Losing my religion, where is the evidence for God

Ross Woodward

Active Member
Nov 12, 2018
132
27
51
Warwick
✟9,196.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
I have been brought up Church of England here in the UK. Went to Sunday School, CofE primary and Middle. Involved with church based SCout Groups as a Leader. I have been attending church about once a month at my local village church. However I now find myself in a tricky position as I realise I am actually an agnostic atheist.

I have been searching for evidence of Gods existence and can’t find any. Each time I try to find the truth I am merely presented with faith as proof by Christians and the use of presuppositional apologetics, which frankly I find utterly dishonest.

Is there somewhere where I can discuss evidence for God and for the Christian faith with people who may have a similarly rational and evidence based mindset?
 

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,560
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Respectfully, I always wonder how a rationalist looks at evolution and accepts that there was nothing and then a large explosion and eventually we are walking around contemplating our own fate which has no evolutionary value and should have been bred out of us if it should have ever developed in us in the first place. The odds of an explosion leading to life that leads to us having this discussion? They don't exist unless there we were created and science more and more leans toward intelligent design. Oh, they'll never say "God" or accept the bible...but even there the evidence is growing.
 
Upvote 0

Dansiph

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 26, 2018
1,349
1,001
UK
✟119,794.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I've had the ocassional doubt creep into my head but I am careful to not backslide in my belief. I think the Christian life is a constant fight as is mentioned in scripture.

Addressing the problem, I'm going to be honest I can't help that much at the moment because I'm just not a quick analytical thinker sometimes...

Do you not look out of your eyes or listen from your ears, smell even and think that this was created? I just don't see it coming from "natural causes" or whatever the correct term is. Or thinking "God wasn't involved" or it wasn't created etc. I'm trying to approach it from a way of thinking which isn't mine also so it's difficult. I didn't always think like this. I have gradually changed since believing to the point where I hold hardly any of my previous viewpoints
 
Upvote 0

Ross Woodward

Active Member
Nov 12, 2018
132
27
51
Warwick
✟9,196.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
I do not accept that anything in the bible is true just because it is in the bible. For it to be true it needs to be the word of God and there is no evidence that this is the case. That's what I am struggling with.

Similarly claims of miracles seem to be overstated and are also nothing unique to the Abrahamic God. If others have claims of prophecy and miracle in their texts and they aren’t true then clearly these claims are not able to discern truth from untruth.

The creation Ministries stuff I loathe. It’s not about providing evidence for God, it’s about attacking science as science disproves the literal interpretation of Genesis. You could disprove all accepted scientific theories and still we’d be not one inch closer to providing evidence for God.

The biggest issue I face is that thus far the only arguments presented are not evidence. It appears to me that virtually every Christian I have discussed this with thus far has no evidence of truth, they just choose to believe anyway. I can’t allow myself to do that anymore, so I need actual evidence that shows that the claim that there is a God is true.
 
Upvote 0

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,459
8,968
Florida
✟321,876.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I have been brought up Church of England here in the UK. Went to Sunday School, CofE primary and Middle. Involved with church based SCout Groups as a Leader. I have been attending church about once a month at my local village church. However I now find myself in a tricky position as I realise I am actually an agnostic atheist.

I have been searching for evidence of Gods existence and can’t find any. Each time I try to find the truth I am merely presented with faith as proof by Christians and the use of presuppositional apologetics, which frankly I find utterly dishonest.

Is there somewhere where I can discuss evidence for God and for the Christian faith with people who may have a similarly rational and evidence based mindset?

I have a rational and evidence based mindset. I am by nature a skeptic. I don't believe in much of anything really. No bigfoot, no ghosts, no UFOs. But I believe in God.

If you asked me why, it would be a very long discussion completely devoid of what passes for apologetics. I don't buy those either.

But I'll leave you with a question I've asked myself a number of times. If I simply gave up my faith, how would my life change? Would it be for the good, for the bad, or would nothing change at all?

I don't know the answer to that question.
 
Upvote 0

Dansiph

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 26, 2018
1,349
1,001
UK
✟119,794.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I do not accept that anything in the bible is true just because it is in the bible. For it to be true it needs to be the word of God and there is no evidence that this is the case. That's what I am struggling with.

Similarly claims of miracles seem to be overstated and are also nothing unique to the Abrahamic God. If others have claims of prophecy and miracle in their texts and they aren’t true then clearly these claims are not able to discern truth from untruth.

The creation Ministries stuff I loathe. It’s not about providing evidence for God, it’s about attacking science as science disproves the literal interpretation of Genesis. You could disprove all accepted scientific theories and still we’d be not one inch closer to providing evidence for God.

The biggest issue I face is that thus far the only arguments presented are not evidence. It appears to me that virtually every Christian I have discussed this with thus far has no evidence of truth, they just choose to believe anyway. I can’t allow myself to do that anymore, so I need actual evidence that shows that the claim that there is a God is true.
How long have you felt this way?
 
Upvote 0

Ross Woodward

Active Member
Nov 12, 2018
132
27
51
Warwick
✟9,196.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Respectfully, I always wonder how a rationalist looks at evolution and accepts that there was nothing and then a large explosion and eventually we are walking around contemplating our own fate which has no evolutionary value and should have been bred out of us if it should have ever developed in us in the first place. The odds of an explosion leading to life that leads to us having this discussion? They don't exist unless there we were created and science more and more leans toward intelligent design. Oh, they'll never say "God" or accept the bible...but even there the evidence is growing.

This another of my problems, so often the case for CHristianity comes down to misrepresenting the Alternative positions. Science does not claim to know how life started. It does not claim to know what happened at the Big Bang. All it offers is the best possible theories from looking at the observable universe. Evolution does not claim to explain to know how the first living organism occurred. It does look at the fossil record and DNA and observe that there appears to be trends leading to where we are now. When new evidence is found and it keeps fitting then this seems to confirm the theory. So it observes that the universe is expanding and predicts other things that would be found if this is a long term trend. Then it tests to see if those things are supported by further evidence. Where they are then a hypothesis becomes a theory.

That’s a sensible approach. We take what we know to be observed and then accept that we may not yet have all of the evidence but from what we do have this appears to be the most likely turn of events.

Science is not silent on the literal truth of Genesis, and neither should it be. But I can accept Genesis as allegory and still see that the general message of christianity is good. I believe that is probably the route most non fundamentalist Christians take.

However on the existence of God science is silent, because there is no evidence. You cannot evidence what occurs outside of the observable universe. People come up with nothing comes from nothing all of the time. Firstly it ignores that as Christians you claim God did precisely that and secondly it is currently impossible for you to know what laws apply outside of what we can observe. If you do not have any evidence of what lies out with this universe then literally anything is possible. This makes any solution to how the universe and human life came into existence possible and as a result any claimed vision of how it happened infinitesimally probable. With this being the case I cannot see how I could continue to base my life on something that it is almost impossible is true.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ross Woodward

Active Member
Nov 12, 2018
132
27
51
Warwick
✟9,196.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
How long have you felt this way?
Probably longer than I would admit to myself but actively pursuing an answer for only 3 weeks. I am an analyst by profession though so that 3 weeks has not been idle.
 
Upvote 0

gadar perets

Messianic Hebrew
May 11, 2016
4,252
1,042
70
NC
Visit site
✟130,996.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
One need only consider the human eye, ear, brain, DNA, a single cell, etc., to understand they had to be designed by a divine being. Such intricate designs do NOT happen by chance.
 
Upvote 0

Hieronymus

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
8,427
2,998
52
the Hague NL
✟69,862.00
Country
Netherlands
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
@OP

So another Christian falls away due to lousy apologetics and / or ignorance of those who should know their stuff...

Evidence for the existence of God in general is i.m.o. a matter of logic and reason, a.k.a. philosophy.
Our reality is an effect of some cause, and what would be the ORIGINAL Cause?
Why does anything exist at all?

As for YHWH Elohim, God of the Bible in particular, the evidence is all historical evidence.
Obviously there are many channels who would have you believe it is all nonsense and they're willing to lie and / or bend the truth for it too.
That in itself indicates it's an important subject. In fact i find it a strong piece of evidence for the case for God of the Bible and Jesus Christ.
You can find good stuff regarding the case for Christ on the web.

Maybe my playlist could help you:
apologetics - YouTube
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Ross Woodward

Active Member
Nov 12, 2018
132
27
51
Warwick
✟9,196.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
One need only consider the human eye, ear, brain, DNA, a single cell, etc., to understand they had to be designed by a divine being. Such intricate designs do NOT happen by chance.

Sorry but that is nonsense. The existence of something complex is no proof of design. Design is not about complexity but about intent. The simplest things can be designed too.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: seeker0
Upvote 0

Dansiph

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 26, 2018
1,349
1,001
UK
✟119,794.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I have a rational and evidence based mindset. I am by nature a skeptic. I don't believe in much of anything really. No bigfoot, no ghosts, no UFOs. But I believe in God.

If you asked me why, it would be a very long discussion completely devoid of what passes for apologetics. I don't buy those either.

But I'll leave you with a question I've asked myself a number of times. If I simply gave up my faith, how would my life change? Would it be for the good, for the bad, or would nothing change at all?

I don't know the answer to that question.
That's an interesting point about it being for the good.

I think if I am honest and confess my faults one to another (James 5:16). I fear if I don't catch my doubts and discard them I could spiral and backslide massively. I don't want to even say that I'd lose my belief because of how extreme it is to say. But hopefully you see my point. To me it would not be good if we lost our faith. I am not pointing fingers but I think people's worldy desires can make them want to "give up" their faith as you put it
 
  • Like
Reactions: HTacianas
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ross Woodward

Active Member
Nov 12, 2018
132
27
51
Warwick
✟9,196.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
@OP

So another Christian falls away due to lousy apologetics and / or ignorance of those who should know their stuff...

Evidence for the existence of God in general is i.m.o. a matter of logic and reason, a.k.a. philosophy.
Our reality is an effect of some cause, and what would be the ORIGINAL Cause?
Why does anything exist at all?

As for YHWH Elohim, God of the Bible in particular, the evidence is all historical evidence.
Obviously there are many channels who would have you believe it is all nonsense and they're willing to lie and / or bend the truth for it too.
That in itself indicates it's an important subject. In fact i find it a strong piece of evidence for the case for God of the Bible and Jesus Christ.
You can find good stuff regarding the case for Christ on the web.

Maybe my playlist could help you:
apologetics - YouTube

Logic and reason alone cannot tell you what is true. For example a man can be up a tree. I can offer you several perfectly logical and reasonable options as to how he go there. It is only through the application of evidence that we can establish which is most likely true.

Populism is also not an indication of what is true. In fact its what I blame a lot of the issues we have in the world on at the moment. Truth should not be replaced with what is popular.
 
Upvote 0

gadar perets

Messianic Hebrew
May 11, 2016
4,252
1,042
70
NC
Visit site
✟130,996.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Sorry but that is nonsense. The existence of something complex is no proof of design. Design is not about complexity but about intent. The simplest things can be designed too.
So you believe life started from a single cell, correct? How did that cell come to have a nucleus containing DNA and a mitochondria to power it, etc? Chance?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hieronymus
Upvote 0

Basil the Great

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 9, 2009
4,766
4,085
✟721,243.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Green
I have been brought up Church of England here in the UK. Went to Sunday School, CofE primary and Middle. Involved with church based SCout Groups as a Leader. I have been attending church about once a month at my local village church. However I now find myself in a tricky position as I realise I am actually an agnostic atheist.

I have been searching for evidence of Gods existence and can’t find any. Each time I try to find the truth I am merely presented with faith as proof by Christians and the use of presuppositional apologetics, which frankly I find utterly dishonest.

Is there somewhere where I can discuss evidence for God and for the Christian faith with people who may have a similarly rational and evidence based mindset?
I recommend that you research what some of the great scientists have had to say. Many here would not consider some of them Christians, but many/most were at least Deists, believing in a Supreme Being that created and sustains the Universe. I recall a book that I read decades ago while I was in college. It was written by a philosopher, but I do not recall his name. He laid out all of the pros and cons for the existence of God. His final summation was that he felt that the odds for God's existence were slightly higher than the odds against His existence and not because God was necessary to create the Universe, but because the Universe has been sustained for billions of years and this would seem to indicate a Supreme Intelligence behind it all.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ross Woodward

Active Member
Nov 12, 2018
132
27
51
Warwick
✟9,196.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
So you believe life started from a single cell, correct? How did that cell come to have a nucleus containing DNA and a mitochondria to power it, etc? Chance?

We do not know! That’s the point. Christianity claims to know the unknowable. The only way we can know is to examine the evidence and test the theory. But nobody has been able to present me with any evidence of God.
 
Upvote 0