Lucifer and Satan:two differnt beings??

[LittleLambofJesus]

I agree, the opponent(s) of the "Devil" (and any and all of a state of mind adverse to them) would be the apostles, and "a Satan" to them, just as Peter was at one point to Jesus.

Your last quote even describes Peter's adversar(ies) as a roaring lion. If we are to assume Satan or the Devil is a living ghost of some kind, we might just as well jump off this verse and think of him as a lion.

But both ideas transfer the accountability of a man for his own actions - in denying his own carnal, adversarial nature - to some imaginary entity instead. This is what this immature traditional doctrine does, it allows people to say "The Devil made me do it." This has always proved to be a profitable point of doctrine for the church, however, because people want some "ghost" to blame, and they want preachers to help them do that.

Moreover, without such an imaginary entity to blame , preachers would have to look around at the real world and explain with truth about why and how evil work it's way out of the hearts of men through the operations of society and into positions of political power. No preacher in recent times has been able to make a living telling people things like that. Lies are a much more profitable business, and nobody gets fingered for their abuses of power in the world. The preachers, thereby, become confederate with the very "Devil" himself. They sell them their own soul for a cheap thrill of authority and prestige and power over the ignorant faithful.

.

I would agree and also add it is the preachers/mininsters/priests that will be held accountable for false preaching since they are suppose to interpret the Word for the "Flock" in order not to be led astray.
Wasn't Cain the first Murderer?

John 8:44 `Ye out of/ek <1537> a father of the/tou <3588> Devil/diabolou <1228> are/este <2075>, and the desires/lusts of the father of ye, ye are willing to be doing;

Matt 23:27 `Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye are like to whitewashed sepulchres, which outwardly indeed do appear beautiful, and within are full of dead/nekrwn <3498> bones, and of all uncleanness;

Revelation 18:13 and cinnamon, and odours, and ointment, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and cattle, and sheep, and of horses, and of chariots, and of bodies/swmatwn <4983> and souls of men/anqrwpwn <444>

 

[Merciel]

Okay, I assume you are thinking this messenger (the definition of the term, angel) may have been some kind of super-man like creature , rather than human. Am I following you?

If he were all powerful, though, why does he tell Peter to get up quickly? They might get caught?

No matter what a person makes of his passage, it does not change the definition of the term, angel. And I agree that it may be easy to associate this scenario with some sort of mythical-like all powerful creature, and all the more so if someone has had some exposure to medieval concepts and imagery of Christian mythology.

Personally, I have always left such things to the imagination of others.

Nobody's saying that angels are all powerful. Powerful, yes, but not all powerful. Just because the angel tells Peter to hurry does not mean he's any less of a celestial being.

John 8:59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

According to that verse, Jesus hid himself. In other words, God hid just like a normal human being would.

 

[Libre]

We may not understand what type of being the devil is, but the Bible treats him like a person or entity. When we take the step of deciding that he is not an entity, but is just a force or the result of being away from God, or whatever, we may open ourselves up to deception. The Bible says the devil has wiles.

An angel is a spirit being. God is a spirit. And when the Bible speaks of devils and Satan as beings, then they probably are. To mythologize them leads to the type of theology that debunks everything that is spiritual, which eventually includes our own salvation, for it is spiritual regeneration that we are speaking of. The very definition of what salvation is about. IMO.

Evey time I deal with those who don't believe the devil is real, I find they end up in what is generally called apostasy. It sneaks up on you. Believing there is a real devil or adversary is not part and parcel to the apostle's doctrine, it is true. But these beliefs usually end up in gnosticism, which is condemned by the apostles. Or some other heresy. They are not new, and seem to never go away. Not till He comes again, anyway.

Satan may not be Lucifer. He may not even be an angel, but some other type of being. But we shouldn't explain him away just because we don't understand.

Libre

 

[spirit1st]

satan is an angel who is a spirit and has power.he was once a mighty angel

Dan 10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.


Dan 10:19 And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.
Dan 10:20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Greece shall come.

Isa 37:36 Then the angel of the LORD went forth, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians a hundred and fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.

 

[BethelArsonist]

What in the world is a celestial being? An astronaut?

Libre, To believe what is "written" is carnal and living in the physical. To discover what is taught and why teaching must grow and change as does man is to realize the progression and value of prophetic scripture and meanings and to be spiritual. These two are always at odds. Man is doomed to cease to exist if he should forever refrain from allowing the Word of God to grow inside of him and with him. This is the true meaning of being spiritual and of having the living word of God.

 

[Merciel]

What in the world is a celestial being? An astronaut?

An angel in the "messenger from Heaven" sense. Such as Michael, the archangel.

Jude 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

 

[BethelArsonist]

Okay. Like Angel of the Lord. They are often seen to do incredible things.

The root term of evangelist is also angel. It appears right in the middle.

Ya know, another time Jesus hid was after being asked "Who is the son of man?" I think this means there is a hidden answer. to that.

 

[Merciel]

Okay. Like Angel of the Lord. They are often seen to do incredible things.

The root term of evangelist is also angel. It appears right in the middle.

Indeed. Angel is a very broad term that can describe a variety of messengers. I believe some of those messengers are the type that we usually think of when we think of "angels."

 

[BethelArsonist]

Angel is one of a number of words I have often struggled with understanding, looking for a more believable meaning, mainly because that could increase my faith, for things to be more beleivable. The unbelievability of traditional doctrine today, I think does the work of ministry much harm in that regard. I find much doctrine of scripture to be much more believable than doctrine of church.

 

[Merciel]

Angel is one of a number of words I have often struggled with understanding, looking for a more believable meaning, mainly because that could increase my faith, for things to be more beleivable. The unbelievability of traditional doctrine today, I think does the work of ministry much harm in that regard. I find much doctrine of scripture to be much more believable than doctrine of church.

I definitely don't agree with many of the mainstream beliefs. Among other things, I'm absolutely positive Revelation was written about the destruction of Jerusalem and not about some Left Behind like apocalypse, and I wish people taught that as I think it really shows just how valid Christianity is. However, I still think there are many things about Christianity that can seem pretty unbelievable (Jesus the God/man dying and coming back to life, for example)

 

[Libre]

I certainly agree about Revelation. All this future nonsense is totally distracting the purpose of the church on earth.

However, when it comes to the death and resurrection of Jesus, the gospels are not writings with hidden meanings like the apocalyptic books. One does, however, have to come to this belief by faith.

Matthew 16:13-20 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, [SIZE=-1]F32[/SIZE] and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Peter's declaration of faith is the rock - not Peter himself. And the church is built on that declaration. Jesus was saying that such belief does not come by our own reasoning, but is revealed by God through the Holy Spirit. And believe me when I say that once you have met the Lord of glory, Jesus, you have no problem believing what is written about him in the gospels. My prayer is that God reveals His truth about this to you.

Libre

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I definitely don't agree with many of the mainstream beliefs. Among other things, I'm absolutely positive Revelation was written about the destruction of Jerusalem and not about some Left Behind like apocalypse, and I wish people taught that as I think it really shows just how valid Christianity is. However, I still think there are many things about Christianity that can seem pretty unbelievable (Jesus the God/man dying and coming back to life, for example)

It looks more like a change of "OC/NC Priesthoods" to a lot of others, including me.

Matthew 24:1 And having gone forth, Jesus departed from the Temple/ierou <2411>, and his Disciples came near to show him the buildings of the Temple/ierou <2411>,

Hebrews 7:12 For the Priesthood/ierwsunhV <2420> being changed, of necessity there is also a change of Law.

Reve 11:2 and, the Court [Court of High Priest/Altar of Burnt Offerings?] the one without the Sanctuary[#3485],be you Casting Out!! [#1544 ek-bale] out-side,[exw #1854] and you should not be measuring, that,it was given unto the nations/eqnesin <1484> , and, the city, the holy, they shall be treading forty and two months

http://www.christianforums.com/t2450494&page=5
Moses Tabernacle and God's Plan of Redemption

 

[lokt]

BA, Yahushua was addressing Peter and calling him satan because Peter had allowed himself to be beguiled by satan, just as Eve had. Peter did not beguile himself, however that does not mean he is not culpable.
As you mentioned, "the devil made me do it" is no excuse.
Notice what Peter was saying, he basically was trying to talk Yahushua out of dying. Why?
Satan knew what was going to happen at Golgotha, after all he knows scripture better than most. And he knew that it would mean curtains/ultimate defeat for his gameplan. That's why he used Peter in an attempt to stop it.
Satan knows who Yahushua is-Yahuweh. Remember when Satan tempted Yahushua to turn the stones into bread?
We would'nt be tempted as such because only Yahuweh can do such a thing. That would be a non-temptation for us. Satan would'nt waste his time/efforts trying to get us to do something we could'nt.
Yahushua's temptation was no "state of mind". He has no carnal nature/animal impulse that needs to be "tamed" and He certainly was not tempting himself.
Your notion that satan is a state of mind falls flat when one considers the facts of Yahushua's temptation.
He was tempted by a very real, extant being. There's no getting around that fact. There is no way of construing metaphor or symbolism as Yahushua was tempted to do something only Yahuweh can do.

And btw, what is your criteria for determining whether prophecy informs of real events or is symbolic?

 

[spirit1st]

THE lord NEVER called PETER satan.he was talking to satan who was still there .no one could see him ,but the LORD.satan put the dumb thought in Peters mind and Peter spoke it!
satan puts thoughts in all mankinds minds.Just as the LORD does!
we decide which to live?
We can rebuke satan and tell him to get going and take your dumb thoughts with you in the name of JESUS CHRIST!

 

[Ben12]

Satan was never an Angel called Lucifer; he was a liar and a murderer from the beginning; that means Satan&#8217;s beginning. SATAN'S ORIGIN and character of DARKNESS was spoken of by Jesus and should be enough to settle the querying minds of all, that he was never a shining angel of light. He made it clear that he was a murderer from THE BEGINNING and concluded His statement by saying, "...And in the truth HE HAS NOT STOOD." (Jn. 8:44; Diaglott, Westcott & Hort, and Marshall's Interlinear Grk/Eng N.T.). If he has NEVER STOOD IN THE LIGHT OF THE TRUTH, and also, if he "...HAS BEEN SINNING FROM
THE BEGINNING," as John recorded (I Jn. 3:8, Diaglott), there is no honest way we can say Satan was ever a glorious, shining, angel of light with the name of Lucifer. If this be true, how then, can Isa. 14:12 be speaking of Satan? It is not likely that it is.

Don't worry about whether or not the devil is behind a certain thing. Attribute everything to God's control and the devil will lose his power over you. When adversity comes, don't think about how strong the devil is; think about what God is teaching you through it. Our adversary, the devil, cannot do anything to us unless God wants him to. Fear of what may happen, and ignorance of God's sovereign control combine together to rob us of true peace. Ephesians 4:27 says, "neither give place to the devil." Not many in Christendom know the peace of having their minds guarded by a knowledge of God's intimate sovereign control over Satan's activities. The harlot Babylon (falsely called "Christianity") has plagued us with ideas about Satan's power that has kept us occupied fighting a war that doesn't even exist.

Proverbs 11:9 says, "Through knowledge shall the just be delivered." The Hebrew word "delivered" means, "drawn out, armed and fortified." Learning about God's intimate sovereign control over all negative activities will draw us out of Babylon's bondage and arm and fortify our minds to face them victoriously.

Neither God nor truth need any defense, for God's sovereign control is total all of the time. When Jesus said (Matthew 28:18), "All power is given unto Me in heaven and on earth," He meant "ALL" power. That includes the power of the adversary. When we see God in everything, we will be able to face up to the temporary triumph of evil, for we will know that God is in control. Jesus said, "I can do nothing of Myself." And I declare unto you, neither can Satan. He has no power of his own. Jesus said to Satan, "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and Him only shalt thou serve." This was not just a command. It was also a prophecy. God will see to it that everything that Satan has done will redound to God's glory, and eventually even Satan himself will bow in loving worship before God.
The Adversary has been divinely placed by God, the Placer, to try us. Isaiah 63:17 tells us that it is God Himself Who causes us to err from His ways, and it is He Who hardens our heart. And Isaiah 66:4 tells us that it is God Himself Who chooses the delusions we get into. We can't even fall into a false cult of our own "free will," for it is God Who causes us to fall. God will involve us in the false cult that He can use the most to process us and fit us into our special place within His master-plan

God is always in total control, always in total intimate sovereign control over everyone and every circumstance. Paul said, "There is only one God, the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by Whom are ALL things. Howbeit, there is not in every man that knowledge." 1 Corlnthians 8:6. God will lead everyone into an understanding of this truth according to His own perfect timing. Sooner or later He will reveal to everyone that He alone is in control, and He will end the duality of division that is in most minds.

When we learn that all powers are regulated by God, it will change the negatives in our life into positives. If you think that you of yourself can contribute to beginning and sustaining your salvation, then you yourself have become an adversary to God. Believing in two sources of salvation is just as double minded as believing in two sources of evil. In both cases you are partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Although Satan doesn't know it yet, he is a co-labourer with God in the development of God's plan for the ages.

There is no ultimate loss for anyone, because God controls the destiny of everyone. The Greek word for dammed means "to be judged." To be damned means to enter a process
of judgement unto purification.

God only allows to happen that which He intends to work into good for everyone. At no time has God ever relinquished control of anyone. God is in intimate sovereign control over everyone all of the time. He always has been, and He always will be. Anything that is not built on the foundation of the sovereignty of God will eventually collapse and be destroyed.

Satan will temporarily be cast into a bottomless pit. Since there is no bottom he will not be able to build a foundation of any sort, and he will have to acknowledge that there is no foundation but Jesus Christ and of God. Jesus said, "The prince of this world cometh, and he hath nothing in Me. For Satan, Jesus was a bottomless pit, and so shall we all become according to God's timing. The sooner we acknowledge God's sovereignty, the sooner we will become a bottomless pit to Satan and the entire negative realm. Negative influences will flail the air, but they won't find a resting place in us.

 

[BethelArsonist]

lokt,

I am sorry that I just cannot side with the idea that satan is a real 'supernatural' entity. Part of my reasons for that have to do with my understanding of other subjects of scriptural study that are far too remote from this subject to involve here.

Would you be happy to agree with me simply to disagree on this subject and leave it at that?

I have enjoyed the debate.

No offense taken, and none intended.

'kay?

 

[lokt]

BA, sounds like a plan to me.

Ben, your implication is that Yahuweh created satan to be evil since satan was evil from the begining.
Can't buy it.

 

[lokt]

The "Rock" is not Peter, nor is it his faith. The "Rock" is Yahushua.

"His defense against these burdens shall remain (yashab - dwell and abide) perpetually (&#8216;eythan - eternally flowing), freed of imperfections and unwanted burdens (pazaz - refined showing agility) by (min - out of or because of) the sacrificial lamb (zarow&#8217;a - the arms and shoulders which bear burdens) and hands (yad - power, strength and support) of the Mighty One (&#8216;abiyr) of Ya&#8217;aqob, out of (min) whom there will be seen (sam) a Shepherd (ra&#8217;ah - a companion and friend, the best man), the Rock who reestablishes (&#8216;eben - the stone, from banah, meaning the one who rebuilds) Yisra&#8217;el (those who live with and are empowered by God) - out of (min) &#8216;el/God the Father (&#8216;ab - the Head of the household and family) who shall help and support you (&#8216;azar - strengthen, empower, and assist you, accomplishing the task), by the Almighty (shadday) who kneels down (barak) presenting a gift (barakah - blessings of peace, relationship, and prosperity as a present) from (min - out of) heaven to a special position that is close by (&#8216;al - to a place which is near), blessed gifts which stretch out from (rabas) the bosom (shad), blessed gifts from the depths (tahowm) of the womb (rechem)." (Genesis 49:24-26)

And again, "Listen to Me, you who pursue vindication, deliverance, justification, and truthfulness (tsedeq - being right with God), you who seek to find, desire, and require (baqas) Yahuweh: Look to and regard (nabat - gaze upon, observe, and consider expectantly) the Rock (tsuwr) you were hewn from (haseb - the stone mason who separated you), and to the pierced (maqebet - hammered and perforated with holes bored in) cistern (bowr - well cut out of stone which contains water) by whom you were cut out in great pain (naqar - quarried)." (Isaiah 51:1)

And again, "By the greatness and magnitude (gadowl) of Your sacrificial Lamb (zarow&#8217;a), they [the Lord/Ba&#8217;al serving adversaries] will be silenced (damam). Now and forever (&#8216;ad - eternally and continually throughout time) the Rock (&#8216;eben - the stone which establishes and restores) passes over (&#8216;abar) the family (&#8216;am) of Yahuweh, eternally (&#8216;ad) passing over (&#8216;abar) the family (&#8216;am) whom (zu) You acquired by purchasing them in a redemptive act (qanah)." (Exodus 15:13)

And btw, you need to read this very closely. Yahushua was indeed calling Peter satan because at that moment Peter was filling in as Satans stead.

"The time came for the Messiah Yahushua to show (deiknuo - to expose by providing evidence and proof to) His disciples that it was necessary and beneficial (dei) to go to Hierosoluma (a Greek transliteration of the city now called Jerusalem) to suffer much and often from the Presbyteros (Elders who were politicized religious leaders), the Archiereus (High Priests who were rabbis at the top of a hierarchal religious system), and the Grammateus (writers and public servants [read journalists, judges, and politicians]), and to be killed and then arise on the third day. Petros took Him by the hand to lead Him aside (proslambano) and began to rule over Him (archo), chiding, rebuking, and censuring Him (epitimao - admonishing Him sharply, denouncing Him and expressing his strong disapproval), saying to thine own self be merciful, cheerful and happy (hileos soi) sir. This must never, never (ou me) happen (eimi - come to be). But He turned around and said to Petros, &#8216;Withdraw your presence (hypago) and get behind Me Satanas/Adversary. You are an impediment and a trap (skandalon - a snare which serves as a trigger for a ambush; a rock which causes someone to stumble and fall; an obstacle in opposition and an offense) to Me because you don&#8217;t understand, don&#8217;t regard, and haven&#8217;t the right attitude toward (phroneo - you&#8217;re not directing your mind to contemplate) the things of TS (placeholder for &#8216;Elohiym). On the contrary (allah - in opposition in a transition to the antithesis) you regard the things of man (anthropos).&#8217;" (Matthew 16:21-23)

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Satan "like a roaring lion" seeks who he may devour.

I once gave a speech on this subject. I titled it "Roaring Lions and the Seven Laws of Success." I used the events described in the story, "Maneaters of Tsavo", which related how two man-eating lions terrorized a stretch of railroad in Africa near the turn of the century, displaying unbelievable ingenuity, resourcefulness, persistance, to illustrate how smart and devious Satan really is. The two lions killed and ate dozens of people over a period of several years.

It's a good read and really shows how effective lions can become at 'devouring who they may'. And by the way, lions and their behaviour were created by God. This and other vicious animal behavior is rarely discussed by christians. We tend to look the other way, not wanting to admit that God might have a 'dark' side.

Regarding Lucifer and Satan. If Lucifer became Satan, and Satan was a murderer from the beginning, then at the instant the transformation occurred the change in character occurred. In other words Lucifer wasn't a murderer or liar until he was changed into Satan. So to say that because Lucifer wasn't a murderer from the beginning he couldn't have become Satan is illogical. He wasn't a murderer until God made him so by changing him from the 'light bringer' to the 'adversary'. So from Satan's beginning he was made into a liar and murderer by God. The one known as 'Lucifer' ceased to exist at that instant.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Satan "like a roaring lion" seeks who he may devour.

I once gave a speech on this subject. I titled it "Roaring Lions and the Seven Laws of Success." I used the events described in the story, "Maneaters of Tsavo", which related how two man-eating lions terrorized a stretch of railroad in Africa near the turn of the century, displaying unbelievable ingenuity, resourcefulness, persistance, to illustrate how smart and devious Satan really is. The two lions killed and ate dozens of people over a period of several years.

It's a good read and really shows how effective lions can become at 'devouring who they may'. And by the way, lions and their behaviour were created by God. This and other vicious animal behavior is rarely discussed by christians. We tend to look the other way, not wanting to admit that God might have a 'dark' side.

Regarding Lucifer and Satan. If Lucifer became Satan, and Satan was a murderer from the beginning, then at the instant the transformation occurred the change in character occurred. In other words Lucifer wasn't a murderer or liar until he was changed into Satan. So to say that because Lucifer wasn't a murderer from the beginning he couldn't have become Satan is illogical. He wasn't a murderer until God made him so by changing him from the 'light bringer' to the 'adversary'. So from Satan's beginning he was made into a liar and murderer by God. The one known as 'Lucifer' ceased to exist at that instant.

Interesting post. The word used for "Devil" is interesting as he would essentially be called a "thru-caster" according to the Greek.
Interesting also that greek word for "opponent" in 1 Peter seems to be "instead of righteous" which Jesus and Paul referred the Jewish rulers/priests as.
Thoughts?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, vigilant, because your opponent/anti-dikoV <476> the devil/dia-boloV <1228>, as a roaring lion, doth walk about, seeking whom he may swallow up,

Luke 13:28 `There shall be there the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth, when ye may see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the reign of God, and yourselves being cast out/ek-ballo-menouV <1544> without/exw <1854>;

Matthew 24:14 and this Good News of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in all the "world"/oiko-umenh <3625>, for a Testimony to all the Nations; and then shall the End arrive.