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Love and Respect

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mkgal1

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since Jesus told His disciples that the Father would love those who kept His commandment (in a passage in John 14 or 15 where He taught them to love one another.)
Right---and that really goes along with the different levels of love/respect and trust we have for others. IMV.....love = wanting what is best for a person. In RPD's situation.....she's described wanting that for both her husband and herself. If she didn't love/respect him (as a human being--at this point)....she wouldn't be going through counseling with him. Also in my opinion.....when some people hear the word (or read) "respect" it conjures up the idea of admiring someone. That's far up on the scale. To disrespect someone (IMO) would be to treat them as if they didn't matter......to ignore their words and emotions (IOW....dehumanize them---render them unnecessary). To me.....*that's* disrespect. No one has agreed that's acceptable. There does come a time when there's too great of a gap in order to have a relationship with a person (and it's the same with Christ). Not everyone is called His children---but that doesn't mean He doesn't have love for them (wanting something better for them).


But John 3 says that God so loved the world. The world didn't earn that. Romans 3 says that God so commended His love toward us, that when we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

But Jesus didn't put conditions on 'love thy neighbor.' Neither did the Torah. Ephesians doesn't put limitations and conditions on wives respecting their husbands either.

As a person......no, it doesn't. That's what Hannah was pointing out (the levels of respect). She'd written:

Respect has a baseline, and it grows with time. As the relationship evolves so does the level of respect. When you do things that are extremely damaging, and downright dangerous - your line of respect tends to suffer. On the opposite end of that when the relationship grows and matures in positive ways - so does the level of respect.

There is "relational love/respect" and a general love/respect for humanity (which means wanting what's best for them). Just as you're describing above (Link)---there *are* qualifications (limitations) to be considered God's children---just as every person has a right to set qualifications for whom is in their life (RPD is no different). Her qualifications are just what's best for her husband.....herself....and their marriage (and that's how we can know they are what would be pleasing to God). If there was selfish motivation in her qualifications---that would be a different story.
 
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mkgal1

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Personally, I don't see these posts as "arguing". This is a HUGE part of our faith, and it's often misused (you know--things like.....someone found guilty of stealing from us saying, "but you NEED to forgive me and let me keep the key to your house! The Bible says so.")---so I think any and all discussion is good.
 
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RedPonyDriver

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RedPonyDriver,

I just want to say that I am not against you. I want you to do well and succeed. If you guys reconcile your marriage, I want it to be successful. If you do work on reconciliation, I believe having this attitude of respect/reverence will help you. I realize when people hurt us, it can be difficult to forgive. It can also be difficult to love and respect. I just don't think 'lowering the bar' on how we are to be is helpful. We are being conformed to the image of Christ, and Christ suffered unjustly and when He was reviled, reviled not again, as Peter put it 'leaving us an example, that we should follow in His steps.' We should imitate Jesus' example of forgiving and doing good to those who have done wrong to us. If your husband has repented of the things he's done in the past, and you follow the example of Jesus, that's a good start on moving forward.

I wish you success. And in your career, I wish you ongoing success, too.

You need to understand the difference between "reverence", "respect" and forgiveness. Trust was broken, respect was lost. I can forgive, no problem, I have forgiven him. However...respect and trust have to be earned back. Like mkgal1 said...if someone had a key to your house, came in and stole from you, how likely would you be to give them another key to your house even if you forgave them? Not bloody likely, right? Same thing...
 
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mkgal1

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I think y'all are being a bit unfair to Link.

No one has told Link that he should "repent" and given him "something to think about" and implied he needed to change direction on his life--so I don't really believe anyone is being unfair to him.
 
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mkgal1

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If your husband has repented of the things he's done in the past, and you follow the example of Jesus, that's a good start on moving forward.

When someone has been characterized a certain way---for a long time---"repentance" isn't something that occurs as an event---it's a process. It's wise to give these things time---and to allow for a person to demonstrate over time that they've truly repented.
 
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LinkH

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We are not talking about forgetting an anniversary or being "cross". We are talking about a husband who has violated the marital covenant by abusing his wife. Now...what say ye?

The way some folk talk about only respecting if your loved on here seems to me to apply across the board.
 
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mkgal1

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The way some folk talk about only respecting if your loved on here seems to me to apply across the board.

Okay....I think I got the sentence now.

This is what makes things confusing. You (yourself, Link) posted about how Christ said, "The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them" (John 14:21). That's a deeper love than, "God so loved the world".

What we're saying (those that you're accusing of "supporting the idea of not having to follow what the Bible says") is really the same thing. We can respect everyone---no matter what (not "admire"....but realize they are human and want what's best for them---not wish them harm).....but that doesn't mean that secures a spot in our life. That's no different than the different levels of love that are shown in those two passages (John 14:21 and John 3:16).
 
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LinkH

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He also doesn't appear to believe that divorce is ever acceptable. It would be one thing if I saw him making posts where he admonished men that they were well within their rights and ought to divorce in the case of infidelity - but then told women that they needed to stay with abusers...but from what I can gather - he never advises for divorce...ever...no matter what.

I think generally it's a bad idea and potentially dangerous to suggest people divorce on the forum. I've even seen it here on the forum where one person posts their version and everyone jumps on the spouse's case. Then the spouse shows up and the story is different. And the story of 'my spouse did X horrible thing' could just be a snapshot of the one worst thing that person did in their marriage when their spouse was really doing some bad things, too.

Marriage is a serious thing, and it bothers me in forums like this that a strange can post, "My spouse is verbally abusive," and, if forum rules allow, some posters have a hair trigger response recommending separation or divorce. A good marriage counselor would probably want to hear both sides of the story. Even well-intentioned people give a skewed picture of marital problems.

One of my wife's friend called once talking about her marital problems. They had lots of kids and were facing eviction. She said when she'd talk about their problems, he'd say why don't I just die, or why don't I just go live on the beach. She said he didn't care about the family. It was all about him on the beach.

Then I saw the couple interact. The woman was a vicious harpy toward her husband. I'd never seen anything like it. He'd say stuff about just dying or sleeping on the beach because he was point out that she was talking to him like dirt in a non-direct way, as if he weren't fit to live. But she wasn't picking up on what he was saying. He had this sort of 'agree and amplify' method of dealing with her outrageous statements.

And times my wife would disagree and to hear how she interpreted how I was, my intentions, what happened, I realized it is a lot different from her perceptions.

I've also read a few posts put on blogs about man whose wife went on a religious forum, told an incomplete version of their marriage problems, and was advised to separate and took the advice. Then to read his side of the story, the advice sure seemed totally unjustified.

Encouraging someone to move out or end a marriage is a really big deal. It's one thing to show empathy to someone going to a rough time. It's another to tell that person to leave their spouse when the Bible says, 'let not the wife depart from her husband' and 'let not the husband put away his wife.' Also, telling a wife not to respect her husband is also a dangerous and damaging thing.

I believe in the power of the gospel to transform people, even bad people like people who have abused others, lied, cheated, stole. Things like that.

If a woman is married to a man who chases her around the house with a chainsaw, intent to kill her, I don't expect her to stay there. But I don't believe a woman should remarry if she leaves her husband because he is violent or if he went insane. I still wouldn't tell a woman like this not to respect her husband. She should still have a measure of respect that governs the things she says about her husband, who she talks to her problems about, not calling him names or insulting him. I don't think separated or divorce men should bad-mouth their wives or ex's. I do believe men should respect their wives, and that Ephesians 5:33's talk of 'fear' is a bit different from the way we usually use respect.

Even after affairs, I generally think it may be best to reconcile the marriage if the offending spouse repents, especially if there are children involved.

Btw, I read your story of your ex-, and I haven't pronounced you a sinner for your decision either.
 
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RedPonyDriver

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I believe in the power of the gospel to transform people, even bad people like people who have abused others, lied, cheated, stole. Things like that.
If a woman is married to a man who chases her around the house with a chainsaw, intent to kill her, I don't expect her to stay there. But I don't believe a woman should remarry if she leaves her husband because he is violent or if he went insane. I still wouldn't tell a woman like this not to respect her husband. She should still have a measure of respect that governs the things she says about her husband, who she talks to her problems about, not calling him names or insulting him. I don't think separated or divorce men should bad-mouth their wives or ex's. I do believe men should respect their wives, and that Ephesians 5:33's talk of 'fear' is a bit different from the way we usually use respect.

Even after affairs, I generally think it may be best to reconcile the marriage if the offending spouse repents, especially if there are children involved.

Btw, I read your story of your ex-, and I haven't pronounced you a sinner for your decision either.

Ok...now...here's some questions for you...
Someone had a key to your house. While you were at work, they came in and stole from you...you confront them and then forgive them. Does that mean you will give them another key to your house?

Regarding divorce/remarriage...
Marriage is a covenant, right? It takes two parties to make the covenant, right? Now, if one person breaks the covenant, why should the other party hang on to that covenant? Is the covenant still valid if one party has broken it? The marriage covenant is beautifully described in Ephesians 5. There are two parties and their roles are pretty well laid out. So, if one breaks the covenant, why should the other be held to it?

Now...I would like direct answers to these questions, no dancing around.

Thank you.
 
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DZoolander

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lol - that's cool that you haven't pronounced me a sinner. To be honest, though (and I'm not meaning to say this in a snide or argumentative fashion), I stopped asking for other people's impressions on matters of faith (or my "righteousness" or "sinfulness") a long long time ago. I keep my own counsel.

Now, I'll discuss things if I think the subject warrants it, or I'll explain my reasoning, but generally speaking I'm disinterested in other people's opinions on the morality/immorality/ethical nature of situations I face or decisions I make. I figure my actions are between me and God alone - and my goal is to be righteous. Do I fail - I'm sure I do. But - I figure that my opinion applied genuinely to a situation with the goal of doing the right thing as I feel/understand things is just as good as anyone else's opinion...so why bother bringing the peanut gallery into the mix?

I, also, will rarely ever go down the road of recommending divorce. My stance is usually "if that's your decision, then approach it intelligently and make sure it's what you want to do."

When I was a kid - one of the biggest lessons my dad ever taught me was never to get involved in other people's relationships - and really to never dispense advice. People generally don't really want your advice, nor will they take it. On the internet - sure - there's a degree of removal that makes it somewhat "different"... but in real life - giving people advice only stands to make things awkward in the long run.
 
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DZoolander

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Now, sometimes someone will offend me to the degree that I break my own stand about not giving my opinion of their relationship (like that Dobie guy) - but - generally it's best to just bat ideas around. lol
 
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RedPonyDriver

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lol - that's cool that you haven't pronounced me a sinner. To be honest, though (and I'm not meaning to say this in a snide or argumentative fashion), I stopped asking for other people's impressions on matters of faith (or my "righteousness" or "sinfulness") a long long time ago. I keep my own counsel.

Now, I'll discuss things if I think the subject warrants it, or I'll explain my reasoning, but generally speaking I'm disinterested in other people's opinions on the morality/immorality/ethical nature of situations I face or decisions I make. I figure my actions are between me and God alone - and my goal is to be righteous. Do I fail - I'm sure I do. But - I figure that my opinion applied genuinely to a situation with the goal of doing the right thing as I feel/understand things is just as good as anyone else's opinion...so why bother bringing the peanut gallery into the mix?

I, also, will rarely ever go down the road of recommending divorce. My stance is usually "if that's your decision, then approach it intelligently and make sure it's what you want to do."

When I was a kid - one of the biggest lessons my dad ever taught me was never to get involved in other people's relationships - and really to never dispense advice. People generally don't really want your advice, nor will they take it. On the internet - sure - there's a degree of removal that makes it somewhat "different"... but in real life - giving people advice only stands to make things awkward in the long run.

Kinda like when us kids were teenagers...my dad would tell us "when I want your opinion, I'll give it to you"....he really wasn't serious, but the poor man was dealing with a house full of rather mouthy teenagers...
 
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LinkH

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Pretty much!

Getting other people's advice is bad enough... Getting advice backed by what the person thinks God believes is particularly offensive...lol

Is that meant as advice.
:)

Btw, I need to learn to use smiley's more after some of the comments I make, lets they get quoted. I can't see smiley's on my screen the way I have my color scheme set up.
 
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LinkH

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This is the philosophy I try to put into practice:
Romans 15:15
I myself am convinced, my brothers and sisters, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with knowledge and competent to instruct one another.
(NIV)

Leviticus 19
17 “‘Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt.

18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.
(NIV)

Hebrews 3:13
But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called "Today," so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness.
(NIV)
 
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Annessa3

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this: each of us is competent to discern what is true for ourselves. That we are each full of goodness.

so others in the Forum may have something valid to teach as much as you do, Link.

Love your neighbor as yourself.
1 Corinth 13:6 RSV Love does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right.

ENCOURAGE trumps rebuke, brother.
 
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