Losing the fear of an eternal hell

[Jipsah]

Christianity cannot divorce itself from Judaism.

"He came unto His own, and His own and His own received Him not." The Jews rejected, and still reject, Christ. The divorce is their doing.

Replacement theology is a lie.

The "it's all about Israel" attitude is nonsense.

 

[Jipsah]

Of course it did. Replacement theology is a lie.

And "replacement theology" is?

 

[Jipsah]

Jesus was a Jew. Not a Christian.
Surprise!

Jesus is God Incarnate. Surprise!

 

[Saint Steven]

From what I get, every knee will bow at Christ’s second coming. I’m not entirely sure, but that’s what I’ve read from a Got Questions article. Something else I wasn’t aware of, under the earth could be referring to demonic beings, while those on earth refers to humanity. That’s just one interpretation. Though, not all humanity will be on earth if others have passed on.

Consider this...

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?
Answer: the realm of the dead

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.” 9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6 NRSV
For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

 

[didactics]

Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: “Whom shall I send, And who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.” And He said, “Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ “Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and return and be healed.”
(Isaiah 6:8-10)

I just thought it was funny because in one sense you are saying not to think of God as a holy terrorist for believing in ECT, but you conclude with saying that we are heading for destruction essentially.

Maybe if we stop believing God is a holy terrorist that needs to be worshipped by lesser beings in order to be self assured he's God, we'd find our way away from sinful men's god ideal and instead find the Creator that is love.

 

[WintersDust]

I just thought it was funny because in one sense you are saying not to think of God as a holy terrorist for believing in ECT, but you conclude with saying that we are heading for destruction essentially.

Wrong post. I never said nor implied that.

 

[WintersDust]

And "replacement theology" is?

A lie.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You're not I'm afraid. I was hoping for, but not expecting, a straight answer to a straight question. And I was not disappointed.

Alright. Forgive my density then. Please clarify your question since I tend not to think that "simply" exegeting the Bible necessarily provides answers to any and every question we may have, particularly where the mix of so-called "free will" and "fear" are concerned.

 

[Jipsah]

That's not what ECT folks believe. Would you call it eternal life if you suffered conscious torment eternally?

You have to be alive to suffer torment. Let's not play word games, shall we?

There is a reason why a distinction is made by calling the one eternal punishment and the other eternal life.

Sure is. A doctrinal distinction.

The former is a very downgraded life.

The dead can't be tormented; they're dead. The damned, according to ECT folks, are being tormented, eternally. That requires eternal life. Some gift, huh?

 

[Jipsah]

A lie.

I take that to mean you're not altogether sure what the term means. No surprise there.

 

[didactics]

Wrong post. I never said nor implied that.

Well, if you don't mind (and I am trying to be sincere) could you please clarify what you mean in the following?

If we live for God while fearing Hell, we're on the wrong path to the wrong God.

 

[WintersDust]

"He came unto His own, and His own and His own received Him not." The Jews rejected, and still reject, Christ. The divorce is their doing.

The "it's all about Israel" attitude is nonsense.

You cannot debate scripture having obviously never read it.

Are you also a member of Christogenea forums?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hmm said: ↑
You're not I'm afraid. I was hoping for, but not expecting, a straight answer to a straight question. And I was not disappointed.

Seems like he is right. Where's the beef?

I suppose the beef would be found in the fear and trembling before God that we're all suppose to have as a part of our faith in Christ?

 

[WintersDust]

I take that to mean you're not altogether sure what the term means. No surprise there.

How foolish.

 

[WintersDust]

Well, if you don't mind (and I am trying to be sincere) could you please clarify what you mean in the following?

Trying to be sincere?

 

[Saint Steven]

I suppose the beef would be found in the fear and trembling before God that we're all suppose to have as a part of our faith in Christ?

No need for fear and trembling if you are in a right relationship, me thinks.
Either way, Abba Father is always happy to see his kids. (behaving, or misbehaving)

 

[Der Alte]

...

You have to be alive to suffer torment. Let's not play word games, shall we?
Sure is. A doctrinal distinction.
The dead can't be tormented; they're dead. The damned, according to ECT folks, are being tormented, eternally. That requires eternal life. Some gift, huh?

Have you ever read Lk 16:23?

Luke 16:22-23
(22) The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
(23) and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.​

This dead guy was certainly being tormented. He had some kind of conscious awareness. And no, it is NOT a parable. A parable compares something known/understood with something unknown/not understood. The 5 ECF who quoted/referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual.
1. Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-
2. Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
3. Tertullian IX A Treatise On The Soul Chap. VII
4. The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
5. Methodius . [A.D. 260-312] XIX he Discourse on the Resurrection. Part III.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

No need for fear and trembling if you are in a right relationship, me thinks.
Either way, Abba Father is always happy to see his kids. (behaving, or misbehaving)

Thanks for your answer, Steven. I'm so relieved now to know that Paul was wrong.

Of course, I probably shouldn't have too much fear and trembling anyway since we don't know for sure that the letter to the Philippians is even authentically Pauline anyway.

 

[Jipsah]

I wonder where this conclusion came from, that "... hell is everlasting [is] because sin against an infinite, eternal being—God Himself—requires an infinite, eternal punishment." Appears to be an apologetic designed to absolve God of hell. Blame the victim mentality. It certainly taints what anyone would call justice.

Precisely. And there are a number of those. "Sinners all hate God" when a good many never give the existence of God a second thought, or those who for whatever reason follow a false god. "Sinners will never repent". Fact is a great many do, and without the incentive of torture. "God doesn't want anyone to go to be tormented forever" Then why do you believe that He designed eternal torture as the fate for everyone who dies in unbelief? And "God doesn't want people to roast in hell, but there's just nothing He can do." Seriously? He made the rules, but He can't change them? And why did He design it that way in the first place?

There are lots of them, all designed to make the idea of eternal torment seem less horrific, and thus make God look less like a vicious tyrant.

 

[Saint Steven]

Thanks for your answer, Steven. I'm so relieved now to know that Paul was wrong.

Of course, I probably shouldn't have too much fear and trembling anyway since we don't know for sure that the letter to the Philippians is even authentically Pauline anyway.

I knew you had provided a misquote, so no worries.

I suppose the beef would be found in the fear and trembling before God that we're all suppose to have as a part of our faith in Christ?

Philippians 2:12 NIV
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,