adam because of the fall caused Kingdoms to shake and made the world as a wilderness. The fall brought us down into this realm of vanity. Adam was the1st Adam and Jesus is the last Adam.

Even the Jews knew the true name of Satan. They called him Beelzebub. Satan was created a tool

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy. (See God created Satan)
Jesus in Jn 8:44 Said Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the BEGINNING and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. John writes in

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil..
I cannot see that Satan had two beginnings. The word beginning in the Greek means beginning. Not first he was an angel, second he was a murder and liar. Which one was he? Do we take the RCC's translation or do we take the correct translation of the word Lucifer?

In the beginning Man was full of light and Satan was full of darkness. God is not working on a plan B. He has had a plan and a purpose from the beginning and Satan was a part of that plan. Simply a tool. Never an angel.

This is my stand and I feel that you have a choice to believe the word of God or to accept a false doctrine made up in the minds of religious men.

 

[Lpspider]

hate to dig up this older thread, but...

How can I clearly show that in the Ezekiel passage it's reffering to Satan rather than the King of Tyre?

 

[icxn]

hate to dig up this older thread, but...

How can I clearly show that in the Ezekiel passage it's reffering to Satan rather than the King of Tyre?

If you can show how St. Paul interprets the treading ox as himself and the Apostles, then you can find the answer to your question. If not, at least you can acknowledge that those who are initiated into the allegories of scripture can do so.

For it is written in the law of Moses, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain." Is it for oxen that God is concerned? Does he not speak entirely for our sake? (1 Cor. 9:9-10)
​

 

[hlaltimus]

Okay, where does this come from other than the passages in Isaiah and Ezekiel? Anywhere? And how do we know it is anything more than litteral (how do we know it's sybolic/metaphoric)?

The main reason why sane thinkers have always balked at the thought of Satan "falling from heaven" is for the simple reason that such a view would tend to undermine any confidence one would have in the integrity of that realm, heaven. If it wasn't safe for those angels, then why will it be safe for me? This problem disappears when once one understands that Lucifer didn't fall from the third heavens but from the second. There were two classes of angels, both mentioned in Job 38:7 - "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" - and the ones who fell didnot fall from the eternally perfect heavens but from our universe, though perfect at the time. "Sons of God" could not possibly mean the human race as verses 4-6 of Job 38 are obviously talking about the creation of this Earth and so disqualified Adam from being one of those "Sons of God" with a rebuttal of "Where wast thou...?" from the Lord. Nor is the term "Morning stars" applicable to humanity as Adam the first was truly a terrestrial creature and not a celestial one as the word "star" implies. Lucifer was created a perfect being, but a perfectly mutable being in a likewise perfect but mutable universe. It, they and we all fell. This change worked for the worse for that world of angels and us, but still allows for a change back towards God's original perfect purpose, thankfully.