Losing the fear of an eternal hell

[Der Alte]

...

Saint Steven said: ↑
Not according to the definition of "acknowledge". Not a forced confession.
Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).
Seriously?
To fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly, whole-heartedly, without reservation... is under compulsion? NO WAY !!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah! Seriously! Frequently Asked Questions - Online Bible

The Online Bible Strongs is not the same as my Exhaustive Strongs Concordance. Why is that?
We used the Strong’s system but the actual Greek and Hebrew to implement the numbers. By doing this we corrected about 15000 errors/omissions in the Strong’s concordance.​

 

[Saint Steven]

I was hoping for, but not expecting, a straight answer to a straight question. And I was not disappointed.

Well... is there any such thing in philosophy? Answers are of little importance. Questions are king.

 

[didactics]

Well... is there any such thing in philosophy? Answers are of little importance. Questions are king.

Speaking of questions, why do I even bother asking you whether hell ends at the moment of Christ's second advent? You don't even think hell exists in the first place do you?

 

[Hmm]

Well... is there any such thing in philosophy?

Philosophy in it's best representation can shed a light but it has to be applied. Simply repeating keywords like exegesis and hermeneutics is not going to get us very far. My above exchange felt like talking to a scientist who keeps stating the principles of the scientific method such as induction, testability and deduction but won't or can't apply them to a specific question. At some point a scientist has to actually apply the scientific method and produce something concrete and useful even though of course thus will always be tentative and provisional. The boss won't be too impressed if instead of that he just kept saying that the scientific process needs to be applied in this situation...

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You're not I'm afraid. I was hoping for, but not expecting, a straight answer to a straight question. And I was not disappointed.

Were you this smug and disrespectful in your math classes at the university?

 

[Hmm]

Were you this smug and disrespectful in your math classes at the university?

More ad homs, sad sigh. But carry on if it helps.

 

[WintersDust]

"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love." 1 John 4:18

Jesus we the infinite breadth and length and height of God’s love for us. That's why the Bible urges us to fully embrace our faith because only then can we begin to trust and rest in God's love. "There is no fear in love."

The name "Noah" comes from the Hebrew word "Noach" which means "rest" or "repose", and perhaps resting in God's love is the true meaning of embarking on God's Ark.

Fear robs us of our assurance of God’s love. Every time we doubt His love we step into the realm of fear, and our relationship with God is stolen from us. And this is all that we get from the concept of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT). The gift that keeps on giving /s.

So don't be afraid that God is going to torment or throw us in a literal lake of fire. He's not that sort of guy. He is as He is in Jesus so we can confidently throw such fears away.

"Indeed, I have given you authority to tread on snakes and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will hurt you." Luke 10:19.

So let's put the fear of eternal hell under our feet and stamp the notion out once and for all.

There was an old saying, one I have as a magnetic sticker on my car.
''You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott

Some people ask, what's the point of the Bible being created?
The answer, Control.

Why does God need over 40 men over centuries to write his message to the world. And all those councils who then elected to decide on a fitting socio-political narrative in order to Canonize the final message.

Paul said all of nature is proof of God, and as such we are without excuse to not believe.

If God is live and sovereign, why would we believe one if his messages to us is, love me,obey me,or I'll burn you in Hell for eternity?

And then men claiming the mantel of his authority did just that to the living. Tortured,burned to death, for any number of perceived sins.

There is no such thing in Jewish religious literature as an eternal suffering in a bottomless pit of fire and brimstone that's awaiting sinners who will suffer eternally because the Omniscient Sovereign Creator deemed them worthy for disappointing him.

Maybe if we stop believing God is a holy terrorist that needs to be worshipped by lesser beings in order to be self assured he's God, we'd find our way away from sinful men's god ideal and instead find the Creator that is love.

Our journey in this life is a path between the darkness and the light.And each of those elements depends on the other to be recognized as itself. Without light we know not darkness. Without darkness we know not light.

Life is choice. We navigate this world within the realm of both. Using the tools God gives us to know the direction to take. Either of which lends an education in trust and letting go of our cleaving to the material world, which is transient,impermanent, as are we.

This world can be made hell. Or heaven.

We have to remember though one thing Jesus taught. The kingdom of God is within.

If we live for God while fearing Hell, we're on the wrong path to the wrong God.

 

[didactics]

There was an old saying, one I have as a magnetic sticker on my car.
''You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott

Some people ask, what's the point of the Bible being created?
The answer, Control.

Why does God need over 40 men over centuries to write his message to the world. And all those councils who then elected to decide on a fitting socio-political narrative in order to Canonize the final message.

Paul said all of nature is proof of God, and as such we are without excuse to not believe.

If God is live and sovereign, why would we believe one if his messages to us is, love me,obey me,or I'll burn you in Hell for eternity?

And then men claiming the mantel of his authority did just that to the living. Tortured,burned to death, for any number of perceived sins.

There is no such thing in Jewish religious literature as an eternal suffering in a bottomless pit of fire and brimstone that's awaiting sinners who will suffer eternally because the Omniscient Sovereign Creator deemed them worthy for disappointing him.

Maybe if we stop believing God is a holy terrorist that needs to be worshipped by lesser beings in order to be self assured he's God, we'd find our way away from sinful men's god ideal and instead find the Creator that is love.

Our journey in this life is a path between the darkness and the light.And each of those elements depends on the other to be recognized as itself. Without light we know not darkness. Without darkness we know not light.

Life is choice. We navigate this world within the realm of both. Using the tools God gives us to know the direction to take. Either of which lends an education in trust and letting go of our cleaving to the material world, which is transient,impermanent, as are we.

This world can be made hell. Or heaven.

We have to remember though one thing Jesus taught. The kingdom of God is within.

If we live for God while fearing Hell, we're on the wrong path to the wrong God.

If we are on the wrong path to the wrong God does that mean we are trying to enter through the wide gate that leads to destruction? Or maybe we are trying to get to the right God but going about it the wrong way, which makes it a god of our own image.

 

[Der Alte]

There was an old saying, one I have as a magnetic sticker on my car.
''You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott
Some people ask, what's the point of the Bible being created?
The answer, Control.
Why does God need over 40 men over centuries to write his message to the world. And all those councils who then elected to decide on a fitting socio-political narrative in order to Canonize the final message.
Paul said all of nature is proof of God, and as such we are without excuse to not believe.
If God is live and sovereign, why would we believe one if his messages to us is, love me,obey me,or I'll burn you in Hell for eternity?
And then men claiming the mantel of his authority did just that to the living. Tortured,burned to death, for any number of perceived sins.
There is no such thing in Jewish religious literature as an eternal suffering in a bottomless pit of fire and brimstone that's awaiting sinners who will suffer eternally because the Omniscient Sovereign Creator deemed them worthy for disappointing him.
Maybe if we stop believing God is a holy terrorist that needs to be worshipped by lesser beings in order to be self assured he's God, we'd find our way away from sinful men's god ideal and instead find the Creator that is love.
Our journey in this life is a path between the darkness and the light.And each of those elements depends on the other to be recognized as itself. Without light we know not darkness. Without darkness we know not light.
Life is choice. We navigate this world within the realm of both. Using the tools God gives us to know the direction to take. Either of which lends an education in trust and letting go of our cleaving to the material world, which is transient,impermanent, as are we.
This world can be made hell. Or heaven.
We have to remember though one thing Jesus taught. The kingdom of God is within.
If we live for God while fearing Hell, we're on the wrong path to the wrong God.

What modern Jews believe about hell is irrelevant. Current Jewish beliefs have virtually no impact or effect on Christianity or Christian beliefs.
At this link is my post documenting the historical Jewish belief before and during the time of Jesus, in a place of eternal, fiery punishment for the unrighteous which they called both "Ge hinnom" and "Sheol" which are written in the 225 BC Septuagint [LXX] and the N.T. as "Ge Henna" and "Hades." And which ae identified as "Hell."
Link: Daily Christian Universalist Verses
Sources cited include the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, the 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud.
At this link is a previous post citing archaeological studies which document that Gehenna was never used as a trash dump.
Link: Daily Christian Universalist Verses

 

[WintersDust]

What modern Jews believe about hell is irrelevant. Current Jewish beliefs have virtually no impact or effect on Christianity or Christian beliefs.
At this link is my post documenting the historical Jewish belief before and during the time of Jesus, in a place of eternal, fiery punishment for the unrighteous which they called both "Ge hinnom" and "Sheol" which are written in the 225 BC Septuagint [LXX] and the N.T. as "Ge Henna" and "Hades." And which ae identified as "Hell."
Link: Daily Christian Universalist Verses
Sources cited include the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, the 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud.
At this link is a previous post citing archaeological studies which document that Gehenna was never used as a trash dump.
Link: Daily Christian Universalist Verses

Christianity cannot divorce itself from Judaism.

Replacement theology is a lie.

 

[Der Alte]

Christianity cannot divorce itself from Judaism.
Replacement theology is a lie.

Doesn't really address my post.

 

[WintersDust]

Doesn't really address my post.

Of course it did. Replacement theology is a lie.

 

[WintersDust]

If we are on the wrong path to the wrong God does that mean we are trying to enter through the wide gate that leads to destruction? Or maybe we are trying to get to the right God but going about it the wrong way, which makes it a god of our own image.

Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: “Whom shall I send, And who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.” And He said, “Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ “Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and return and be healed.”
(Isaiah 6:8-10)

 

[Saint Steven]

Speaking of questions, why do I even bother asking you whether hell ends at the moment of Christ's second advent? You don't even think hell exists in the first place do you?

That's a great question, actually. Thanks. I guess it depends on the definition of hell.

These discussions become difficult when we have to use terminology that others understand, even though we don't subscribe to the words being used. If that makes sense.

What language do we use to effectively communicate when, as you noted, I don't even believe in hell, or at least not as defined by those who do believe in it? Thanks for hanging in there and making an attempt to communicate, even though we are not all on the same page. I give you a lot credit for that.

As I understand it, the second advent (second coming) will initiate the age of restoration. One could call that hell, I suppose. It will be an age of a judgment of works and the restorative work needed to prepare everyone for entrance into heaven. IMHO

 

[Der Alte]

Of course it did. Replacement theology is a lie.

So? I never said anything about replacement theology.

 

[WintersDust]

So? I never said anything about replacement theology.

You sure did when stating Judaism has nothing to do with Christianity.

Jesus was a Jew. Not a Christian.
Surprise!

 

[Saint Steven]

Hmm said: ↑
You're not I'm afraid. I was hoping for, but not expecting, a straight answer to a straight question. And I was not disappointed.

Were you this smug and disrespectful in your math classes at the university?

Seems like he is right. Where's the beef?

 

[Der Alte]

You sure did when stating Judaism has nothing to do with Christianity.
Jesus was a Jew. Not a Christian.
Surprise!

Wrong! That is NOT what I said.

 

[didactics]

That's a great question, actually. Thanks. I guess it depends on the definition of hell.

These discussions become difficult when we have to use terminology that others understand, even though we don't subscribe to the words being used. If that makes sense.

What language do we use to effectively communicate when, as you noted, I don't even believe in hell, or at least not as defined by those who do believe in it? Thanks for hanging in there and making an attempt to communicate, even though we are not all on the same page. I give you a lot credit for that.

As I understand it, the second advent (second coming) will initiate the age of restoration. One could call that hell, I suppose. It will be an age of a judgment of works and the restorative work needed to prepare everyone for entrance into heaven. IMHO

What about the intermediate realm, the time before then? In other words, do you believe in an intermediate heaven and hell?

Phil 2:10

2:10 at the name of Jesus. This may mean “the name belonging to Jesus,” i.e., “Lord” (v. 11). Paul more likely means that the utterance of the name “Jesus” is the signal that “every knee should bow” to offer Him worship and acclaim Him Lord.
ESV Reformation Study Bible


From what I get, every knee will bow at Christ’s second coming. I’m not entirely sure, but that’s what I’ve read from a Got Questions article. Something else I wasn’t aware of, under the earth could be referring to demonic beings, while those on earth refers to humanity. That’s just one interpretation. Though, not all humanity will be on earth if others have passed on.

 

[Saint Steven]

What about the intermediate realm, the time before then? In other words, do you believe in an intermediate heaven and hell?

Yes. There are 29 entries for the "realm of the dead" in the NIV translation. Two of them occur in the second chapter of Acts. And one in the ninth chapter of Ecclesiastes. (the "dead know nothing" chapter)

In the new testament we seem to be informed that believers go directly to "heaven". (to be present with the Lord -- wherever that is) But that could be the intermediate heaven that Jesus talks about in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus. The bosom of Abraham. (Luke 16:22)