Losing Our Salvation

[Light of the East]

I am listening to a free audio podcast by Fr. Josiah Trenham called "Demonology - Understanding and Winning the Spiritual Battle."

I am really having a hard time with some of the things that he is saying. For instance: "If we are going to be saved, if we are going to succeed as disciples of Jesus, we need to take spiritual battle with the demons seriously."

If we are going to be saved? So salvation is not a once and done deal in which, according to the Paschal hymnody, "by death He trampled death" and the Paschal readings, that Christ "tore down the gates of Hades and emptied it." Those words sound like a done and finished deal, a victory won by the Great Warrior to free His beloved people. Yet I hear this (and many other statements from Orthodox monks and clergy) that indicate that in the end, Satan and his demons can win back what they have lost to Christ at the Cross??

That doesn't sound like victory to me and is certainly not of any comfort to me who am constantly sinning and failing God in so many ways.

It seems that there is one teaching of the Bible, another teaching of the Church, and yet another teaching of the holy monks of Athos.

BIBLE: 1 Timothy 2: 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Corinthians 15: 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romans 5: 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

CHURCH: "Christ is risen from the dead, by death He trampled death, and to those in the tombs, He granted life." (Paschal Troparion)

" As God, You arose from the tomb in glory, Raising the world with Yourself. Human nature praises You as God, for death has vanished. Adam exults, O Master! Eve rejoices, for she is freed from bondage, and cries to You: You are the Giver of Resurrection to all, O Christ!" (Kontakia of the Resurrection - Tone 1)

"When Christ God, the Giver of Life, raised all of the dead from the valleys of misery with His mighty hand, He bestowed resurrection on the human race. He is the Savior of all, the Resurrection, the Life, and the God of all. (Kontakia of the Resurrction - Tone 6)

"The dominion of death can no longer hold men captive, For Christ descended, shattering and destroying its powers. Sheol is bound, while the prophets rejoice and cry: The Savior has come to those in faith. Enter, you faithful, into the resurrection! (Kontakia of the Resurrection - Tone 7)


MONKS: Perhaps the most famous of the contradictory icons known in Orthodox is the LADDER OF DIVINE ASCENT in which we see the strugglers ascending the ladder, only to be pulled off by the demons and into their eternal ruin. It is said that they lose their salvation by falling for the temptations of the evil one. This is also said of lay people who fall into sin, thus giving up their salvation for the pleasure of the world.

Here is a description of the LADDER:

The icon shows several examples of monks that gave into temptation of sin as the demons with dark chains hoist their victims off the ladder and into hell. These battles are represented visually between the monks and their sin. Lord Nikon shows leadership through perseverance as he reaches the top rung. His inspirational position close to Christ serves as a guide to those still struggling in their journey.[3] Between the danger of climbing the ladder is a group of brothers gathered at the lower right, arms raised in prayer to the angels above in the upper left. This represents the thoughts and prayers that cut through the battlefield giving support to those on the path to heaven by way of virtue. A life based on prayer and penance as the way to salvation is the virtue they live by.

I suppose the reason I am wrestling with this has a lot to do with my constant failures in the Christian life. How do I have hope that death is conquered for me if I still struggle with sin and my being appears so unchanged to me? And if the requirements for salvation are so strict, then how is anyone, other than a few monks on Mt. Athos, really saved? For instance, this morning, in the middle of the many things I have to do to take care of my wife, I simply forgot that it is Wednesday, and I had a nice plate of eggs over fried potatoes. That shows that I am spiritually lazy and inattentive to important spiritual things. The same is true with so much more in my life, such as distracted prayers, failure to gain any ground in mastering the Jesus Prayer, etc.

Quite frankly, every time I listen to or read something from the saints or monks, I am tempted to despair. From what they say, the requirements for salvation are so high and so strict one wonders if anyone will be saved. Anyway, to close this out, I'm just confused because the Fathers and the saints, whom I think are important to listen to, seem to say one thing, and the hymnody of the Church and the Scriptures seem to say something else and the contradiction has me a little nuts.

 

[HTacianas]

I am listening to a free audio podcast by Fr. Josiah Trenham called "Demonology - Understanding and Winning the Spiritual Battle."

I am really having a hard time with some of the things that he is saying. For instance: "If we are going to be saved, if we are going to succeed as disciples of Jesus, we need to take spiritual battle with the demons seriously."

If we are going to be saved? So salvation is not a once and done deal in which, according to the Paschal hymnody, "by death He trampled death" and the Paschal readings, that Christ "tore down the gates of Hades and emptied it." Those words sound like a done and finished deal, a victory won by the Great Warrior to free His beloved people. Yet I hear this (and many other statements from Orthodox monks and clergy) that indicate that in the end, Satan and his demons can win back what they have lost to Christ at the Cross??

That doesn't sound like victory to me and is certainly not of any comfort to me who am constantly sinning and failing God in so many ways.

It seems that there is one teaching of the Bible, another teaching of the Church, and yet another teaching of the holy monks of Athos.

BIBLE: 1 Timothy 2: 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Corinthians 15: 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romans 5: 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

CHURCH: "Christ is risen from the dead, by death He trampled death, and to those in the tombs, He granted life." (Paschal Troparion)

" As God, You arose from the tomb in glory, Raising the world with Yourself. Human nature praises You as God, for death has vanished. Adam exults, O Master! Eve rejoices, for she is freed from bondage, and cries to You: You are the Giver of Resurrection to all, O Christ!" (Kontakia of the Resurrection - Tone 1)

"When Christ God, the Giver of Life, raised all of the dead from the valleys of misery with His mighty hand, He bestowed resurrection on the human race. He is the Savior of all, the Resurrection, the Life, and the God of all. (Kontakia of the Resurrction - Tone 6)

"The dominion of death can no longer hold men captive, For Christ descended, shattering and destroying its powers. Sheol is bound, while the prophets rejoice and cry: The Savior has come to those in faith. Enter, you faithful, into the resurrection! (Kontakia of the Resurrection - Tone 7)


MONKS: Perhaps the most famous of the contradictory icons known in Orthodox is the LADDER OF DIVINE ASCENT in which we see the strugglers ascending the ladder, only to be pulled off by the demons and into their eternal ruin. It is said that they lose their salvation by falling for the temptations of the evil one. This is also said of lay people who fall into sin, thus giving up their salvation for the pleasure of the world.

Here is a description of the LADDER:



I suppose the reason I am wrestling with this has a lot to do with my constant failures in the Christian life. How do I have hope that death is conquered for me if I still struggle with sin and my being appears so unchanged to me? And if the requirements for salvation are so strict, then how is anyone, other than a few monks on Mt. Athos, really saved? For instance, this morning, in the middle of the many things I have to do to take care of my wife, I simply forgot that it is Wednesday, and I had a nice plate of eggs over fried potatoes. That shows that I am spiritually lazy and inattentive to important spiritual things. The same is true with so much more in my life, such as distracted prayers, failure to gain any ground in mastering the Jesus Prayer, etc.

Quite frankly, every time I listen to or read something from the saints or monks, I am tempted to despair. From what they say, the requirements for salvation are so high and so strict one wonders if anyone will be saved. Anyway, to close this out, I'm just confused because the Fathers and the saints, whom I think are important to listen to, seem to say one thing, and the hymnody of the Church and the Scriptures seem to say something else and the contradiction has me a little nuts.

You mention the icon of the Ladder of Divine ascent. That's my avatar. And I chose it for a reason. All of the things you've had to say are true, and consistent, believe it or not. All of the positives of the Saints, and the Church, and the New Testament are true for those who endure. As Jesus said, "He who endures to the end shall be saved", Matt 10:22, Matt 24:13, Mark 13:13. All of the warnings and penalties are for those who do not endure. We enter into salvation by faith and the grace of God. But it is our conduct and endurance that leads us to our final salvation on the day of judgement.

In the very early Church, even a single mortal sin was reason for excommunication, see Hebrews 10:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

The big three were murder, idolatry, and adultery. Even the Shepherd of Hermas says "there is but one repentance for the Christian". It was only around 200 AD or so that the Church accepted the Tradition of repentance and absolution of mortal sin. And that Tradition is a valid teaching of the Church. So now it is a two-edged sword. Salvation for those who endure, even after mortal sin, no salvation for those who do not endure or who do not repent and seek forgiveness for mortal sin..

I mention the Ladder of Divine Ascent because when I look to that icon I wonder just where in I am. Am I a monk climbing the Ladder, am I Saint John Climacus encouraging the monks to climb, am I a monk who has fallen, or am I a demon dragging them down. It can get confusing. And I always remember the words of Philippians 2:12 "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

I am listening to a free audio podcast by Fr. Josiah Trenham called "Demonology - Understanding and Winning the Spiritual Battle."

I am really having a hard time with some of the things that he is saying. For instance: "If we are going to be saved, if we are going to succeed as disciples of Jesus, we need to take spiritual battle with the demons seriously."

If we are going to be saved? So salvation is not a once and done deal in which, according to the Paschal hymnody, "by death He trampled death" and the Paschal readings, that Christ "tore down the gates of Hades and emptied it." Those words sound like a done and finished deal, a victory won by the Great Warrior to free His beloved people. Yet I hear this (and many other statements from Orthodox monks and clergy) that indicate that in the end, Satan and his demons can win back what they have lost to Christ at the Cross??

That doesn't sound like victory to me and is certainly not of any comfort to me who am constantly sinning and failing God in so many ways.

It seems that there is one teaching of the Bible, another teaching of the Church, and yet another teaching of the holy monks of Athos.

BIBLE: 1 Timothy 2: 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Corinthians 15: 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romans 5: 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

CHURCH: "Christ is risen from the dead, by death He trampled death, and to those in the tombs, He granted life." (Paschal Troparion)

" As God, You arose from the tomb in glory, Raising the world with Yourself. Human nature praises You as God, for death has vanished. Adam exults, O Master! Eve rejoices, for she is freed from bondage, and cries to You: You are the Giver of Resurrection to all, O Christ!" (Kontakia of the Resurrection - Tone 1)

"When Christ God, the Giver of Life, raised all of the dead from the valleys of misery with His mighty hand, He bestowed resurrection on the human race. He is the Savior of all, the Resurrection, the Life, and the God of all. (Kontakia of the Resurrction - Tone 6)

"The dominion of death can no longer hold men captive, For Christ descended, shattering and destroying its powers. Sheol is bound, while the prophets rejoice and cry: The Savior has come to those in faith. Enter, you faithful, into the resurrection! (Kontakia of the Resurrection - Tone 7)


MONKS: Perhaps the most famous of the contradictory icons known in Orthodox is the LADDER OF DIVINE ASCENT in which we see the strugglers ascending the ladder, only to be pulled off by the demons and into their eternal ruin. It is said that they lose their salvation by falling for the temptations of the evil one. This is also said of lay people who fall into sin, thus giving up their salvation for the pleasure of the world.

Here is a description of the LADDER:



I suppose the reason I am wrestling with this has a lot to do with my constant failures in the Christian life. How do I have hope that death is conquered for me if I still struggle with sin and my being appears so unchanged to me? And if the requirements for salvation are so strict, then how is anyone, other than a few monks on Mt. Athos, really saved? For instance, this morning, in the middle of the many things I have to do to take care of my wife, I simply forgot that it is Wednesday, and I had a nice plate of eggs over fried potatoes. That shows that I am spiritually lazy and inattentive to important spiritual things. The same is true with so much more in my life, such as distracted prayers, failure to gain any ground in mastering the Jesus Prayer, etc.

Quite frankly, every time I listen to or read something from the saints or monks, I am tempted to despair. From what they say, the requirements for salvation are so high and so strict one wonders if anyone will be saved. Anyway, to close this out, I'm just confused because the Fathers and the saints, whom I think are important to listen to, seem to say one thing, and the hymnody of the Church and the Scriptures seem to say something else and the contradiction has me a little nuts.

I would ignore the monks, and believe what is in the Bible. A good church strictly teaches what is in the Bible. If you see a church that bases its sermons on other things than the scriptures and God, then I would leave that church. Why the Bible? Because it's the living Word of God. And in it, God reveals to us who He is and what His will for us is.

In regards to how hard it is to reach salvation, let's see what God says: Mark 17
17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” 20 And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.” 21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

23 And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!” 24 And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again, “Children, how difficult it is[b] to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” 26 And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him,[c] “Then who can be saved?” 27 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.”

It is impossible to save ourselves. Jesus is the way to Heaven. We are all sinners, we are under God's wrath. God is good, that also means He must justly punish every sin. But God in His mercy sent His Son who bore our sins, and took God's wrath. God crushed Jesus on the cross, His just was satisfied and whoever believes in Jesus and His work on cross will be saved, but all those who reject Him, their sins and wrath of God remains. God cannot just forgive freely. Sin must be punished, so in order for God remain righteous in our forgiveness, He provided the perfect substitute for our sins. Jesus bore the penalty for our sins, and paid for them full, so those who truly are Christians, no longer are in debt to God. God does no longer look at them like sinners, but He looks at them like He looks on is righteous Son.

Does that mean Jesus paid for everyone's sin? No, only those who believe, both before and after Jesus. Because God knows who are His. If you are not saved, go to God and ask for HIs mercy. I cannot guarantee He will save you, but He is the only one He can.

Can salvation be lost? Absolutely not. God does not judge anyone twice. If Christ paid for your sins, He paid for them full, all of them. His sacrifice on the cross was perfect, there is no more condemnation if you were forgiven by God. If you are a Christian, that means Christ was judged in your place and because Christ was the only one righteous, the penalty of sin is not valid and thus death could not hold Him.

What about those who try to get to Heaven by their deeds? They reject Christ and HIs sacrifice, and God will judge them by their deeds and since 'for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (Romans 3:23) and as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one...everyone who tries to go to Heaven by their own deeds and righteousness will fail and suffer eternal wrath of God in hell, because they rejected Jesus and His sacrifice.

You ask how does one know who is saved. Matthew 7:21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.' If you are truly saved, you will do the will of God and obey His commandments. Yes, you won't be perfect at it, but if you desire Jesus in your heart and the Holy Spirit produces the fruit in you, know that you are saved. Because no one can produce the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

 

[HTacianas]

I would ignore the monks, and believe what is in the Bible. A good church strictly teaches what is in the Bible. If you see a church that bases its sermons on other things than the scriptures and God, then I would leave that church. Why the Bible? Because it's the living Word of God. And in it, God reveals to us who He is and what His will for us is.

In regards to how hard it is to reach salvation, let's see what God says: Mark 17
17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” 20 And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.” 21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

23 And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!” 24 And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again, “Children, how difficult it is[b] to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” 26 And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him,[c] “Then who can be saved?” 27 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.”

It is impossible to save ourselves. Jesus is the way to Heaven. We are all sinners, we are under God's wrath. God is good, that also means He must justly punish every sin. But God in His mercy sent His Son who bore our sins, and took God's wrath. God crushed Jesus on the cross, His just was satisfied and whoever believes in Jesus and His work on cross will be saved, but all those who reject Him, their sins and wrath of God remains. God cannot just forgive freely. Sin must be punished, so in order for God remain righteous in our forgiveness, He provided the perfect substitute for our sins. Jesus bore the penalty for our sins, and paid for them full, so those who truly are Christians, no longer are in debt to God. God does no longer look at them like sinners, but He looks at them like He looks on is righteous Son.

Does that mean Jesus paid for everyone's sin? No, only those who believe, both before and after Jesus. Because God knows who are His. If you are not saved, go to God and ask for HIs mercy. I cannot guarantee He will save you, but He is the only one He can.

Can salvation be lost? Absolutely not. God does not judge anyone twice. If Christ paid for your sins, He paid for them full, all of them. His sacrifice on the cross was perfect, there is no more condemnation if you were forgiven by God. If you are a Christian, that means Christ was judged in your place and because Christ was the only one righteous, the penalty of sin is not valid and thus death could not hold Him.

What about those who try to get to Heaven by their deeds? They reject Christ and HIs sacrifice, and God will judge them by their deeds and since 'for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (Romans 3:23) and as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one...everyone who tries to go to Heaven by their own deeds and righteousness will fail and suffer eternal wrath of God in hell, because they rejected Jesus and His sacrifice.

You ask how does one know who is saved. Matthew 7:21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.' If you are truly saved, you will do the will of God and obey His commandments. Yes, you won't be perfect at it, but if you desire Jesus in your heart and the Holy Spirit produces the fruit in you, know that you are saved. Because no one can produce the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

You say that we should ignore the monks but listen to you. Which way should I go here?

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

You say that we should ignore the monks but listen to you. Which way should I go here?

Do not listen to me, listen to the Bible. Who can teach about God better than God? Who else can tell the way to Heaven.
Bible is the Word of God. What God says in the Bible is truth. Do you believe the Bible to be the Word of God?

 

[HTacianas]

Do not listen to me, listen to the Bible. Who can teach about God better than God? Who else can tell the way to Heaven.
Bible is the Word of God. What God says in the Bible is truth. Do you believe the Bible to be the Word of God?

I've read the bible. And what you are telling me contradicts it.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Do not listen to me, listen to the Bible. Who can teach about God better than God? Who else can tell the way to Heaven.
Bible is the Word of God. What God says in the Bible is truth. Do you believe the Bible to be the Word of God?

you are also in St Basil’s in the Orthodox subforum. this isn’t the place to give your opinion or understanding.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I am listening to a free audio podcast by Fr. Josiah Trenham called "Demonology - Understanding and Winning the Spiritual Battle."

I am really having a hard time with some of the things that he is saying. For instance: "If we are going to be saved, if we are going to succeed as disciples of Jesus, we need to take spiritual battle with the demons seriously."

If we are going to be saved? So salvation is not a once and done deal in which, according to the Paschal hymnody, "by death He trampled death" and the Paschal readings, that Christ "tore down the gates of Hades and emptied it." Those words sound like a done and finished deal, a victory won by the Great Warrior to free His beloved people. Yet I hear this (and many other statements from Orthodox monks and clergy) that indicate that in the end, Satan and his demons can win back what they have lost to Christ at the Cross??

That doesn't sound like victory to me and is certainly not of any comfort to me who am constantly sinning and failing God in so many ways.

It seems that there is one teaching of the Bible, another teaching of the Church, and yet another teaching of the holy monks of Athos.

BIBLE: 1 Timothy 2: 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 Corinthians 15: 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romans 5: 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

CHURCH: "Christ is risen from the dead, by death He trampled death, and to those in the tombs, He granted life." (Paschal Troparion)

" As God, You arose from the tomb in glory, Raising the world with Yourself. Human nature praises You as God, for death has vanished. Adam exults, O Master! Eve rejoices, for she is freed from bondage, and cries to You: You are the Giver of Resurrection to all, O Christ!" (Kontakia of the Resurrection - Tone 1)

"When Christ God, the Giver of Life, raised all of the dead from the valleys of misery with His mighty hand, He bestowed resurrection on the human race. He is the Savior of all, the Resurrection, the Life, and the God of all. (Kontakia of the Resurrction - Tone 6)

"The dominion of death can no longer hold men captive, For Christ descended, shattering and destroying its powers. Sheol is bound, while the prophets rejoice and cry: The Savior has come to those in faith. Enter, you faithful, into the resurrection! (Kontakia of the Resurrection - Tone 7)


MONKS: Perhaps the most famous of the contradictory icons known in Orthodox is the LADDER OF DIVINE ASCENT in which we see the strugglers ascending the ladder, only to be pulled off by the demons and into their eternal ruin. It is said that they lose their salvation by falling for the temptations of the evil one. This is also said of lay people who fall into sin, thus giving up their salvation for the pleasure of the world.

Here is a description of the LADDER:



I suppose the reason I am wrestling with this has a lot to do with my constant failures in the Christian life. How do I have hope that death is conquered for me if I still struggle with sin and my being appears so unchanged to me? And if the requirements for salvation are so strict, then how is anyone, other than a few monks on Mt. Athos, really saved? For instance, this morning, in the middle of the many things I have to do to take care of my wife, I simply forgot that it is Wednesday, and I had a nice plate of eggs over fried potatoes. That shows that I am spiritually lazy and inattentive to important spiritual things. The same is true with so much more in my life, such as distracted prayers, failure to gain any ground in mastering the Jesus Prayer, etc.

Quite frankly, every time I listen to or read something from the saints or monks, I am tempted to despair. From what they say, the requirements for salvation are so high and so strict one wonders if anyone will be saved. Anyway, to close this out, I'm just confused because the Fathers and the saints, whom I think are important to listen to, seem to say one thing, and the hymnody of the Church and the Scriptures seem to say something else and the contradiction has me a little nuts.

what about the hymns of Clean Week, Holy Week, the Sunday of the Last Judgment?

what about the writings of St Porphyrios?

you seem to be very selective your references, rather than taking the tradition as a whole.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

you are also in St Basil’s in the Orthodox subforum. this isn’t the place to give your opinion or understanding.

My apologies. I did not look where I was posting. Sometimes I just see a post and do not look what subforum it is. I mean no harm. God bless

 

[ArmyMatt]

My apologies. I did not look where I was posting. Sometimes I just see a post and do not look what subforum it is. I mean no harm. God bless

you didn’t, it happens from time to time

 

[Light of the East]

what about the hymns of Clean Week, Holy Week, the Sunday of the Last Judgment?

what about the writings of St Porphyrios?

you seem to be very selective your references, rather than taking the tradition as a whole.

Father, I feel that you miss the whole point of my OP. The things I quoted are part and parcel of the whole Church. And they are in conflict with the Sunday of Judgment, Clean Week, Holy Week, etc. If you take the Tradition as a whole, then you have a conflict of ideas. My whole point is this: how do I reconcile these things?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Father, I feel that you miss the whole point of my OP. The things I quoted are part and parcel of the whole Church. And they are in conflict with the Sunday of Judgment, Clean Week, Holy Week, etc. If you take the Tradition as a whole, then you have a conflict of ideas. My whole point is this: how do I reconcile these things?

and the other stuff is part and parcel with the whole Church. you don’t have a conflict of ideas. yes, Christ raised me from the dead and my death isn’t the end of me. but what if I hate that notion? the demons don’t win anything back, but I can follow them in their defeat.

 

[rturner76]

From my understanding, demons can't hurt Baptized Christians unless there is a case of demonic possession that has been verified by an expert of The Church and verified by the local Bishop. I do believe that people can suffer from "personal demons" like addiction, mental illness, behavior disorders, etc. I believe that in those cases it is not a demon or demons that may have a name(s) and can be exercised but more a matter of demonic desires. Not an expert on the topic but that's my understanding of it.

 

[prodromos]

I did not say that's what he wanted.

You are missing the point of my response.
This thread was posted in St Basil the Great's Hall, the subtitle of which is "Ask questions of Eastern Orthodox" and it is found the the Eastern Orthodox Community subforum.

Since you are not Eastern Orthodox, your input is not requested. You may ask questions, buy you may not post anything contrary to the Orthodox faith.

If you wish to challenge any of our beliefs, you may do so in St Justin Martyrs corner where we welcome debate. In fact we are unique on Christian Forums in this regard.

 

[tonychanyt]

You are missing the point of my response.

What is my point?

 

[Light of the East]

and the other stuff is part and parcel with the whole Church. you don’t have a conflict of ideas. yes, Christ raised me from the dead and my death isn’t the end of me. but what if I hate that notion? the demons don’t win anything back, but I can follow them in their defeat.

So in other words, the "free-will" defense. How is that not defeating the Cross, especially when there is so much working against my own soul: the lies of demons, my inner passions, the history of my life (for instance, never even hearing of Christ or the Gospel), false teachers, the lure of sin. All of these things are powerful inducements to sin, to ignoring Christ, to turning from Him to sin. We poor sinners are at a great disadvantage in this life because of all these things.

So what you are saying is that Christ has saved all, but all will not take advantage of it. They will choose to follow the devil into the permanent state of death, separation from God, aka "death." That appears to me that both death and Hades have, in some manner, won a victory. And for that reason, I find that the hymns we so joyfully sing at Pascha, which indicate that Christ has won the victory, trampled death, broken down the gates of Hades, cannot be completely true because death and Hades wind up holding, according to some of the saints, a majority of the human race forever, and that to me is winning, not being trampled, and not being defeated.

**This conversation is getting perilously close to a subject I do not wish to discuss - Apocatastasis. My intent was, and still is, trying to discuss my confusion over what appears to be a contradiction in the hymns and understanding of the Church.

 

[Light of the East]

You are missing the point of my response.
This thread was posted in St Basil the Great's Hall, the subtitle of which is "Ask questions of Eastern Orthodox" and it is found the the Eastern Orthodox Community subforum.

Since you are not Eastern Orthodox, your input is not requested. You may ask questions, buy you may not post anything contrary to the Orthodox faith.

If you wish to challenge any of our beliefs, you may do so in St Justin Martyrs corner where we welcome debate. In fact we are unique on Christian Forums in this regard.

And I hope that my Orthodox brothers and sisters who may be following this thread understand that I am not trying to post contrary to the Orthodox faith nor challenge it. There are things that are perplexing to me (such as, for instance, the Toll-houses) and I am striving to get a handle on them and be obedient to the Church. Therein is my safety.

 

[Lukaris]

St. Paul says we have to keep committed to our faith ( 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, Colossians 1:23 etc.).

 

[Light of the East]

What I said in an earlier post: Ask in full sentences so that we understand what you are saying. In other words, please enter into a discussion.

BTW - it's not just you. I get annoyed with anyone who either gives one word responses when a clearer discussion is needed, or throws out scriptures with no explanation of what they think the scriptures mean. Scripture bombardment is not an argument.

 

[ArmyMatt]

reference?

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