Love and Respect

[RedPonyDriver]

So basically you're saying that women should remain dependent on their husbands, have lots of kids and kowtow to him whenever he wants?

"To respect and defer to men"? Really? That ain't happening...there are men I respect but none I will defer to. Not a one.

I am a woman...blessed with brains and education. I don't need anyone to validate my womanhood or femininity. I am what I am.

Also...how can it be difficult for a woman "psychologically" if she has that economic independence? I would think it would be more problematic for the man who realizes that he'd better mind his p's and q's around her because she doesn't NEED to put up with his mess.

 

[LinkH]

I have already discussed "fearing" and the reason why we are not to fear our husbands in the way you think we should (revere). The correct translation there is respect.

You made a comment on it. Not something I found persuasive or that really dealt with the heart of the issue. You aren't a language scholar, are you? I'm not a Greek scholar. Greek dictionaries render it as 'fear', 'deference', and 'reverence' for the word. You think of 'reverence' as a specifically religious word. Not everyone does.

One of the problems with rendering it 'respect' is that people think of respect as something someone earns, which isn't the way the Greek word is used. If you fear a ruler, is it because he's earned it? They had some pretty bad rulers back then. We fear God. Sure, He's earned it, but someone who thinks God has to prove to him or her that God has earned it before he or she will respect God has the wrong attitude, a dangerous attitude. Respect to the husband should be given 'as unto the Lord', just like we are to do our work 'as unto the Lord.' Ultimately, the things we do in life should be to glorify Him.

And there is nowhere in the passage that says it should be done unconditionally.

When I read that, I think of a Samuel L. Jackson someone, "What part of DO NOT ______ do you not understand?"

The Bible says 'Do not commit adultery." Is that conditional or unconditional? If your spouse is really bad, does adultery become okay? No. What about "Do not murder." If we say there are times to kill, then those are times when we don't define it as 'murder' aren't they? Do not murder isn't conditional.

If the Bible tells husbands to love their wives, how is that 'conditional.' If the Bible tells wives to respect their husbands, how is that 'conditional.'

Rather, the condition is that it is in response to the man's love for his wife. The more he loves her, the more likely she is to respect him - except for those women who abuse their husband's love and take it for granted.

Maybe so. Maybe there is a tendency in that direction. And a man may be more likely to love a wife who treats him with respect. But fallen people can be very messed up, and a loving husband could have a wife who often treats him with disrespect and a respectful wife could have an unloving husband. We also have a culture that discourages respect of husbands. There are probably some cultures that discourage loving one's wife too much. I don't want to name any countries, but I can imagine that countries that marry girls off at 6 might not be cultures that really encourage loving wives. But I haven't lived in those places myself.

This book does not get women going in the right direction; quite the contrary, those of us who read this book that I know, have had an adverse reaction to it because it is so evidently biased and placed far more expectation on women's respect than it did on men's love,

The women on this forum seem to be predominantly egalitarian or feminist, with some being a bit more 'far left' than others on the issue. Like I said, I took a Sunday School class recently. We had 18 people. I didn't hear any reactions from the women along those lines. My wife didn't mention anything like that when she talked about the women's discussions on the book. They didn't come back from them seeming angry about the book.

and when women are constantly "reminded" of how we are to submit, respect, or revere our husbands, many (maybe most?) of us are more likely to respond by defensiveness and rebellion.

Constantly? A Christian book on marriage should address these topics because the New Testament only has a handful of commands to wives on marriage, and this is what those commands are about.

If a woman responds to what the New Testament teaches on marriage with defensiveness and rebellion, then might she not have some issue with rebellion, pride, or something like that?

Link, I will tell you how to earn the respect of the women on this board. Do not come here and "teach" or "instruct" women on how we are to respect our husbands. Rather, come on here and teach/instruct men on how to love their wives the way that Christ loves the church.

Exactly how many male posters have been on this thread in the last 10 or so pages? I'm in here talking with a handful of women, and I'm supposed to instruct the men. There is nothing wrong with me pointing out what the Bible says on a forum like this and pointing out some of the problems when people want to soften up what it says a bit.

When you as a man and husband focus more on that plank in your own eye, then we will be more willing to allow you to take the speck out of our own eyes.

ValleyGal, what basis do you have for accusing me of some kind of sin? You might not agree with me, and you might not like what I say. But you don't really have any basis for accusing me of some kind of sin. You don't know the inner workings of my marriage any better than I know yours. You don't have any legitimate reason to think that I don't love my wife. It's not reasonable for you to think of me as having some kind of collective male plank in my eye because of other men who don't love their wives.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Ya know...someone who makes such a big deal over how men are supposed to be respected probably is in a situation where he isn't respected. Maybe at home, maybe in the workplace and feels a need to push this issue to other women because of his own ego issues...

Therefore I have taken all the writings by a certain person for what they're worth...

 

[LinkH]

RedPonyRider,

They no longer get the unquestioning love, adoration and respect of their wives because she knows that is where her bread and butter are.

In the past, my wife used to be a bit more of the type who wanted me to prove myself to her than she is now. And she's let go of that and shows more respect now. One of the issues is that she'd have her own ideas or standard of how she wants me to be, that isn't necessarily THE standard of the way to be. When she relaxed on that, and just started showing more respect, things improved in our marriage. That happened just about three years ago, and our marriage has gotten a lot better.

It sure is a lot better to have a marriage where you can go home and be yourself around your spouse without having to live up to some kind of standard, jump through hoops, or impress the other person all the time. I'm not saying my wife was to that extreme, necessarily, in the past. But I've tasted a little of that, and it's not fun. But it sure is good to go home as a man and I know that my wife will love, adore, and respect me. And I don't have to do anything to get that.

And my wife doesn't like it if I'm judgmental toward her and have some kind of high expectation on her as a wife that's difficult for her to meet, and if she doesn't do it, she doesn't feel like a good wife. I haven't meant to do that, but she has told me before that she felt like if she didn't do X, that I didn't think she was a good wife. I didn't realize I was giving off the vibe that I was judging her like that, so I listened to what she had to say about that. I want my wife to know that I love her. I can love her and be kind to her without the pressure of thinking I have to do it to get her respect, love, and adoration. I love her and she doesn't have to walk on eggshells or do a tap dance for me to approve of her asa wife. It's a lot more relaxed that way, a lot more enjoyable.

If your husband is getting upset with you a lot, there may be some things you can do to take the stress off of him. To improve the marriage, you should be looking at areas in yourself to improve. If you want him to make you feel like a woman, how can you make him feel like a man? Actually, some of the things the book suggests are really good. Writing a card that says, "I respect you because..." is a good idea.

Men now have to do more to prove their love...they REALLY DO have to love their wives as Christ loves the church because a woman is no longer willing to settle for less. So...men are finding out their boorish ways are no longer going to fly...and therefore THEY must change.

They're finding out that a Y chromosome no longer earns them deference.

This attitude is way too 'battle of the sexes' IMO, and not the way to have a good, healty marriage. He should really love His wife to please Christ. Whether he does that or not, you respect/reverence Him out of reverence for Christ. Treat it as an act of worship to the Lord. A man shouldn't have to worry that his wife won't 'settle for less' if he doesn't love her in some specific way that she judges is loving as Christ loves the church. Women can have their own false ideas about love, or their own specific idea of what love should look like when it doesn't have to look exactly like that. Men can be that way, too, and you wouldn't want your own actions judged under a microscope. With the measure you judge, it will be measured back to you again.

We'll see how that goes. I have stated that we will not be resuming living together or sharing intimate moments until we renew our vows. If reconciliation is that important to him (and he says it is), then this is how it is going to go down. I am calling the shots here and he can either do what I ask or forget it. (not terribly "submissive" of me is it?? )

Not really. I'd encourage you to follow what I Corinthians 7 says about what it calls 'due benevolence.'


I've been reading your comments on the forum for months now. You come across to me as 'spunky'. You write a lot about your qualifications and power, things you have done. To me, sometimes it comes off as bragging a bit, especially when someone else or I point out the Bible says do X or have Y attitude, and your response is along the lines of "I am not going to do X" or "I am not going to be like Y" because I [insert qualifications or statements about your own power as a woman, etc..]

The way you describe what your husband has said and done to you sounds really bad. But I know I'm getting the information filtered through the spouse. Just from person and online experience, I know that people going through some marriage struggles see things from their own perspective and if things are hot, perspectives can be skewed. My wife and I have had disagreements before and if she retells it, it seems a lot different from my own interpretation and recollection. That's human nature.

But I'll tell you, as a man, reading some of these comments about your female power, you not respecting your husband if he doesn't do X, and I read about you making the money and him being a stay and home husband, and I wonder if all this stuff wouldn't push a normal man to a very stressful situation where he might snap and throw a temper tantrum. Especially if you were to insist on being in control and reminded him that you made the money, I could certainly see how that would be stressful for him. I'd like to ask you just to keep that in mind. That's my perspective just from reading your comments. If I had to hear all day around the house the kind of stuff you post on the forum, it would stress me out and I might get a bit grumpy myself. Maybe your husband likes the 'spunkiness' since he married you. I don't know. This is something for you to pray about and consider.

I realize you are going through some issues at home, and so you might be going through a season where you are a bit 'wound up' on some of these issues and it might be coming through on the forum, and your style might normally be a little more laid back. I understand that's a possibility.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

I didn't respect my husband LONG before he had to stop working...

And...what stress would he have in life when I'm the one working and paying the bills and coming home to an angry, often abusive man who would blow up if I was 5 minutes later than HE thought I should be? How could he have stresses when he had a wife who took worked all day, took care of him AND did the lion's share of the housework? His answer to "stress" at one time was to step out on me...he had an affair. So...tell me again how I should respect someone who lived in my home, destroyed my things, called me a variety of horrible names, slept around on me, spent my money and treated me like rubbish? Because he's a man?

 

[LinkH]

Ya know...someone who makes such a big deal over how men are supposed to be respected probably is in a situation where he isn't respected. Maybe at home, maybe in the workplace and feels a need to push this issue to other women because of his own ego issues...

Therefore I have taken all the writings by a certain person for what they're worth...

I could apply the same reasoning to your statements about your education and how you've run construction projects and conclude that you must not have graduated high school and never managed anyone. Would that be a fair conclusion?

You haven't been here as long as I have, but I've been very transparent about my own background. I posted a message with a title something like 'Amazing answer to prayer' a few years back. My wife was pregnant and just about anything I did or said made her upset. I said something so harmless and mundane one night that I couldn't figure out why it made her upset. She actually left the house without telling me. She's never done that before or since. She called me from an older Phlippino lady friend of her's house. She was safe and she'd get back in time in the morning, so I told her to stay. The lady she was talking with could comfort her.

Then I laid out 7 or so really detailed prayer requests before the Lord about my wife, talking about a wife's role in marriage. A few weeks before, my wife had been really irritable toward me and bumped me out of the way over the way I'd put dishes in the dishwasher (wasn't her way.) It occurred to me how incredibly disrespectful that was. Then I realized I only brought up Biblical woman's roles in marriage if we had an argument, and hadn't prayed about it on a regular basis. I was falling short as a husband in that area.

So here on that night when she was gone, I laid out these prayer requests, detailed requests that had to do with how I saw her thinking something, suspected or somehow perceived she was accepting a 'flaming arrow'-- a thought from the enemy about me-- and then she told me what it was, and she'd totally misinterpreted my motives from something I said. I prayed about stuff I'd prayed about before and not talked through with her, about how her mom and step-dad's example growing up had left her with certain ideas about the role of men and women, asking God to tell her things about that. I asked God to talk to her about the negative way she'd view me at times as if something spiritually was wrong with me that she couldn't articulate), I prayed about her duties in marriage as per I Peter 3. I asked the Lord to speak to her about all these things, argued my case as for why it was His will to do so according to His word, reminded Him that anything we asked according to His will, He would do it, and really believed He would.

A couple of nights later, she came home from a Bible study focused on changing areas of character, spiritual deliverance, etc. She asked me to sit on the couch next to her. Uh-oh. Did she want to argue about something? She seemed rather sweet and inviting, though, which was different from what this grumpy pregnancy had been like so far.

I sat next to her and she started complimenting me on being a good husband. She said her group leader at the Bible study had asked if anyone had anger problems. She thought, no she didn't. Then the person said if you have ever gotten angry at how your husband does the dishes, you might have anger problems. Uh-oh. Then she said the Lord started talking to her.

One by one, she walked me through five of my seven prayer requests. Even the detailed stuff about how seeing her dad and step-mom's marriage had effected her. It was so incredibly detailed, just what I had prayed about.

For the next couple of weeks, from time to time, my wife would be standing around crying. She'd remember some harsh things he said to me, or like when I'd want to pray with her when she was upset how she'd keep her back to me in bed and say, 'you can pray for me.' Stuff like that. She asked forgiveness. Of course I gave it. Her tears were tears of repentance. I remember we'd stay up late talking, just like those conversations when we first got to know each other. I remember staying up until 2 AM talking with her. One of her comments was how what the Lord had done in her heart had brought her so much more peace than she'd had before.

She was always a good wife in a lot of ways, always a hard worker. She always had morals and values. But since then, she has really improved greatly as a wife in so many ways and we get along better and better. She doesn't get upset about small stuff (and non issues) as much. A little disagreement doesn't turn into hours of the cold shoulder often. She is quicker to make up over such things. She shows me more respect. But one really important thing is that she's growing in character and becoming more Christ-like. These are good things for her.

I'm very happy with her as a wife. I realize that she's really a prize as a wife, just the whole package, character, devotion to the Lord, trying to really be a wife like the Bible teaches, her looks, skills, and personality. I'm really blessed in this area.

When I first got married, I didn't pay much attention to these things. I was a bit passive in some ways and didn't step into a leadership role like I should have in a number of areas. That was actually something she craved for me to do. She's told me I've changed a lot for the better. She can probably point those areas out better than I can, just as I can identify the changes easier in her.

Since then, I've seen how important it is for married Christians to walk according to God's plan for us in marriage. That's one of the reasons I am a big proponent of Ephesians 5, Colossians 3, I Peter 3, and other passages. There is actually a lot of peace and joy in embracing these things.

 

[LinkH]

I didn't respect my husband LONG before he had to stop working...

And...what stress would he have in life when I'm the one working and paying the bills and coming home to an angry, often abusive man who would blow up if I was 5 minutes later than HE thought I should be? How could he have stresses when he had a wife who took worked all day, took care of him AND did the lion's share of the housework? His answer to "stress" at one time was to step out on me...he had an affair. So...tell me again how I should respect someone who lived in my home, destroyed my things, called me a variety of horrible names, slept around on me, spent my money and treated me like rubbish? Because he's a man?

It was wrong for your husband to have an affair. I'm not saying his behavior was right. But if you live with this man as your husband, you should treat him like a wife treats a husband. That means forgiving the affair in the past, treating him with respect as a husband. And you want to know how you should respect? You respect as unto the Lord. If the Lord saw fit to give you a job cleaning dirty toilets in this life, then clean toilets as if you are doing it for the Lord. If you are managing a project, then do it for the glory of God, treating it as if God is your line manager. The same thing goes with respecting your husband. You do it because it is God's will and to glorify God. Even if your husband was a decent caring man with a great job you still should respect him as unto the Lord.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

It was wrong for your husband to have an affair. I'm not saying his behavior was right. But if you live with this man as your husband, you should treat him like a wife treats a husband. That means forgiving the affair in the past, treating him with respect as a husband. And you want to know how you should respect? You respect as unto the Lord. If the Lord saw fit to give you a job cleaning dirty toilets in this life, then clean toilets as if you are doing it for the Lord. If you are managing a project, then do it for the glory of God, treating it as if God is your line manager. The same thing goes with respecting your husband. You do it because it is God's will and to glorify God. Even if your husband was a decent caring man with a great job you still should respect him as unto the Lord.

I respect and reverence my Lord and Savior because of what he did for me. That, in no way, shape or form translates to my husband.

 

[mkgal1]

Link, did you happen to see this video I posted here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7857264/

He describes his wife as standing on the bed---waking him in the middle of the night---and "not being so nice about it" as an "amazing" moment (in a good way). They are BOTH grateful for what came from that rant. What they were living for the years prior to that was what most "Christian" books instruct---and it wasn't "working". What worked was honesty. That's really the *only* thing I've ever observed (and experienced) to work. But---like RedPonyDriver has brought up---that takes TWO people that are willing to live in the truth. People that prefer an illusion will only get superficial relationships.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Link, did you happen to see this video I posted here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7857264/

He describes his wife as standing on the bed---waking him in the middle of the night---and "not being so nice about it" as an "amazing" moment (in a good way). They are BOTH grateful for what came from that rant. What they were living for the years prior to that was what most "Christian" books instruct---and it wasn't "working". What worked was honesty. That's really the *only* thing I've ever observed (and experienced) to work. But---like RedPonyDriver has brought up---that takes TWO people that are willing to live in the truth. People that prefer an illusion will only get superficial relationships.

Sometimes the explosion is the only thing that clears the air. I know it worked well here...someone got the wake up call...and is attempting to correct his cranio-rectal inversion.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Okay...I just got home and only read one of the first posts since I've been gone. I could not read past the part where Link says that women's role is to respect and defer to their husbands. I'm sorry, but if my husband were to make some foolish decision, there is NO WAY I will "defer" to him just because he is my husband. It is NOT my role to defer to foolishness or to ignorance or to abuse or to orders or to whatever else a man might do to exert that kind of power over his wife, including being the ultimate decision maker. Respect =/= deference. This is where the whole conversation will fall to pieces, Link, because now it is going to spiral out of control with the whole "submission" thing because that is what some men (maybe you?) think submission is - deference. I already told you how you can earn respect on this board...and that is NOT the way to do it. Sorry.

 

[LinkH]

Okay...I just got home and only read one of the first posts since I've been gone. I could not read past the part where Link says that women's role is to respect and defer to their husbands. I'm sorry, but if my husband were to make some foolish decision, there is NO WAY I will "defer" to him just because he is my husband. It is NOT my role to defer to foolishness or to ignorance or to abuse or to orders or to whatever else a man might do to exert that kind of power over his wife, including being the ultimate decision maker.

I thought from what you said your husband is a decent guy who treats you well.

Respect =/= deference. This is where the whole conversation will fall to pieces, Link, because now it is going to spiral out of control with the whole "submission" thing because that is what some men (maybe you?) think submission is - deference. I already told you how you can earn respect on this board...and that is NOT the way to do it. Sorry.

That's not where I was going with it. Your the one venturing into the off-topic topic here. There is another thread for that. The Bible has plenty to say on that topic as well.

 

[HannahT]

I thought from what you said your husband is a decent guy who treats you well.

I think this is part of the problem, Link has a issue with context. (shrugs) Maybe he has issue following it.

Content - the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.

She didn't say her husband wasn't a decent man. She was using a context of when it would foolish to follow the 'command' due to circumstances.

I have no idea how you got from point a to point b, but if you have problems context - I guess it would make more sense.

 

[HannahT]

Hmmm. Now that I think about it could be he is reading into things that aren't there.

I'm sorry, but if my husband were to make some foolish decision, there is NO WAY I will "defer" to him just because he is my husband. It is NOT my role to defer to foolishness or to ignorance or to abuse or to orders or to whatever else a man might do to exert that kind of power over his wife, including being the ultimate decision maker. Respect =/= deference.

Notice the first sentence. "IF"my husband....

She didn't say he was, but Link assumed that is what she saying.

Then he blew off the point she made - never addressed it - and made some comment that wasn't even in context of the statement (I thought you said you H was a decent guy).

I call that a diversion. He has done that a number of times, so it likely unfruitful to continue the conversation. He is unwilling to admit the context of what she said, and instead is standing his ground on his beliefs.

He has that option of course, but the diversions make the whole discussion a bit disingenuous. Its rather disrespectful in my eyes, because it doesn't make things genuine.

I mean he would rather just assume people are - what did he say again - egalitarian, feminist, etc - which I guess gives him permission to blow off good points. Your just spinning your wheels if something approaches debates or discussions like that.

I mean its almost like crazy making.

 

[ValleyGal]

Thank you, Hannah. Yes, IDay is a very wise man and he has not made any foolish decisions that I can think of. But even the wisest man on earth can make foolish decisions now and then. It would be foolish of him - or anyone - to start drinking again after 18 years of sobriety. It would be foolish of him to up and quit his master's degree when he is this close to graduation. IF he WERE to make those foolish decisions, I would absolutely not support it and I would not "defer" simply because he is my husband. In fact, because I love him, I will not allow "bad" into our marriage - like starting drinking again or whatever. And I will respect him enough to not allow him to give up on something he has worked so hard for like his degree. That's called boundaries, and simple "deference" is not a boundary-embracing concept. Thank God I chose my husband wisely!

Well, since Link diverted and then mentioned I am the one who went off topic (although he is the one who brought it up), I will go back and read the last page of posts. Maybe he did go somewhere else with it. We'll see if my post is still relevant. If not, I have no problem admitting it.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Regarding boundaries, especially within a marriage...

I remember reading a blog by a woman who claims to be a mentor for Christian wives. She stated emphatically that boundaries were not a Christian concept and not biblical within marriage. LinkH sounds a lot like this woman's husband.

check out lorialexander.blogspot.com

 

[ValleyGal]

I respect and reverence my Lord and Savior because of what he did for me. That, in no way, shape or form translates to my husband.

Yes! This is exactly how I feel. And I must add...that there are conditions. Iric it was in 1 John where it says that we love him because he first loved us. Iow, he initiated and we responded. That means our love for him is conditional on his love for us. Had Jesus not done all he did, would any of us love him? Maybe a few... As a wife, I love my husband because he first showed his interest, his love. And I respect him because his love involved huge sacrifices on his part. He proved to me that he will put my own best interest above his, and that he will go literally thousands of miles in order to make that happen. A woman's respect for her husband is conditional on his love for her, just like as a church, we love him because he first loved us.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Yes! This is exactly how I feel. And I must add...that there are conditions. Iric it was in 1 John where it says that we love him because he first loved us. Iow, he initiated and we responded. That means our love for him is conditional on his love for us. Had Jesus not done all he did, would any of us love him? Maybe a few... As a wife, I love my husband because he first showed his interest, his love. And I respect him because his love involved huge sacrifices on his part. He proved to me that he will put my own best interest above his, and that he will go literally thousands of miles in order to make that happen. A woman's respect for her husband is conditional on his love for her, just like as a church, we love him because he first loved us.

Exactly...if you think about it, Christ EARNED our respect, our love and our reverence by what HE did for us...so the idea of "unconditional" only happens AFTER the initial transaction.

 

[ValleyGal]

And now for my response for the last couple of pages: Wow. Just wow, on some of this stuff.

Feminists and egalitarians now push the idea that men should be 'nice' and share power in the marriage in an egalitarian manner.
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Sharing power in marriage has a lot to do with mutual submission…Eph 5:21. Jesus shares his power with the church, and we are his hands and feet here, speaking and acting on his behalf. He has given the church full authority. So if marriage is supposed to be like the love relationship between Christ and the church, then yes, men need to be giving that kind of power and authority to their wives.

Why include a bit of hierarchy in certain passages on marriage in the New Testament?
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He didn’t. But that is a matter of interpretation.

I'm not against a woman working outside the home. But it can be difficult for the woman, psychologically, if she has 'economic independence' if her mind is being pumped full of a philosophy of rebellion against God, against her husband, and against the word of God.
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She can get this from being married to the wrong man, too. Or tv. Lol. Not against her working outside the home. Women have been doing it since time began.

You made a comment on it. Not something I found persuasive or that really dealt with the heart of the issue. You aren't a language scholar, are you? I'm not a Greek scholar. Greek dictionaries render it as 'fear', 'deference', and 'reverence' for the word. You think of 'reverence' as a specifically religious word. Not everyone does.
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I rely heavily on my Greek Theological Dictionary, I know how to use it and I know what it says about this.

If the Bible tells husbands to love their wives, how is that 'conditional.' If the Bible tells wives to respect their husbands, how is that 'conditional.'
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I already explained that and you dismissed it as irrelevant.

We also have a culture that discourages respect of husbands.
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That’s your perspective. I don’t see that at all. Quite the contrary; I still see a lot of women giving their husbands a lot of respect and tons of grace till they’ve simply had enough.

The women on this forum seem to be predominantly egalitarian or feminist, with some being a bit more 'far left' than others on the issue. Like I said, I took a Sunday School class recently. We had 18 people. I didn't hear any reactions from the women along those lines. My wife didn't mention anything like that when she talked about the women's discussions on the book. They didn't come back from them seeming angry about the book.
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Church context. Perhaps you attend a church that is far right conservative and is obviously patriarchal. No surprise there. If this book were studied in my church, which practices egalitarian marriage, the book would be laughed out upon reading the contents alone.

Constantly? A Christian book on marriage should address these topics because the New Testament only has a handful of commands to wives on marriage, and this is what those commands are about.
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Constantly – by men in the church who fixate on their wives’ submission rather than on taking responsibility to love and letting her figure out her own part.

Exactly how many male posters have been on this thread in the last 10 or so pages? I'm in here talking with a handful of women, and I'm supposed to instruct the men. There is nothing wrong with me pointing out what the Bible says on a forum like this and pointing out some of the problems when people want to soften up what it says a bit.
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There are men’s forums. You are not our teacher. It is not up to you to go around fixing us, telling other men’s wives that we need to respect our husbands, defer to them, etc. We came here to discuss a book – not the substance of the book. If you want to assume you are a teacher of this kind of information, go and teach the men how to love their wives rather than preach about how women need to be respectful.

When you as a man and husband focus more on that plank in your own eye, then we will be more willing to allow you to take the speck out of our own eyes.
ValleyGal, what basis do you have for accusing me of some kind of sin? You might not agree with me, and you might not like what I say. But you don't really have any basis for accusing me of some kind of sin. You don't know the inner workings of my marriage any better than I know yours. You don't have any legitimate reason to think that I don't love my wife. It's not reasonable for you to think of me as having some kind of collective male plank in my eye because of other men who don't love their wives.
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I never accused you of sin. I’m saying that, imo, you do not have the right to teach us to respect our husbands when you have not earned our respect. I even told you flat out how you can earn our respect on these boards. Once you have it, we might listen to you. But so far, imo, you are not qualified to teach us that we need to unconditionally respect our husbands.

When she relaxed on that, and just started showing more respect, things improved in our marriage.
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It amazes me that men want the power in the marriage, yet they expect their wife to do all the adapting, which places far more marital responsibility onto the wife’s shoulders than he has. Imo, power and responsibility go together. If you want the power in your marriage, you should be the one adapting to her rather her adapting to you.

It sure is a lot better to have a marriage where you can go home and be yourself around your spouse without having to live up to some kind of standard, jump through hoops, or impress the other person all the time.
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Yes, it is…and this is exactly how my husband and I can be with each other because we both love and respect each other for who we are right now, working together towards Christlikeness in all humility and in all shared power. I love the fact that I can be myself and still know that my husband loves and respects me. …and I him….in our egalitarian marriage.

Link, I also read parts of your post about your own marriage. Just because you and your wife went through the experiences you did, does not mean that your way is the right way. It simply means that is what worked for you. My husband and I have an egalitarian marriage where power is shared and we actively seek conflict management and each other’s best interest. We value and respect each other’s opinions and mutually influence each other. We interpret the Bible to say that because Jesus has given us all authority through his Spirit, that the bride has equal authority – and neither of us abuse this honour. This is what works for us in our marriage and we are doing what we believe is biblical. Do not try to teach us otherwise because it won’t work. We will believe the Bible and believe in the union of Christ and the church over hierarchy any day.

 

[ValleyGal]

I don't know what's happening with the formatting, but I can't fix the quotes. In my post, the indented parts are quotes from previous posts.