Losing my religion, where is the evidence for God

[Ken Rank]

This another of my problems, so often the case for CHristianity comes down to misrepresenting the Alternative positions. Science does not claim to know how life started. It does not claim to know what happened at the Big Bang. All it offers is the best possible theories from looking at the observable universe. Evolution does not claim to explain to know how the first living organism occurred. It does look at the fossil record and DNA and observe that there appears to be trends leading to where we are now. When new evidence is found and it keeps fitting then this seems to confirm the theory. So it observes that the universe is expanding and predicts other things that would be found if this is a long term trend. Then it tests to see if those things are supported by further evidence. Where they are then a hypothesis becomes a theory.

That’s a sensible approach. We take what we know to be observed and then accept that we may not yet have all of the evidence but from what we do have this appears to be the most likely turn of events.

Science is not silent on the literal truth of Genesis, and neither should it be. But I can accept Genesis as allegory and still see that the general message of christianity is good. I believe that is probably the route most non fundamentalist Christians take.

However on the existence of God science is silent, because there is no evidence. You cannot evidence what occurs outside of the observable universe. People come up with nothing comes from nothing all of the time. Firstly it ignores that as Christians you claim God did precisely that and secondly it is currently impossible for you to know what laws apply outside of what we can observe. If you do not have any evidence of what lies out with this universe then literally anything is possible. This makes any solution to how the universe and human life came into existence possible and as a result any claimed vision of how it happened infinitesimally probable. With this being the case I cannot see how I could continue to base my life on something that it is almost impossible is true.

I realize there are holes, that was kind of my point. It is full of holes and yet we are to accept those holes, and the outcome of cosmic accidents, rather than accept that there might actually be a Creator who did all this for a purpose most don't care to explore.

In any event, I didn't post to create strife or argue, you have to find your own way. My path is one that doesn't trust religion, but does trust their God. Whatever your path is, is yours alone.

 

[Ross Woodward]

I recommend that you research what some of the great scientists have had to say. Many here would not consider some of them Christians, but many/most were at least Deists, believing in a Supreme Being that created and sustains the Universe. I recall a book that I read decades ago while I was in college. It was written by a philosopher, but I do not recall his name. He laid out all of the pros and cons for the existence of God. His final summation was that he felt that the odds for God's existence were slightly higher than the odds against His existence and not because God was necessary to create the Universe, but because the Universe has been sustained for billions of years and this would seem to indicate a Supreme Intelligence behind it all.

That's irrelevant. Science is not the opposite of religion. Science observes what is observable, religion claims to know what is not observable. Unless they present evidence of a God then it is still no use to me. their opinions on God are no more relevant just because they are scientists. Obviously their opinion on evolution or the Big Bang would be interesting.

 

[grasping the after wind]

I have been brought up Church of England here in the UK. Went to Sunday School, CofE primary and Middle. Involved with church based SCout Groups as a Leader. I have been attending church about once a month at my local village church. However I now find myself in a tricky position as I realise I am actually an agnostic atheist.

I have been searching for evidence of Gods existence and can’t find any. Each time I try to find the truth I am merely presented with faith as proof by Christians and the use of presuppositional apologetics, which frankly I find utterly dishonest.

Is there somewhere where I can discuss evidence for God and for the Christian faith with people who may have a similarly rational and evidence based mindset?

Perhaps if you told us what sort of evidence would be convincing then we would not have to fill up this thread with evidence that you already dismiss.
As an example , I an unconvinced that parallel lines can ever cross. In order to convince me that they could, one would have to measure the distance between the two lines at the point they cross and prove that that distance was equal to the distance between the two lines at all the points at which they do not cross. Nothing else would be convincing . Even if Einstein were to personally argue the case using everything at his disposal on the matter, without that one thing I would never be convinced.

 

[FIRESTORM314]

Well - study Science for years, reason for years, debate for years.

God is only a prayer of Faith away - how long is that?

We do not know! That’s the point. Christianity claims to know the unknowable. The only way we can know is to examine the evidence and test the theory. But nobody has been able to present me with any evidence of God.

You get the evidence when you follow the instructions or did you get the watered down version of the Gospel that you only had to attend church and the CofE membership had an easy entrance pass to the Kingdom of God.

I'm curious if you really want to know God - I would be if I had done years in a church without any sort of encounter that confirmed what I hoped in was real.

Do you really desire to know the Truth after all those years in church?

 

[Ross Woodward]

I realize there are holes, that was kind of my point. It is full of holes and yet we are to accept those holes, and the outcome of cosmic accidents, rather than accept that there might actually be a Creator who did all this for a purpose most don't care to explore.

In any event, I didn't post to create strife or argue, you have to find your own way. My path is one that doesn't trust religion, but does trust their God. Whatever your path is, is yours alone.

I think thats where the problem lies for me. Religion doesn’t say there “might” be a creator, it says there is. I am absolutely not in the camp of saying God definitely does not exist, just that it is so improbable that I can’t base my life on him existing and on picking the right set of rules from the right book to follow.

I came here to have my views challenged so thank you for your time in contributing.

 

[Dansiph]

We do not know! That’s the point. Christianity claims to know the unknowable. The only way we can know is to examine the evidence and test the theory. But nobody has been able to present me with any evidence of God.

I'm only saying this to be helpful (I hope). But there are many extremely intelligent and analytical Christians. I'm not saying you've claimed this but do you think you could be giving yourself too much credit in having the position of "if there's no proof then I won't believe". It's almost like you've categorised people into only a few categories whereas there's probably a lot more.

Also religion doesn't really claim anything we just believe that God has revealed many things, The Bible for example.

I don't usually go into this stuff for many reasons but I think if the Bible wasn't divine it would have been completely discredited and even possibly destroyed by non-believers? Just a theory... If theory is the right word.

I'm curious, why do you want your view challenged? I think it's good you do I just want to know the reason

 

[Ross Woodward]

Perhaps if you told us what sort of evidence would be convincing then we would not have to fill up this thread with evidence that you already dismiss.
As an example , I an unconvinced that parallel lines can ever cross. In order to convince me that they could, one would have to measure the distance between the two lines at the point they cross and prove that that distance was equal to the distance between the two lines at all the points at which they do not cross. Nothing else would be convincing . Even if Einstein were to personally argue the case using everything at his disposal on the matter, without that one thing I would never be convinced.

Parallel lines is math, math is absolute, so that is far easier.

The issue here is that to say what the evidence would be is to assume I can even begin to comprehend what every other possibility could be. I do not think I can. So instead I look for the evidence that has convinced others and see if it convinces me. As I say, claims of prophecy, personal experience, claims of miracle, old books and traditions have all fallen short for me as none have been able to show that the only possible reason would be God. I thought, naively it would seem, that other people who are believers may have evidence I have not heard. It seems more and more likely that most Christians believe despite a complete lack of evidence that their claim is true.

 

[Hieronymus]

Sorry but that is nonsense. The existence of something complex is no proof of design.

Actually it is, but it depends on how complex it is.
Now living nature happens to be the most complex phenomenon known to man.
When you're not brainwashed, life screams design and purpose.

Design is not about complexity but about intent. The simplest things can be designed too.

Yes, but the most complex thing can not emerge by accident (unintended).

 

[Ken Rank]

I think thats where the problem lies for me. Religion doesn’t say there “might” be a creator, it says there is. I am absolutely not in the camp of saying God definitely does not exist, just that it is so improbable that I can’t base my life on him existing and on picking the right set of rules from the right book to follow.

I came here to have my views challenged so thank you for your time in contributing.

That is the problem... religion is dogmatic and forceful, God is not.

 

[Ross Woodward]

I'm only saying this to be helpful (I hope). But there are many extremely intelligent and analytical Christians. I'm not saying you've claimed this but do you think you could be giving yourself too much credit in having the position of "if there's no proof then I won't believe". It's almost like you've categorised people into only a few categories whereas there's probably a lot more.

Also religion doesn't really claim anything we just believe that God has revealed many things, The Bible for example.

I don't usually go into this stuff for many reasons but I think if the Bible wasn't divine it would have been completely discredited and even possibly destroyed by non-believers? Just a theory... If theory is the right word.

I'm curious, why do you want your view challenged? I think it's good you do I just want to know the reason

I think that’s a hypothesis. But I am fairly new to all this too. The issue there is that if we test this hypothesis it does not appear to hold up. Who has discredited the Vedas or the Tripitaka?

I’m not saying chritians are not intelligent or analytical, but those that are must surely have evidence on which to base their beliefs. If not then they are suspending their use of rational analysis for this question.

 

[Hieronymus]

We do not know!

Well, an agnostic would say that..

That’s the point. Christianity claims to know the unknowable.

Think along with me:
What if God does exist?
Would He be able to reveal things to us?
If He does, do we not know something?

The only way we can know is to examine the evidence and test the theory. But nobody has been able to present me with any evidence of God.

Maybe you expect naturalistic evidence for the supernatural?
The Bible is full of evidence though.
But you don't have reasons to believe that.
Seek truth if you want the truth.

 

[Ross Woodward]

Actually it is, but it depends on how complex it is.
Now living nature happens to be the most complex phenomenon known to man.
When you're not brainwashed, life screams design and purpose.Yes, but the most complex thing can not emerge by accident (unintended).

First off, not call me brainwashed. You are the one who is basing his life on what others tell him not me so please do not be so damned rude.

All you are doing is asserting things. Without proof of the designer this can only be you asserting and me denying, because you have no evidence for your claim that complex things can only happen through design. You actually appear to believe that everything is designed in which case I’m not sure how complexity comes into the discussion.

Design is only one explanation. Just like lightning bolts then until we have evidence of what occurs then apportioning it to God is ridiculous. I don’t see that we have any evidence of what caused it all. You want to leap to one reason because of a 4000 year old book.

 

[Ross Woodward]

Well, an agnostic would say that.. Think along with me:
What if God does exist?
Would He be able to reveal things to us?
If He does, do we not know something?
Maybe you expect naturalistic evidence for the supernatural?
The Bible is full of evidence though.
But you don't have reasons to believe that.
Seek truth if you want the truth.

I am an agnostic because I say this, not the other way around. Nonetheless you haven’t really presented anything to show me that we do know.

Your argument is just another “we have the bible” argument. There is nothing to indicate the bible is any more true than many other claims and certainly no actual evidence presented to me that it came from God, just the assertion that it did.

 

[Dansiph]

I am an agnostic because I say this, not the other way around. Nonetheless you haven’t really presented anything to show me that we do know.

Your argument is just another “we have the bible” argument. There is nothing to indicate the bible is any more true than many other claims and certainly no actual evidence presented to me that it came from God, just the assertion that it did.

What about the Bible being superior to the likes of the quran in every way? To me and I'm not being emotional it's not a good thing to say on a Christian website that The Bible has no indication of being true compared to other claims. If you think that all we can do mainly is pray your faith is strengthened

 

[Ross Woodward]

Subbing

What does that mean?

 

[Hieronymus]

I am an agnostic because I say this, not the other way around. Nonetheless you haven’t really presented anything to show me that we do know.

Your argument is just another “we have the bible” argument. There is nothing to indicate the bible is any more true than many other claims and certainly no actual evidence presented to me that it came from God, just the assertion that it did.

That wasn't my only post here.
Besides, do you really expect us to write half a book with apologetics here?

 

[Ross Woodward]

What about the Bible being superior to the likes of the quran in every way? To me and I'm not being emotional it's not a good thing to say on a Christian website that The Bible has no indication of being true compared to other claims. If you think that all we can do mainly is pray your faith is strengthened

My entire point for being here is to find the thing that makes the claim most likely to be the truth. I thought that coming to a place full of believers may be the way to do that. If all you can do is pray rather than actually provide evidence then that is really not instilling me with any confidence.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Ross Woodward]

Well - study Science for years, reason for years, debate for years.

God is only a prayer of Faith away - how long is that?


You get the evidence when you follow the instructions or did you get the watered down version of the Gospel that you only had to attend church and the CofE membership had an easy entrance pass to the Kingdom of God.

I'm curious if you really want to know God - I would be if I had done years in a church without any sort of encounter that confirmed what I hoped in was real.

Do you really desire to know the Truth after all those years in church?

If you have to believe without evidence then an honest man would have to believe all claims that anybody ever made about anything until they were disproven. Do you believe satanism to be true? Have you practiced it to discern that it is not? Or are you only applying this principle to your chosen belief?

 

[Hieronymus]

First off, not call me brainwashed.

I don't do the brainwashing, so you're barking up the wrong tree.
And don't be offended. I'm not blaming the brainwashed but the brainwashers.

You are the one who is basing his life on what others tell him not me so please do not be so damned rude.

Classic projection...
But, in all fairness, we all (think we) know things because others told or taught us.
But some question it, some don't.
Usually it's life that causes someone to question things.

All you are doing is asserting things.

Of course.
So why don't YOU assert things then?