Lord's Supper - Wine or Grape Juice?

[Hank77]

Scripture says Yeshua used "artos" not "azymous".

Thanks, you just solved a problem for me.
I usually really good about looking words up in the Greek or Hebrew if there is a question about something but never once thought to compare the breads.

 

[Hank77]

and Yom Kippur

Opps, Thanks.
Time to give up for the night, it's the ween hours here. Thanks for your help.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Unleavened bread was used ONLY during one period per year, the days of unleavened. Scripture says Yeshua used "artos" not "azymous"...

Which scripture are you looking at?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Which scripture are you looking at?

Regarding leavened being used all year other than in the days of unleavened? Or that Yeshua used arton? He used the same word for "daily bread" in The Lord's prayer.
Matthew 26:26, Luke 22:19
Ἰησοῦς ἄρτον καὶ εὐλογήσας ἔκλασεν...

While in Matthew 26:17 azumos is used regarding the days of unleavened.
πρώτῃ τῶν ἀζύμων προσῆλθον οἱ...

 

[TerryWoodenpic]

In our church we have both grape juice and wine at the Eucharist. Grape juice is preferred by people with an alcohol problem or an objection to alcohol.
I do not see this as a "religious" or "Doctrinal" problem.

It is of course an option to not take the cup at all.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

In our church we have both grape juice and wine at the Eucharist. Grape juice is preferred by people with an alcohol problem or an objection to alcohol.
I do not see this as a "religious" or "Doctrinal" problem.

It is of course an option to not take the cup at all.

That is no problem, either can be used...both are the fruit of the vine. Both can be used for kiddush on Shabbat.."boreh p'ri hagafen"

 

[Der Alte]

Any holy convocation day where no work can be done is a Sabbath.

You didn't even read the scripture I posted, which was also posted by another member. Once again.

Exodus 12:16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.​

The 1st and 7th ULB are never called a Sabbath in the OT. Because they are not Sabbaths, despite what a lot of folks have been taught and fervently believe. All 100% work is prohibited on the Sabbath, preparing and cooking food is specifically permitted on 1st/7th ULB.

Actually boiling the grape juice cleans the grapes of the mold to make it clean. Not a full boil is needed. Just enough to clean it, then take it off the fire. It preserves the grapes into a syrup and sealed up, and when needed as new wine (grape juice) a bit of water is added.
Think about grape jelly. Even when it is stored for a long time it doesn't ferment.

Do you have any scripture or any contemporary manuscript evidence from 1 BC-1 AD documenting this? If the grape juice was not brought to a full boil it would not be a syrup. Jelly will not spoil quickly when canned in a sealed container but such technology did not exist in 1 BC-1 AD. But even sealed containers of jelly have an expiration date.

 

[Antig]

Wrong--please read post # 54--the word was used for either fermented or unfermented. If you look up the way Greeks drank their wine, they also used a very diluted wine. They considered full strength wine---uncivilized. Greek thought was used in much if Jewish life as in they even used their language to write the NT in.

Na. Wine was wine. Alcoholic. Full strength. This is why it was warned not to be a drunk etc.

Can you imagine wedding guests asking for non alcoholic wine from Jesus?

 

[Antig]

The last supper was a significant event and held lots of symbolism. The bread had to be unleavened to represent the fact there was no sin (leaven) in Him. The unfermented juice was necessary to represent Christs pure life... blood that was unblemished to be a worthy sacrifice on the cross.

Pure guess work.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Pure guess work.

Hardly, but thanx for the insightful response as usual...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

nice try...

It was not a nice try.
It is the truth.
The simple facts say that a Thursday or Friday crucifixion does not work.
If Jesus was crucified on Thursday, it would be Sunday at 3:00PM when He would be risen.
If Jesus was crucified on Friday, it would be Monday at 3:00PM when He would be risen.

Jesus said to the thief on the cross that He would be with Him in Paradise that very day. Jesus did not go to Heaven during His three days and three nights. Jesus was in the Heart of the Earth. Jesus went to Abraham's bosom and Jesus visited those who perished during the global flood in Sheol.

God is very precise on how He does things.
If three days and three nights does not mean 72 hours exactly then we can just start to allegorize other facts in the Bible.

Only a Wednesday crucifixion fits what Scripture says.
In fact, Mary could not buy spices to anoint Jesus on Thursday because it was a High Holy day or High Sabbath according to the Pharisee’s misguided traditions. Shops and markets would have been closed, so she could not go out and buy any spices to annoint Jesus. However, there would have been time for her to buy and prepare the spices on Friday. This is why a Thursday and Friday crucifixion does not work. If Jesus was crucified on a Thursday, the next days Friday and Saturday would have both been a Sabbath. She would not have had time to buy and prepare any spices to anoint Jesus. If Jesus was crucified on a Friday, again, she would not be able to buy and prepare spices. The next day would be a Saturday Sabbath, and shops would be closed at sundown on the beginning calendar day of Sunday for her to buy the spices.

Note:

Some say Mark 16:9 is a declaration of the point of when Christ had risen. However, this is merely talking about how Christ was already risen.

"Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week,..." (Mark 16:9).

It's talking about the physical state of the body of Jesus and not about the actual event of Him being risen. For example: Bob can say, "when Rick was alive the first day of the week." This does not imply that Rick was not alive the previous day.

 

[Hank77]

If Jesus was crucified on a Friday, again, she would not be able to buy and prepare spices. The next day would be a Saturday Sabbath, and shops would be closed at night time on Sunday for her to buy the spices.

The 7th day Sabbath would have ended at sundown and I would imagine that they would know a vendor who regularly sold in the market place, maybe even a gentile vendor, at the gates.

 

[truefiction1]

How do you KNOW the Holy Spirit entered you? What did you experience? What is your testimony?

I experienced the Kingdom of Heaven to the extent allowed me at any particular time (Luke 17:20-21).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The 7th day Sabbath would have ended at sundown and I would imagine that they would know a vendor who regularly sold in the market place, maybe even a gentile vendor, at the gates.

Did they have cell phones back then? I am not buying it.
Plus, it destroys how we interpret the Bible. Nowhere is "three days and three nights" ever said to be an allegory or not true. Three days and three nights = 72 hours. You cannot change the math on that. Jesus meant what He said literally in this case.

 

[Phil 1:21]

To answer the original post...

While I still believe the wine was fermented, it made me wonder about our Lord's Supper. Should that wine be grape juice or fermented wine (Mormons use water).

To me that's like asking if the cover of our Bibles should be black or red, which is to say the external is unimportant.

 

[Hank77]

Did they have cell phones back then? I am not buying it.

Why would they have needed a phone?

 

[1stcenturylady]

Na. Wine was wine. Alcoholic. Full strength. This is why it was warned not to be a drunk etc.

Can you imagine wedding guests asking for non alcoholic wine from Jesus?

Maybe in Ireland, but these were Jews. They have a totally different mind-set.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Regarding leavened being used all year other than in the days of unleavened? Or that Yeshua used arton? He used the same word for "daily bread" in The Lord's prayer.
Matthew 26:26, Luke 22:19
Ἰησοῦς ἄρτον καὶ εὐλογήσας ἔκλασεν...

While in Matthew 26:17 azumos is used regarding the days of unleavened.
πρώτῃ τῶν ἀζύμων προσῆλθον οἱ...

Then what is the purpose of getting all the leaven out of the house before Passover? They even make a game of it for teaching their children by hiding a bit. If there was no leaven in the house, including anything that contained leaven, like bread, how can it be said they used leavened bread at the Passover meal? We're missing something here.

 

[1stcenturylady]

You didn't even read the scripture I posted, which was also posted by another member. Once again.

Exodus 12:16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.​

The 1st and 7th ULB are never called a Sabbath in the OT. Because they are not Sabbaths, despite what a lot of folks have been taught and fervently believe. All 100% work is prohibited on the Sabbath, preparing and cooking food is specifically permitted on 1st/7th ULB.

Do you have any scripture or any contemporary manuscript evidence from 1 BC-1 AD documenting this? If the grape juice was not brought to a full boil it would not be a syrup. Jelly will not spoil quickly when canned in a sealed container but such technology did not exist in 1 BC-1 AD. But even sealed containers of jelly have an expiration date.

I know that scripture by heart, my friend. I KNOW the 7th day, Saturday, is the weekly Sabbath. But there were annual Sabbaths as well that were holy convocations and no work allowed. Ready Leviticus 23. The list starts with the weekly Sabbath, but continues.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I experienced the Kingdom of Heaven to the extent allowed me at any particular time (Luke 17:20-21).

Do you have a personal testimony, or not? I was filled with the Holy Spirit on February 9, 1977, AFTER going to church for 30 years! You can quote scripture if you like, but even Satan can do that. If you are going to tell people they are not in the Church, because they are SDA and not your denomination, then you better have personal evidence.