• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Love and Respect

Status
Not open for further replies.

HannahT

Newbie
Site Supporter
Apr 9, 2013
6,028
2,423
✟504,470.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Originally Posted by RedPonyDriver View Post
Link, I am tired of going round and round with you, so I'll say this as plainly as I can. Your way that you promote as "biblical" is not the only way to negotiate marriage. Not to mention, it is not an issue that has any bearing on salvation. So...with that in mind, I'll leave you to your ideas and happily stay with mine.
A good tree bears good fruit and an evil tree bears evil fruit. The kind of fruit we bear is related to our salvation in that way.

As Christians, only being concerned with what will get us saved can be a selfish way of looking at it. We should be seeking to live our lives in a way that pleases God and glorifies him.

Actually, what she mentioned is true. It isn't a salvation issue.

Sounds like she is going through a season in life, and the bible speaks about that. In time she may again be able to respect him as a fellow human being, but God doesn't insist on anything else under his condition.

She never mentioned that she was only concerned with what will get her saved. It's sad that you assume the worse about people. That certainly can't be biblical in nature, nor pleasing to him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mkgal1
Upvote 0

RedPonyDriver

Professional Pot Stirrer
Oct 18, 2014
3,525
2,427
USA
✟83,676.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Democrat
Actually, what she mentioned is true. It isn't a salvation issue.

Sounds like she is going through a season in life, and the bible speaks about that. In time she may again be able to respect him as a fellow human being, but God doesn't insist on anything else under his condition.

She never mentioned that she was only concerned with what will get her saved. It's sad that you assume the worse about people. That certainly can't be biblical in nature, nor pleasing to him.

The worst is assumed of me because I have declared that I am a feminist, working in a male dominated career field. Therefore, since I refuse to "submit" to pretty much any man, I am nothing more than a brazen heathen who has it all wrong and am doomed to a permanently hot domain after my time on this earth has ceased.

He is welcome to think of me as he wishes, as it has been shown over and over again that men who insist on submission and respect usually don't deserve it and have absolutely no idea what being a feminist is all about other than the desire to do away with men...(what would happen to the NFL then???)
 
Upvote 0

LinkH

Regular Member
Jun 19, 2006
8,602
671
✟58,853.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I've always found this to be conflating two different topics. Not being a Christ believer doesn't equate with being a person that's difficult to respect or someone that's unloving.

There are men who profess faith who aren't obeying the word either. A man who isn't loving his wife doesn't obey the word. I wasn't interpreting the phrase in the narrow way you were. I certainly believe it applies to wives with unbelieving husbands as well.
 
Upvote 0

LinkH

Regular Member
Jun 19, 2006
8,602
671
✟58,853.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
She never mentioned that she was only concerned with what will get her saved. It's sad that you assume the worse about people. That certainly can't be biblical in nature, nor pleasing to him.

I didn't say she was, but you are actually making a statement assuming something bad about me. I gave her something to think about.

I do often read of people saying, 'It doesn't matter because it's not a salvation issue', when it is likely an issue that God cares about. Dismissing something as not important because "it's not a salvation issue" is a man-centered (or 'human-centered' if you prefer) way of looking at things.

In time she may again be able to respect him as a fellow human being, but God doesn't insist on anything else under his condition.

Are you claiming to prophesy this? The Bible tells wives to respect/reverence their husbands. Do you have some sort of word from the Lord that He is making an exception to this or that He doesn't want this?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LinkH

Regular Member
Jun 19, 2006
8,602
671
✟58,853.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The worst is assumed of me because I have declared that I am a feminist, working in a male dominated career field. Therefore, since I refuse to "submit" to pretty much any man, I am nothing more than a brazen heathen who has it all wrong and am doomed to a permanently hot domain after my time on this earth has ceased.

I never said you were going to Hell. I don't care much for certain philosophies that go under the label 'feminism'. That's true. But a lot of the comments that I, and other posters over the last few months, have made toward you come after someone quotes scripture and you state things that appear, from our perspective, to disagree with it because it doesn't conform with your thinking.

Btw, I never said that woman with a successful, high-powered career couldn't be the kind of wife the Lord desires. I do think it is difficult for some women when they earn more money than their husbands, especially if the husband is a stay at home dad or can't work for other reasons. It's natural for a woman to want a husband who provides, and it can be tough on both the man and the woman. I'm thinking of my own time in graduate school, too.
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,338
7,348
California
✟573,733.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
There are men who profess faith who aren't obeying the word either. A man who isn't loving his wife doesn't obey the word. I wasn't interpreting the phrase in the narrow way you were. I certainly believe it applies to wives with unbelieving husbands as well.

My point is, though, that that passage isn't speaking of moral character (common decency towards others)---it's strictly speaking of the difference between believing in worshiping pagan gods (which was the norm for that culture) and following Christ. Context again is very important. Trying to apply this to a different scenario changes things far too much from the original message (I think).

IF you want to use this, though.....I think it would dis-prove your line of thinking (instead of supporting it). This passage is actually suggesting that women go *against* the culture (which the husband would be in agreement with--not obeying the word). "When they see that you conduct yourselves in reverence and discretion" sets these women apart (and from what I understand---it's not about being "submissive" but having sexual relations ONLY with their husbands--as opposed to having sex with temple prostitutes, which was the norm for that culture).

That's not really something I've come up against in my marriage (standing in the temple, saying to my husband, "no, honey....I will NOT have sex with that man there. God wants us to keep that between ourselves.... let's go home and be together, instead". ) That verse is about *that* kind of "submit yourself ONLY [or "to your own"] to your husband". I doubt anyone in this thread takes issue with that variety.
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,338
7,348
California
✟573,733.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Are you claiming to prophesy this? The Bible tells wives to respect/reverence their husbands. Do you have some sort of word from the Lord that He is making an exception to this or that He doesn't want this?

The Bible does NOT tell wives to enable sinful behavior. That's not genuinely loving. It'd be nice if you backed off from suggesting how people ought to live.
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,338
7,348
California
✟573,733.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Btw, I never said that woman with a successful, high-powered career couldn't be the kind of wife the Lord desires. I do think it is difficult for some women when they earn more money than their husbands, especially if the husband is a stay at home dad or can't work for other reasons. It's natural for a woman to want a husband who provides, and it can be tough on both the man and the woman. I'm thinking of my own time in graduate school, too.

I guess some of us are "unnatural" then?
 
  • Like
Reactions: RedPonyDriver
Upvote 0

RedPonyDriver

Professional Pot Stirrer
Oct 18, 2014
3,525
2,427
USA
✟83,676.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Democrat
Btw, I never said that woman with a successful, high-powered career couldn't be the kind of wife the Lord desires. I do think it is difficult for some women when they earn more money than their husbands, especially if the husband is a stay at home dad or can't work for other reasons. It's natural for a woman to want a husband who provides, and it can be tough on both the man and the woman. I'm thinking of my own time in graduate school, too.

Then I'm not a "natural" woman...I don't care if he can provide or not because I can provide for myself quite well thank you. I don't need a daddy/lover/provider. My dad was a fantastic father and he's gone now. Lover...yeah, well...that hormonal thing...provider...thank you, no. Don't need a man to support me. I can do that quite well for myself.
 
Upvote 0

LinkH

Regular Member
Jun 19, 2006
8,602
671
✟58,853.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Bible does NOT tell wives to enable sinful behavior. That's not genuinely loving.

I Peter 3's advice tells how it is possible to win a husband who is disobedient to the word.

It'd be nice if you backed off from suggesting how people ought to live.

The irony is how I post is part of how I live.

But, no I'm not going to back off at telling people they need to do what the apostles taught them to do. And when people keep posting that other people don't need to do this things, I'm going to disagree.

I'm thinking of some of the posts on this thread after we moved away from the book discussion. Besides me, it's pretty much been women. But the common theme from a couple of posters seems to be that a woman doesn't have to do what the Bible teaches wives to do if her husband is bad, and a couple of other posters making supportive comments to those supporting this theme. This particular forum, for years, has had a theme where basically a lot of posters argue that wives don't need to do what the Bible teaches. It's not as direct as this thread as been. Usually, it's redefining what the Bible says.

I know a lot of men don't love their wives as Christ loved the church. That's a huge problem. It is a pretty daunting teaching if you think about that... as Christ loved the church. Wow. I don't think I've ever seen a man say he wasn't supposed to love his wife as Christ loved the church on this forum. Now we don't say we do it all the time. That's quite a claim. But at least the men on the forum will acknowledge that we are supposed to, we should. We try. That sort of thing.

I'm not saying it's a female thing to dodge responsibility in this area. I'm saying it has been a common thread on the forum at least among very vocal participants. Some of those of a different viewpoint seem to have stopped being active members a few years back when the environment was a bit more hostile, but some still post in the forums.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

RedPonyDriver

Professional Pot Stirrer
Oct 18, 2014
3,525
2,427
USA
✟83,676.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Democrat
I Peter 3's advice tells how it is possible to win a husband who is disobedient to the word.



The irony is how I post is part of how I live.

But, no I'm not going to back off at telling people they need to do what the apostles taught them to do. And when people keep posting that other people don't need to do this things, I'm going to disagree.

I'm thinking of some of the posts on this thread after we moved away from the book discussion. Besides me, it's pretty much been women. But the common theme from a couple of posters seems to be that a woman doesn't have to do what the Bible teaches wives to do if her husband is bad, and a couple of other posters making supportive comments to those supporting this theme. This particular forum, for years, has had a theme where basically a lot of posters argue that wives don't need to do what the Bible teaches. It's not as direct as this thread as been. Usually, it's redefining what the Bible says.

I know a lot of men don't love their wives as Christ loved the church. That's a huge problem. It is a pretty daunting teaching if you think about that... as Christ loved the church. Wow. I don't think I've ever seen a man say he wasn't supposed to love his wife as Christ loved the church on this forum. Now we don't say we do it all the time. That's quite a claim. But at least the men on the forum will acknowledge that we are supposed to, we should. We try. That sort of thing.

I'm not saying it's a female thing to dodge responsibility in this area. I'm saying it has been a common thread on the forum at least among very vocal participants. Some of those of a different viewpoint seem to have stopped being active members a few years back when the environment was a bit more hostile, but some still post in the forums.

What you fail to understand is that every marriage has its own dynamic based on the personalities involved. Every couple has to find what works for them inside the biblical framework. If it doesn't look like yours, then what is that to you? Like I've said before, opinions and biblical interpretations are like belly buttons....everybody has one, some of them are really fuzzy. Your insistence on "my way or the highway" is what ticks people off, especially women. By your posts, you come off as on the more extreme end of patriarchy, something that has been shown to be harmful to women from time immemorial.

Those of us who claim to be feminists don't have a problem with men. Well, most men. We don't want to BE men...we want the same opportunities in the world as men have. We are the ones who remember that up until the 1970's, women could not get credit unless their fathers or husbands co-signed. Women were legally still little more than property, under a father's or husband's thumb.

We don't want to be superior to men, we want equal footing. Yes, there are some who are strident men haters and honestly, I can understand where they're coming from...HOWEVER...when you make statements like "all women want a man to provide for them"...I immediately stop taking you seriously.

The only conclusion I can come to is that you feel threatened by strong, independent women who refuse to be doormats. And no, we don't want men to be doormats either...
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,338
7,348
California
✟573,733.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I Peter 3's advice tells how it is possible to win a husband who is disobedient to the word.
That's a totally different application. N/A

Does it sound reasonable that the Bible suggests that women allow their husbands to sin in order to lead them to Christ (because that's what I "hear" you saying). That passage says, "when they view her pure and chaste behavior"---how would it be "pure and chaste behavior" to make the provision for her husband to sin?
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,338
7,348
California
✟573,733.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The irony is how I post is part of how I live.

I don't see that as ironic. I'm not the least bit surprised.

But, no I'm not going to back off at telling people they need to do what the apostles taught them to do. And when people keep posting that other people don't need to do this things, I'm going to disagree.
The thing is---what you're saying isn't what the apostles taught (you've added quite a bit). That's why there's disagreement (not just in this thread---but across the Christian denominations world-wide) on this topic (for ages). It's not agreed upon throughout denominations---it's not going to get agreed upon here.
 
Upvote 0

LinkH

Regular Member
Jun 19, 2006
8,602
671
✟58,853.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Does it sound reasonable that the Bible suggests that women allow their husbands to sin in order to lead them to Christ (because that's what I "hear" you saying).

How is she going to 'allow' or 'not allow' him to sin. I'm saying a woman shouldn't sin if her husband sins.


That passage says, "when they view her pure and chaste behavior"---how would it be "pure and chaste behavior" to make the provision for her husband to sin?

I think this discussion is too vague. I don't think a wife should call a hooker to serve her husband, if that's the sort of thing you are talking about.

I don't see how a wife being respectful to her husband like the Bible teaches is 'enabling' or 'allowing him to sin.'
 
Upvote 0

LinkH

Regular Member
Jun 19, 2006
8,602
671
✟58,853.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What you fail to understand is that every marriage has its own dynamic based on the personalities involved. Every couple has to find what works for them inside the biblical framework.

I understand that and I agree that every marriage is unique and that they have to find what works within the Biblical framework. I don't agree with Christians saying they don't need to be within the Biblical framework.

If it doesn't look like yours, then what is that to you? Like I've said before, opinions and biblical interpretations are like belly buttons....everybody has one, some of them are really fuzzy. Your insistence on "my way or the highway" is what ticks people off, especially women.

I get a lot of that 'my way or the highway' vibe from your posts. What I'm talking about is when the Bible says for wives to respect/reverence their husbands, and your disagreeing with that and saying that a wife should only respect her husband if he deserves it. It's a contradiction of what the Bible teaches. That's not different personalities working within the Biblical framework. That's arguing for something outside of the Biblical framework.

What I can understand is someone saying they are having a rough time with their husband and he's behaved badly, and it is difficult to respect him, she's praying for grace to respect him, etc. I totally understand that.

Jesus died on a cross for sinners who didn't love God. Look at Stephen. He was serving men by preaching the Gospel to them, the message of eternal life. When they stoned him to death, he prayed to the Lord to forgive them. One man, holding the garments of those who stoned Stephen, found forgiveness and preached the Gospel throughout much of the known world a that time.

We didn't earn Jesus' love. The crowd that stoned Stephen didn't earn what he did.


By your posts, you come off as on the more extreme end of patriarchy, something that has been shown to be harmful to women from time immemorial.

That's feminist philosophy. Abraham was a patriarch. So were Isaac and Jacob. God made covenants with them, so patriarchs aren't all bad. I know I mentioned feminism earlier. Mainly it's because those who are entrenched in feminism have difficulty accepting the woman's part in Ephesians 5. Christian men may not claim to be living up to their role, but at least they acknowledge its their role, in my experience. We just usually say stuff like, wow, like Christ loved the church. That's a big obligation.

We don't want to be superior to men, we want equal footing. Yes, there are some who are strident men haters and honestly, I can understand where they're coming from...HOWEVER...when you make statements like "all women want a man to provide for them".

I didn't put it that way. I said its natural for a woman to want a man to provide for them. That doesn't mean every woman thinks or feels that way, but a lot do, and I said that it's natural.

The only conclusion I can come to is that you feel threatened by strong, independent women who refuse to be doormats. And no, we don't want men to be doormats either...

And then I read this and I think that when someone challenges your thinking on husbands and wives roles, you resort to feminist rhetoric about women being doormats, under men's thumbs, etc. I don't mind a woman being strong, but as far as attraction goes, the body builder type isn't appealing to me. I don't care for big shoulders. My wife isn't a body builder with big shoulders, so it doesn't matter much what other women do with their muscles. I appreciate my wife's emotional strength though. Independence? That's not a good quality in a spouse. If someone is too independent, husband or wife, it's going to be hard for that person to work well with others, IMO. Independence is a myth. Mountain men who live alone and eat their own game and eat the inner layers of pine bark to stay alive are somewhat independent, but they are dependent on God for the game and the trees being there. Then if they get sick and have no one to help them, they are in trouble. If they need a general store at the bottom of the mountain to buy their furs and sell them flour, they aren't completely independent.
 
Upvote 0

RedPonyDriver

Professional Pot Stirrer
Oct 18, 2014
3,525
2,427
USA
✟83,676.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Democrat
That's feminist philosophy. Abraham was a patriarch. So were Isaac and Jacob. God made covenants with them, so patriarchs aren't all bad. I know I mentioned feminism earlier. Mainly it's because those who are entrenched in feminism have difficulty accepting the woman's part in Ephesians 5. Christian men may not claim to be living up to their role, but at least they acknowledge its their role, in my experience. We just usually say stuff like, wow, like Christ loved the church. That's a big obligation.

QUOTE]

The patriarchs in the bible and the modern idea of patriarchy are two totally different things...

Regarding the woman's role in Ephesians 5....it is a COVENANT...it is a 2 way street. If one doesn't happen then neither does the other. That's been explained to you many times, but you haven't gotten it. If one side unilaterally breaks the covenant, then the other side is not bound to it.

Therefore...if a husband does not love his wife as Christ loves the church, she is not bound to 'submit' or to "reverence" him.

So...since, in my case, my husband refused to love me as Christ loves the church, I am not required to "submit", to "reverence" or to "respect" him. At all. He can try to win back my trust and my respect however, it will not automatically be bestowed upon him if we reconcile the marriage.
 
Upvote 0

LinkH

Regular Member
Jun 19, 2006
8,602
671
✟58,853.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The patriarchs in the bible and the modern idea of patriarchy are two totally different things...

True to some extent, though they were patriarchal as well, so it's a valid point. The OT is patriarchal. God gave laws that were patriarchal. God is revealed as Father.

Regarding the woman's role in Ephesians 5....it is a COVENANT...it is a 2 way street. If one doesn't happen then neither does the other. That's been explained to you many times, but you haven't gotten it. If one side unilaterally breaks the covenant, then the other side is not bound to it.

So what do you mean by not being bound to the covenant? Do you think if a husband acts in an unloving way once, short of how Christ loves the church, that his wife no longer is married to him or has to be married to him? Do you think if a wife says a disrespectful word to her husband, they are no longer married?

Or is it just along the parameters of Ephesians 5:33? If a wife is disrespectful to her husband, do you think that means the husband no longer has to love his wife anymore?

Or is it just a one-way street, where only wives have no requirements or moral obligations?

Therefore...if a husband does not love his wife as Christ loves the church, she is not bound to 'submit' or to "reverence" him.

This is the exact error I am talking about summarized into a sentence. The passage doesn't teach this. You obey God whether someone else does or not. If your husband sins, that doesn't give you a license to sin.

If Jesus said, "love your enemies' then is he going to approve of a man not loving his wife because she is disrespectful?

So...since, in my case, my husband refused to love me as Christ loves the church, I am not required to "submit", to "reverence" or to "respect" him. At all. He can try to win back my trust and my respect however, it will not automatically be bestowed upon him if we reconcile the marriage.

If you will notice the scribes and Pharisees liked to spin a legal argument instead of actually doing what God commanded of them. Matthew 15 about providing for parents is a good example.

Look at I Peter 3 says to wives. They are given the same command in I Peter 3 and Ephesians 5 whether the husband obeys the word or not.

A peaceful attitude goes a long way toward reconciliation. Having peace inside about it also helps a lot. And the Lord can give us that peace. Sometimes the peace comes when we submit to His will.
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,338
7,348
California
✟573,733.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
How is she going to 'allow' or 'not allow' him to sin. I'm saying a woman shouldn't sin if her husband sins.

I don't see how a wife being respectful to her husband like the Bible teaches is 'enabling' or 'allowing him to sin.'

Her husband had been sinning---that's why they aren't living in the same home. You've been going on preaching to RPD about how she NEEDS to respect/revere her estranged husband (she's been open about their life right now). IMO---she IS respecting him--the way the Bible instructs (they're doing things the right way--I think). She's not going to put up with his mess any longer (trashing the house and disrespecting her and taking her for granted). By setting the standard of "no---you will NOT do that any longer" she *is* respecting him (and honoring God). It's what's best for ALL.

That's what I was summing up when I'd posted:

The Bible does NOT tell wives to enable sinful behavior. That's not genuinely loving.

And your response was:

I Peter 3's advice tells how it is possible to win a husband who is disobedient to the word.

And my point has been that this isn't applicable. She could live the most pure and chaste life---it's not going to do anything but enable his behavior.

Your "admonition" of her NEED to "repent" would be allowing his attitude to go unchecked (and they'd be living the same patterns as they've always lived with no positive change). That's enabling sin. He could continue in that pattern---just not with her present.

I believe this whole rabbit trail is one that you've taken us down, Link.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.