Love and Self control

[k4c]

Please point out my 'comment that was a cheap shots (sic).' Thanks.

Or is this a distraction technique in order to avoid addressing the scriptures presented?

In CHRIST alone...

Your cheap shots are the words you use that accuse me of avoiding and refusing to answer your question as though I'm trying to hide something or that I'm presenting something that I can't prove. I know that spirit very well and try to avoid it because it's really not looking for answers. But just for the sake of truth I will repost the answer that you refuse to accept as an answer.

YOUR LENGTHY QUESTION

Originally Posted by freeindeed2

I'd like to ask you to address the passages I referred to and then I'll respond to what you wrote above and the passage you're using.

2 Cor. 3:7-18

"Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry righteousness must far exceed it in glory.

Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.

Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit."
​

Observations:

• The ministry of death is carved in letters on stone.
• It came with glory and Israel could not gaze at Moses' face.
• It's glory was being brought to an end.
• The ministry of the Spirit has even more glory?
• There was glory in the ministry of condemnation.
• The ministry of righteousness far exceeds the ministry of condemnation.
• What once had glory has no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it.
• What once had glory was being brought to an end, even though it came with glory.
• The ministry of the Spirit and ministry of righteousness is permanent and has more glory.
• Moses put a veil over his face so that Israel couldn't see that the glory of the letters engraved on stone was being brought to an end.
• Their minds were hardened.
• To this day when they read the old covenant (letters engraved on stone) the veil remains.
• Only through Christ is the veil taken away.
• Whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts.
• BUT in turning to the Lord, the veil is removed.
• The Lord is Spirit
• Where the Spirit of the Lord is, is also freedom.
• Once the veil is removed we behold the glory of the Lord and are being transformed into the same image.
• This comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

It is worth noting verse 6: "But our sufficiency is from God, (6) who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." (Emphasis mine.)

It sounds to me like you're trying to combine the 'killing letters' with the 'life-giving Spirit'? The new covenant is not of the letter but of the Spirit. The old covenant IS the letters engraved on stone (stored in the ark of the covenant). Both had glory, one was being brought to an end, the other lasts forever. The law had a beginning and an end.

"This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise." Gal. 3:17-18
​

The law 'began' 430 years after Abraham, and that covenant did not annul the promises God made to Abraham. Verse 19:

"Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made," (v. 16 clearly identifies the 'offspring' as Christ).
​

The law was 'added', again showing a beginning point, because of transgressions. Moving on (v.21).

"Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law."
​

This is the same contrast we see in 2 Cor. 3. The law (letters on stone) could not give life (it's a ministry of death), but the ministry of righteousness does (letter kills, Spirit gives life). Righteousness exists apart from the law.

v. 22-24 "But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith."
​

The law imprisoned and held captive those who were under it. It acted as a guardian UNTIL Christ came. It's an ending point, which is why to the Corinthian churches Paul used language like 'being brought to an end'. It started 430 years after Abraham and acted as a guardian (schoolmaster) UNTIL Christ...SO THAT we can be justified by faith in Christ.

v. 25-27 "But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
​

We are no longer under 'a guardian', the law, BECAUSE in Christ we are already sons of God through faith in what HE did. We have put on Christ.

The passage goes on to clarify that we are ONE in Christ and heirs according to promise.

So, by what you've presented, you are saying that the ministry of the Spirit is somehow combined with the ministry of death, that the letter that kills is combined with the Spirit that gives life, that what was being brought to an end is combined with that which lasts,? Would you say that even though Gal. 3 shows a beginning and an end to the law, that the law acted as a guardian imprisoning and holding captive those under it, and that we are no longer under the guardian but have put on Christ, that it was all done so that we could still be under the guardian, ministry of death, ministry of condemnation, and letter that kills, just in Christ? Do you believe that the new covenant is just the old covenant all over again?

I would love to hear your thoughts and how you would address the actual words in the passages above. I used the ESV. I'll get to the Romans 7 passage later. I've got to run for now.

In CHRIST alone...
​

MY ANSWER

Old Covenant = law written in stone.
Exodus 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

New Covenant = law written on heart.
Hebrews 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days,'' says the Lord, "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Old Covenant = law governed the actions of man.
Leviticus 20:10`The man who commits adultery with another man's wife, he who commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress, shall surely be put to death.

New Covenant = law governs the inward/thoughts man.
Matthew 5:28 "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Old Covenant = law kept by the power of the flesh.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,

New Covenant = law kept by the power of the Spirit.
Ezekiel 11:19-20 "Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, "that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

The Spirit of God works in conjuction with the law of God.
John 16:7-8 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

HERE IS ANOTHER ONE

Originally

Posted by k4c

We do have a righteousness act of our own the difference is that God does not accept our righteousness. For example, two people serving in a soup kitchen, both doing the same exact thing but only one is acceptable to God.
​

I have no righteousness except that Christ is my righteousness. Claiming to have your own righteousness is called self-righteousness.

Two people serving in a soup kitchen, both doing the same exact thing. Both are lost unless Christ is their righteousness.

In Christ alone...

There are many more just like these so you can't say I'm avoiding you or refusing to answer you, you're just refusing to accept the answers.

There is not one person on this forum or any other forum that can truely say the law is done away with and in the same breath say it's a sin to lie, steal, murder and so on or that it's okay to do these things.

 

[freeindeed2]

Your cheap shots are the words you use that accuse me of avoiding and refusing to answer your question as though I'm trying to hide something or that I'm presenting something that I can't prove. I know that spirit very well and try to avoid it because it's really not looking for answers. But just for the sake of truth I will repost the answer that you refuse to accept as an answer.

YOUR LENGTHY QUESTION

HERE IS ANOTHER ONE

There are many more just like these so you can't say I'm avoiding you or refusing to answer you you're just refusing to accept the answers.

By your post then the way you address the passages of 2 Cor. 3 and the observations taken directly from the text, and Gal. 3 is:

Exodus 31:18, Hebrews 8:10, Leviticus 20:10, Matthew 5:28, Romans 8:3, Ezekiel 11:19-20, John 16:7-8, and 1 John 3:4?

And you believe that those 10 verses plucked out of context from 6 different writers addresses what Paul is saying specifically in 2 Cor. 3 and Gal. 3 which are direct instruction to the church (post-cross)? In my opinion that is cherry-picking at its finest. I cannot accept that method and use of scripture as a legitimate way to discover what God is trying to communicate to His church. You don't even address the content of the scriptures presented, and that is why I'm asking you if you're avoiding the answer. If you are, that's fine, but just say so and I will stop expecting you to address them.

And as to your last point, what 'righteousness' do YOU personally have that God does not accept? Where does it come from? And how did you acquire it in your fallen flesh? Is there another source of righteousness apart from God? If not, then why doesn't He accept the righteousness you possess?

In CHRIST alone...

 

[k4c]

freeindeed2 by your post then the way you address the passages of 2 Cor. 3 and the observations taken directly from the text, and Gal. 3 is:

Exodus 31:18, Hebrews 8:10, Leviticus 20:10, Matthew 5:28, Romans 8:3, Ezekiel 11:19-20, John 16:7-8, and 1 John 3:4?

And you believe that those 10 verses plucked out of context from 6 different writers addresses what Paul is saying specifically in 2 Cor. 3 and Gal. 3 which are direct instruction to the church (post-cross)? In my opinion that is cherry-picking at its finest. I cannot accept that method and use of scripture as a legitimate way to discover what God is trying to communicate to His church. You don't even address the content of the scriptures presented, and that is why I'm asking you if you're avoiding the answer. If you are, that's fine, but just say so and I will stop expecting you to address them.

Must use Scripture to intrepret Scripture.

And as to your last point, what 'righteousness' to YOU personally have that God does not accept? Where does it come from? And how did you acquire it in your fallen flesh? Is there another source of righteousness apart from God? If not, then why doesn't He accept the righteousness you possess?

In CHRIST alone...

Any righteous act done outside of God's direction is not accepted.

Can we be done now?

 

[VictorC]

Your cheap shots are the words you use that accuse me of avoiding and refusing to answer your question as though I'm trying to hide something or that I'm presenting something that I can't prove. I know that spirit very well and try to avoid it because it's really not looking for answers. But just for the sake of truth I will repost the answer that you refuse to accept as an answer.

There are many more just like these so you can't say I'm avoiding you or refusing to answer you, you're just refusing to accept the answers.

They weren't answers to the Scriptural observations that FreeIndeed presented to you. It is as I had noted earlier, where you fetched a ping-pong ball and tossed it back, instead of returning the one that was in play.

For example, the primary point provided is that the law was a guardian that led the recipients to Christ, and once it had performed that task, it lost its jurisdiction:

The law imprisoned and held captive those who were under it. It acted as a guardian UNTIL Christ came. It's an ending point, which is why to the Corinthian churches Paul used language like 'being brought to an end'. It started 430 years after Abraham and acted as a guardian (schoolmaster) UNTIL Christ...SO THAT we can be justified by faith in Christ.

v. 25-27 "But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

We are no longer under 'a guardian', the law, BECAUSE in Christ we are already sons of God through faith in what HE did. We have put on Christ.

Another point was that the ministration of the Spirit is superior to the former ministration of the letter, referring to the law engraved onto stone tables, the ten commandments, which was the Sinai covenant (2 Corinthians 3 is a commentary directly on Exodus 34, when Moses received the second pair of stone tables). Those observations were clearly presented in bulleted form.

What was your response?

Verses taken out of context. For example, you made the claim that the new covenant was the same as the first covenant, only with the law moved from tables of stone and placed into the hearts and minds of the people. Yet this same passage you quoted shows that God's "My law" is not according to Sinai. Hebrews 8:13 expands on that point, showing that with the new covenant, the first one is obsolete - not moved!

There is not one person on this forum or any other forum that can truely say the law is done away with and in the same breath say it's a sin to lie, steal, murder and so on or that it's okay to do these things.

Nowhere can you make a claim that the law exists or has jurisdiction over those redeemed in Jesus Christ, and has any power to condemn them (us). Rather, the law accomplished the purpose that its Creator designed into us, revealing our sin showing our poverty before a Holy God, and instructing us that we need His redemption if any of us is to survive.

All glory goes to God, Who has redeemed us from the law that concluded all under it "guilty before God", and left those Gentiles without the law "strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world". It is by redemption that we have been reconciled apart from the former covenant, when Jesus Christ "abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances".

 

[freeindeed2]

Must use Scripture to intrepret Scripture.

Does context matter?

Any righteous act done outside of God's direction is not accepted.

So, in your opinion, there is righteousness apart from God?

Can we be done now?

That is up to you. This is a discussion forum. I'm here to discuss. If you want to be done, be done. Didn't you start this thread? And I believe you just started another one too. I would request that you not start discussions if you're not going to discuss.

In CHRIST alone...

 

[k4c]

So, in your opinion, there is righteousness apart from God?

In CHRIST alone...

Either you don't read your Bible, which plainly and clearly speaks of a righteouness apart from God or you are trying to wear out the saints with frivolous questions.

I will entertain you one more time and show you one of many verses that speak of having a righeouseness of our own apart from God because if I don't you will use it against me and accuse me of avoiding you and refusing to answer you.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.

Now let me put it on record, like I've done so many times already, so you don't twist this and come up with more frivolous questions.

The righteousness we produce, apart from God, is unacceptable to Him but it is still a righteous act ie. the soup kitchen analogy I gave you on another thread.

 

[VictorC]

Either you don't read your Bible, which plainly and clearly speaks of a righteouness apart from God or you are trying to wear out the saints with frivolous questions.

I will entertain you one more time and show you one of many verses that speak of having a righeouseness of our own apart from God because if I don't you will use it against me and accuse me of avoiding you and refusing to answer you.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.

Now let me put it on record, like I've done so many times already, so you don't twist this and come up with more frivolous questions.

The righteousness we produce, apart from God, is unacceptable to Him but it is still a righteous act ie. the soup kitchen analogy I gave you on another thread.

Before you make a case out of Romans 10:3, you had best read it in its context. It addresses the feigned righteousness of the Jews adhering to the law mediated by Moses, who will not come to Jesus Christ. It is those remaining in the law and promoting it that are ignorant of God's righteousness, and attempt to establish their own in vain.

 

[freeindeed2]

Either you don't read your Bible, which plainly and clearly speaks of a righteouness apart from God or you are trying to wear out the saints with frivolous questions.

You aren't answering the questions. You're changing the topic and using cherry-picked versed to avoid clear scriptural teaching. And, thus, you will receive questions.

Are you trying to start an "I read my Bible more than you do!" game?

I will entertain you one more time and show you one of many verses that speak of having a righeouseness of our own apart from God because if I don't you will use it against me and accuse me of avoiding you and refusing to answer you.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.

At this point my first question in my last post (which you did not answer) is even more pertinent. Does context matter? Again you have plucked a single verse out of it's contextually framed environment that it was written in to try and make it say something it is not intended to say. Does context matter to you?

Now let me put it on record, like I've done so many times already, so you don't twist this and come up with more frivolous questions.

The only 'twisting' I am seeing here is scripture used out of context.

The righteousness we produce, apart from God, is unacceptable to Him but it is still a righteous act ie. the soup kitchen analogy I gave you on another thread.

Righteousness comes from God. Our attempts at 'producing' it would be self-righteousness, which is NO righteousness at all. Here is how ALL are described in scripture:

There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
“Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Ro 3:10-18

There is no righteousness apart from God.

In Christ alone...

 

[k4c]

There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
“Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Ro 3:10-18

There is no righteousness apart from God.

In Christ alone...

You keep using Romans 3:10-18 to justify your belief in that no one has ever been righteous or has ever done anything righteous. When you do that you have to ignor many, many verses in both the old and new testament that say otherwise.

Romans 3:10-18 is speaking of a specific group of people who deny God. They are the children of men and not the children of God. These verses should not be used as a blanket verse to cover every living person from the beginning of time until now.

Let me explain a little more.

Romans 3:10-18 is a quote for the old testament so we will have to go back there to understand who God was referring to.

Psalms 14:1-7 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God.'' They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call on the Lord? There they are in great fear, For God is with the generation of the righteous. You shame the counsel of the poor, But the Lord is his refuge. Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the Lord brings back the captivity of His people, Let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad.

Right away we see that God is referring to those who have said there is no God, not everyone has said that. These people who have said there is no God are corrupt and have done abominable works. As you continue reading you will find God making a distinction between these people and God's people because those who have said there is no God eat up God's people like bread and do not call upon the Lord. This is not referring to every living person because there have been many who understand and have done righteousness in the eyes of the Lord, they just need to be saved.

For example: Acts 10:1-4 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!'' And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, lord?'' So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.

God sends Peter to bring salvation to this God fearing Gentile who was honored by God for his good works.

freeindeed2: Are you trying to start an "I read my Bible more than you do!" game?

You don't want to go there because my Bible is a lot bigger and heavier than yours...

 

[freeindeed2]

You keep using Romans 3:10-18 to justify your belief in that no one has ever been righteous or has ever done anything righteous. When you do that you have to ignor many, many verse in both the old and new testament that say otherwise.

I haven't used this passage in this thread prior. 'Keep using...'?

I believe that Adam and Eve were righteous before the fall, and I believe Jesus was and is Righteousness, and I believe that all who believe in Christ through faith are made righteous by the Holy Spirit living IN them, and I believe prior to the cross people were counted as righteous through faith in God.

I believe the thesis statement for the letter to the Roman Christians states it best:

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
Ro 1:16-17​

Romans 3:10-18 is speaking of a specific group of people who deny God. The are the children of men and not the children of God. These verses should not be used as a blanket verse to cover every living person from the beginning of time until now.

Yes they should! Let Paul speak for himself, for in Romans 1-3 he includes ALL of humanity coming under God's wrath. Paul steps on the toes of all of humanity, both those who were given the law and those who were never under the law, yet they/we were still condemned. It's not just about v.10-18. Keep going to verse 19 (a clear demonstration as to why you should NOT develop 'sound-bite' theology from a verse here and a verse there!):

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin." Ro 3:19-20​

Every mouth. The WHOLE world. Paul's whole argument in the first three chapters is showing how ALL are under God's wrath, whether they had the law or not. And then you hit Ro 3:21 for the contrast:

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christe to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. Ro 3:21-25​

Let me explain a little more.

Romans 3:10-18 is a quote for the old testament so we will have to go back there to understand who God was referring to.

Psalms 14:1-7 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God.'' They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call on the Lord? There they are in great fear, For God is with the generation of the righteous. You shame the counsel of the poor, But the Lord is his refuge. Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the Lord brings back the captivity of His people, Let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad.

Right away we see that God is referring to those who have said there is not God, not everyone has said that. These people who have said there is not God are corrupt and have done abominable works. As you continue reading you will find God making a distinction between these people and God's people because those who have said there is no God eat up God's people like bread and do not call upon the Lord. This is not referring to every living person because there have been many who understand and have done righteousness in the eyes of the Lord, they just need to be saved.

For example: Acts 10:1-4 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!'' And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, lord?'' So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.

God sends Peter to bring salvation to this God fearing Gentile who was honored by God for his good works.

It seems as though you're doing a little dance. In Ro 3:9 Paul tells exactly who those verses are in reference to:

What shall we conclude then? Do we [Jews] have any advantage? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:... Ro 3:9-10​

By what you've said above you must believe that Paul is making a wrong application of v.10-18 that immediately follow. Even the title in most Bibles of that section of scripture says "No One Is Righteous", or something close to that. It describes fallen humanity, not some 'other' group of people somewhere else. The whole point of Paul writing this is to show that ALL of humanity was lost. I don't see how you can miss that.

You don't want to go there because my Bible is a lot bigger and heavier than yours...

I use a full-version of Logos Bible Software with unlocked resources. Although I only have 23 versions of the Bible right now on it...

In CHRIST alone...

 

[k4c]

I haven't used this passage in this thread prior. 'Keep using...'?

I believe that Adam and Eve were righteous before the fall, and I believe Jesus was and is Righteousness, and I believe that all who believe in Christ through faith are made righteous by the Holy Spirit living IN them, and I believe prior to the cross people were counted as righteous through faith in God.

I believe the thesis statement for the letter to the Roman Christians states it best:

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
Ro 1:16-17
​

Yes they should! Let Paul speak for himself, for in Romans 1-3 he includes ALL of humanity coming under God's wrath. Paul steps on the toes of all of humanity, both those who were given the law and those who were never under the law, yet they/we were still condemned. It's not just about v.10-18. Keep going to verse 19 (a clear demonstration as to why you should develop 'sound-bite' theology from a verse here and a verse there!):

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin." Ro 3:19-20
​

Every mouth. The WHOLE world. Paul's whole argument in the first three chapters is showing how ALL are under God's wrath, whether they had the law or not. And then you hit Ro 3:21 for the contrast:

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christe to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. Ro 3:21-25
​

It seems as though you're doing a little dance. In Ro 3:9 Paul tells exactly who those verses are in reference to:

What shall we conclude then? Do we [Jews] have any advantage? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:... Ro 3:9-10
​

By what you've said above you must believe that Paul is making a wrong application of v.10-18 that immediately follow. Even the title in most Bibles of that section of scripture says "No One Is Righteous", or something close to that. It describes fallen humanity, not some 'other' group of people somewhere else. The whole point of Paul writing this is to show that ALL of humanity was lost. I don't see how you can miss that.

I use a full-version of Logos Bible Software with unlocked resources. Although I only have 23 versions of the Bible right now on it...

In CHRIST alone...

The Bible clearly says there are many people who do righteous acts and are pleasing to God. But they still have a sin nature and are under the curse of the fall. Just because people do righteouse acts they still do unrighteous acts as well.

Ezekiel 18:24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

Sometimes a person doing right things can forget they still need a Savior to take the curse away and to cleans them of the sins they have committed. The pharisees are a good example.

1 John 1:7-8 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

freeindeed2: I use a full-version of Logos Bible Software with unlocked resources. Although I only have 23 versions of the Bible right now on it...

Oh yah, well my big brother knows a guy who knows a guy who has Greek and Hebrew Bible. We just can't find anyone who can read it...

 

[freeindeed2]

The Bible clearly says there are many people who do righteous acts and are pleasing to God. But they still have a sin nature and are under the curse of the fall. Just because people do righteouse acts they still do unrighteous acts as well.

Ezekiel 18:24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

I wish you would address the passage being discussed instead of jumping somewhere else. It's frustrating trying to discuss with you because you won't stay with a passage and let the richness and fullness of God's Word sink in. Ezekiel must be studied for its context for the audience, culture and time that it was written in.

Sometimes a person doing right things can forget they still need a Savior to take the curse away and to cleans them of the sins they have committed. The pharisees are a good example.

1 John 1:7-8 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

We weren't studying John's writings. The last attempt at sticking to a passage in scripture was Romans 1-3 with a heavy emphasis on chapter 3.

Oh yah, well my big brother knows a guy who knows a guy who has Greek and Hebrew Bible. We just can't find anyone who can read it...

Well, the 'unlocked resources' in Logos Bible Software includes the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic, as well as scores of commentaries, dictionaries, lexicons, etc. and even direct links to illustrations and sermons within and online. I would definitely recommend...even to your brother.

In Christ alone...

 

[k4c]

I wish you would address the passage being discussed instead of jumping somewhere else. It's frustrating trying to discuss with you because you won't stay with a passage and let the richness and fullness of God's Word sink in. Ezekiel must be studied for its context for the audience, culture and time that it was written in.


We weren't studying John's writings. The last attempt at sticking to a passage in scripture was Romans 1-3 with a heavy emphasis on chapter 3.


Well, the 'unlocked resources' in Logos Bible Software includes the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic, as well as scores of commentaries, dictionaries, lexicons, etc. and even direct links to illustrations and sermons within and online. I would definitely recommend...even to your brother.

In Christ alone...

I understand Romans 1-3, it's referring to righteousness by faith in Christ, which is what I've been saying all along. But just because have been justified freely through faith in Christ does not mean we are free to break the law now. Listen to what Romans says in the last verses of chapter three as he brings the conclusion of Romans 1-3.

Romans 3:31 Well then, if we are saved by faith, does this mean that we no longer need obey God's laws? Just the opposite! In fact, only when we trust Jesus can we truly obey him.

Amen and Amen...

 

[VictorC]

I understand Romans 1-3, it's referring to righteousness by faith in Christ, which is what I've been saying all along. But just because have been justified freely through faith in Christ does not mean we are free to break the law now. Listen to what Romans says in the last verses of chapter three as he brings the conclusion of Romans 1-3.

Romans 3:31 Well then, if we are saved by faith, does this mean that we no longer need obey God's laws? Just the opposite! In fact, only when we trust Jesus can we truly obey him.

Amen and Amen...

You do realize there isn't a literal translation of the Bible that reads this verse the way you posted it here. That message is nowhere to be found in Romans 3:31. It actually states that we establish the law, and the context following identifies that law by quoting from the Genesis record - which shows how Abraham was imputed righteousness apart from any works of any law, including circumcision.

Allowing the context to explain a verse is imperative to comprehension. After all, Romans 3:31 is sandwiched between these two statements:

Romans 3
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Romans 4
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

Reading a verse cliaming that you need to obey the former law, when that verse appears between statements showing how we're justified apart from the law and how we're heirs apart from the law is lousy eisegesis at its worst.
It is not what the author wrote at all.

 

[VictorC]

Well, the 'unlocked resources' in Logos Bible Software includes the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic, as well as scores of commentaries, dictionaries, lexicons, etc. and even direct links to illustrations and sermons within and online. I would definitely recommend...even to your brother.

For $35 you can have what I use. I have the OLB version 8.11, which has every English translation of the Masoretic Text (except the JPS Tenaukh) and Textus Receptus, plus a few older translations from the Westcott-Hort. It even includes Jay Green's Literal Translation, which is the text in the margin of Green's Interlinear Bible, that great big thing k4c can't find someone to read. I can't find another software package that includes that translation, and I really like it. The vast majority of quotations I provide are from the 1982 New King James, which I am really pleased with. Searches are easy, lexicons and commentaries are provided and easy to use, and it is a wonderful tool for the student.

 

[k4c]

You do realize there isn't a literal translation of the Bible that reads this verse the way you posted it here. That message is nowhere to be found in Romans 3:31. It actually states that we establish the law, and the context following identifies that law by quoting from the Genesis record - which shows how Abraham was imputed righteousness apart from any works of any law, including circumcision.

Allowing the context to explain a verse is imperative to comprehension. After all, Romans 3:31 is sandwiched between these two statements:

Romans 3
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Romans 4
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

Reading a verse cliaming that you need to obey the former law, when that verse appears between statements showing how we're justified apart from the law and how we're heirs apart from the law is lousy eisegesis at its worst.
It is not what the author wrote at all.

The writer is teaching us how Jesus is the end of the law FOR RIGHTEOUS but not the end of the law.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

This is why the write ends Romans 3 with how our faith does not do away with, abolish, destroy, put away or make void the law with our faith, but rather, we will uphold, continue, abide in it.

Jesus Himself also tells us that He did not come to do away with the law.

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Simpler Version
Matthew 5:17 Don't misunderstand why I have come--it isn't to cancel the laws of Moses and the warnings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill them, and to make them all come true.

We know this is true because it's still a sin to lie, steal, murder, have other Gods and so on.

 

[VictorC]

The writer is teaching us how Jesus is the end of the law FOR RIGHTEOUS but not the end of the law.

I believe my point was that your claim is false, evidenced by the very context your quote of Romans 3:31 appears in. That is the passage being discussed, and the deviant paraphrase you relied on to make a sound-bite that is incoherent with the actual text.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

This is why the write ends Romans 3 with how our faith does not do away with, abolish, destroy, put away or make void the law with our faith, but rather, we will uphold, continue, abide in it.

But seventh-day Adventism doesn't uphold any of the law that was ordained in the Genesis account, evidenced by their refusal to submit to the everlasting covenant of circumcision (Genesis 17:13). You're making a claim that another legal body is to be upheld instead of the one's record that the author makes his points from.

Jesus Himself also tells us that He did not come to do away with the law.

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Simpler Version
Matthew 5:17 Don't misunderstand why I have come--it isn't to cancel the laws of Moses and the warnings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill them, and to make them all come true.

Your point makes it clear that Jesus Christ did not come to fulfill the law and the prophets, a point that is refuted by His making propitiation to fulfill the law not long after He promised this as His intent.

We know this is true because it's still a sin to lie, steal, murder, have other Gods and so on.

These evil acts are still sin.
Where you have become confused is that these are no longer transgressions against a law that doesn't have the ability to forgive those infractions:

Romans 4
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

This is the message of God's Gospel: redemption from the tutor code that condemned all that remain in it, made available by the atonement Jesus Christ has made to fulfill the law. We have God's promise that "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more", a promise necessary because sin still exists and will continue to exist as long as you rely on flesh to live.
But the law does not charge us with transgressions anymore, because God has redeemed us from its curse that knows no mercy.

This is the law that you have insisted will remain unfulfilled.

 

[k4c]

These evil acts are still sin.
Where you have become confused is that these are no longer transgressions against a law that doesn't have the ability to forgive those infractions:

Romans 4
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

We have to interpret these things in light of the big picture. The big picture is that God will one day have a people who love Him and keep His commandments. This has been the heart of God from the begnning.

We know that we are sinful by nature so any law given to make one righteous before God will fall short because of our nature but any person living without law will self destruct.

So what does He do?

He frees us from the law and it's condemning power, which is seen in the old covenant.

How does He do that?

Through Christ. Jesus takes the wrath of God on behalf of the whole world bringing about the grace of God to everyone, no one is stoned to death for breaking God's law, as was in the old covenant.

Even those who refuse Jesus will not be stoned to death when they break God's law because the grace of God has gone out to the whole world. The grace of God is seen in His forbearance, and longsuffering in that He does not give people what they deserve ie: stoning to death for their sins. But there is one thing missing in those who reject Jesus, they are unjust so one day they will face the wrath of God.

Romans 2:4-8 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who "will render to each one according to his deeds'': eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness indignation and wrath,

Through faith in Jesus we might be justifed. Justification has to do with a past wrong made right. In other words, we broke God's law.

The law points out sin and brings condemnation and death to self righteous self. The law will always point out sin. When we come to Jesus we are justified and made righteous before God. In this the condemning power of the law is done away with because it did it's job when it pointed us to Christ to be justified because we broke it.

With Jesus comes a love for God and a hunger and thirst for righteousness. We have been set free from the law only to return to it freely because the law is righteous, holy and good and we hunger and thirst for that. God is now able to write His law on our heart through Jesus and the work of the Spirit. We become like the slave that has been set free from his master only to return back to the rulership of his master because he loves him.

Exodus 21:1-2 "Now these are the judgments which you shall set before them: "If you buy a Hebrew servant, he shall serve six years; and in the seventh he shall go out free and pay nothing.

Exodus 21:5-6 "But if the servant plainly says, `I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,' "then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever.

 

[VictorC]

We have to interpret these things in light of the big picture. The big picture is that God will one day have a people who love Him and keep His commandments. This has been the heart of God from the begnning.

So, what you're claiming is that the Bible needs to be interpreted, instead of accepting the message that the new testament authors wrote in plain language meant to be understood by their recipients? Apparently so in your case, and your statement reflects the eisegetical process in which the commandments of God are to be replaced by the former covenant's law:

In the last generation God gives the final demonstration that men can keep the law of God and that they can live without sinning. God leaves nothing undone to make the demonstration complete. The only limitation He puts on Satan is that he may not kill the saints of God. He may tempt them, he may harass and threaten them; and he does his best. But he fails. He cannot make them sin. They stand the test, and God puts His seal on them. Through the last generation of saints God stands fully vindicated. (M.L. Andreasen The Sanctuary Service, Review and Herald, 1969 printing, pp. 318-19)

This remains current Adventist theology, wherein the object of Adventism is to vindicate God's law, the same law of the former covenant God saw fit to redeem us from, with full knowledge that it will never be vindicated. It was designed to lead you as a tutor to Jesus Christ, and the SDA church's object is not the same object of redemption God designed into the created law.

We know that we are sinful by nature so any law given to make one righteous before God will fall short because of our nature but any person living without law will self destruct.

So what does He do?

He frees us from the law and it's condemning power, which is seen in the old covenant.

This observation is consistent with Paul's observation found in Colossians 2:

13 ¶ And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Freedom from the law is the same expression as redemption from the law, identified as the ten commandments in Romans 7:6-7, which has been quoted for you many times before. Consistent with this observation, the very reason that there are no grounds to judge another regarding their dismissal of the sabbath is because the law has lost its jurisdiction, and there is no ordinance driving sabbath observance outside the first covenant.

Through faith in Jesus we might be justifed. Justification has to do with a past wrong made right. In other words, we broke God's law.

This continues to be the case, making God's promise all the more important to us: Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more. God doesn't expect anyone to vindicate the former law He redeemed us from. The official position of the SDA church is false.

We have been set free from the law only to return to it freely because the law is righteous, holy and good and we hunger and thirst for that.

Return to the context where this statement is made in Romans 7:12, and you will find the author testifying that he does not comply with this law, and tells us that the law that is holy, just, and good is lethal to all who are not, and God's disposition that all are disobedient is all inclusive; there is no exception for those trying to vindicate the former covenant God made obsolete.

God is now able to write His law on our heart through Jesus and the work of the Spirit.

Several times I have requested that you make the effort to identify what -or, rather Who- God's "My law" refers to, and you haven't made any attempt to identify this reference. Remember, Jeremiah was specific when God stated that "My law" was not according to Sinai, and the author of Hebrews capilalized on that by stating that a new covenant makes the former covenant obsolete. Moving the location of the former obsolete covenant does not make it new, any more than moving a chair across the room makes the chair new.

 

[k4c]

I hope you don't mind that I remove all the fluff from your posts.

VictorC; Return to the context where this statement is made in Romans 7:12, and you will find the author testifying that he does not comply with this law, and tells us that the law that is holy, just, and good is lethal to all who are not,

Romans 7:10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.

The commandments were to bring life but instead they brought death.

Why is this?

Because of sin.

Take away the sin through Christ and behold...life from what use to bring death.

Matthew 19:17 But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.''

Several times I have requested that you make the effort to identify what -or, rather Who- God's "My law" refers to, and you haven't made any attempt to identify this reference. Remember, Jeremiah was specific when God stated that "My law" was not according to Sinai, and the author of Hebrews capilalized on that by stating that a new covenant makes the former covenant obsolete. Moving the location of the former obsolete covenant does not make it new, any more than moving a chair across the room makes the chair new.

The commandments of God are part of the new covenant, which I have showed you time and time again. They go from stone in the old covenant to the heart in the new covenant through love.

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

The commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus is what the new covenant is all about.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I don't think we're going to go anywhere with this so we might as well just part ways because I will say they are the commandments that God wrote on stone and then transfers them to the heart and you will say no they are not.