• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Greg Merrill

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2017
3,535
4,616
72
Las Vegas
✟364,724.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
It's actually a violation of CF rules to accuse Christians who believe in the Real Presence of practicing cannibalism.

But to answer your question, here is a good statement of what the Real Presence is all about.

The Lord's Supper, otherwise known as the Sacrament of the Altar, the Eucharist, or Holy Communion, is the Sacrament by which Jesus Christ sustains our faith. It is the sustaining Sacrament. This is a most profound mystery. According to his own words, the resurrected and ascended Jesus gives His entire true body and true blood, in, with, and under consecrated bread and wine, to every communicant to eat and to drink to assure them of the forgiveness of sins and promise of eternal life. He gives that forgiveness and eternal life He won in the death and resurrection of His body. (Matthew 26:26-28; Mark14:22-24; Luke 22:14-20; 1 Corinthians 11:23-26; 1 Corinthians 10:16) This is not cannibalism. Yet, in a mystery, Christ does give His true body and true blood in the bread and wine for Christians to eat and to drink. He does not do this for bodily nourishment, but for spiritual nourishment. He does this to provide a concrete and tangible assurance of forgiveness and salvation to each communicant personally. And since this Sacrament is a deep mystery that makes no sense to human reason, it requires faith to believe that what Christ promises is true, in spite of the fact that what He is saying seems impossible. This is consistent with being saved by faith alone. Taking Christ at His word as to what He says this Sacrament is exercises and strengthens saving faith which trusts Christ's Word and rests in His forgiveness and power alone. We receive this Sacrament in sorrow for sin, as God defines it, in a desire to turn away from it, and in faith in Christ and in His words regarding what this Sacrament is and what he gives through it.

Our Saviour Lutheran Church
I don't want to intentionally break CF rules, and since this doctrine of transubstantiation doesn't make human sense, and could not be verified under a microscope to actually be bread and wine turned into the literal body and blood of Christ, I will try not to respond to this thread any further. Thank you for your attempt to try to explain things to me. Wishing you well, and God's very best.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
74
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟339,430.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Agreed.... When most say "early church" they are thinking 300's on, when I use the term I mean 30ish DD through the Bar Kokhba Revolt. That is when the face shifted from being Hebraic to Greek (at least in terms of a majority). And by 150AD we have Justin Martyr calling Jews "Christ Killers" and this enters the anti-Semitic undertone we have not really enjoyed in our faith.

HONK! Tha'ts not correct. While Justin Martyr called the Jews "Christ Killers", he is speaking about Matthew 27:24-25, which says, "When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but [that] rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed [his] hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye [to it]. Then answered all the people, and said, 'His blood [be] on us, and on our children.'"

Also, there is the prophesy in John 11: 49-50 "And one of them, [named] Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, 'Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.'"
 
Upvote 0

Greg Merrill

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2017
3,535
4,616
72
Las Vegas
✟364,724.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
God works outside of time. Eternal means without time. Why should our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ limit Himself to just what is happening at the moment of the Last Supper, and NOT to all of time. Just as Jesus, when He died, descended to hell, and there preached the Good News, and trampling death by His death and bestowing eternal life on anyone who would accept His sacrificial death as a ticket out of hell, then why would the Eucharist--the Mystery He began on the night of Holy Thursday, be just for that night? Or be symbolic?

That's something I can't understand about the Reformers. Everything in the Old and New Testaments are supposed to be literal, but when they come to the Last Supper (Or John 6, or 1 Cor 11:23-25), it MUST BE SYMBOLIC!!! Was Zwingli so afraid of looking TOO CATHOLIC? Anybody want to try to answer that one?
There is a basic rule: "Take the Bible literally, except when it is obviously not." Jesus said "I am the door..." Ps 91:4 says "He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust." Heb 12:25 says "Our God is a consuming fire." These and many others are all obviously not to be taken literally.
 
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
74
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟339,430.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
No one has tested the Catholic eucharist in a lab and discovered the genetic profile or DNA sequencing of Christ the Messiah.

FOR ALL REFORMERS, AND THOSE WHO FOLLOW AFTER THEM:

Transubstantiation is a technical effort to try to explain HOW the change happened by the Thomistic theologians of the Roman Catholic Church. Even though the various molecules of bread and wine do not change into molecules of body and blood, the essence of the bread (the breadness of the bread, if you will) is changed into the Essence of the Body of Jesus. Likewise the essence of the wine changes into the Essence of the Blood of Christ.

Most other Pre-Reformation Churches have not picked into this as deeply as the RCC. They just say that the CHANGE happens, we look at it as a mystery, and we don't feel a need to clarify it to outsiders
 
  • Agree
Reactions: zippy2006
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
74
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟339,430.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

Are you calling the body of Jesus useless? I'm shocked!
 
Upvote 0

Greg Merrill

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2017
3,535
4,616
72
Las Vegas
✟364,724.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Are you calling the body of Jesus useless? I'm shocked!
Actually I have said from the pulpit a number of times that one could eat the entire body of Jesus and drink all of his blood, and as Jesus said "the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I speak are spirit and they are life." These are Jesus' words, not mine. I am not trying to be shocking, offensive, or argumentative. Wishing you well, and all of God's best.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1213
Upvote 0

W2L

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2016
20,085
10,988
USA
✟213,593.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Actually I have said from the pulpit a number of times that one could eat the entire body of Jesus and drink all of his blood, and as Jesus said "the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I speak are spirit and they are life." These are Jesus' words, not mine. I am not trying to be shocking, offensive, or argumentative. Wishing you well, and all of God's best.
I agree. The life giving water in John chapter 4 is symbolic. Two chapters later the Lord talks about the bread of life, and eating his flesh and drinking his blood. Its all symbolic.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Greg Merrill
Upvote 0

Tigger45

Mt 9:13..."I desire mercy, not sacrifice"...
Site Supporter
Aug 24, 2012
20,782
13,206
E. Eden
✟1,313,646.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
No kidding? This I did not know. Thanks for the info. Much appreciated. :oldthumbsup:

I've seen them use this type before. You'll notice the spicket at the bottom of it used to disperse the water. They may also supply little cups for your convenience.

Now back to our regular programming ;)


HolyWaterFont.JPG
 
Upvote 0

Tangible

Decision Theology = Ex Opere Operato
May 29, 2009
9,837
1,416
cruce tectum
Visit site
✟67,243.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
I don't want to intentionally break CF rules, and since this doctrine of transubstantiation doesn't make human sense, and could not be verified under a microscope to actually be bread and wine turned into the literal body and blood of Christ, I will try not to respond to this thread any further. Thank you for your attempt to try to explain things to me.
It's my pleasure.

And to explain a bit further, you don't have to believe in Transubstantiation to believe in the Real Presence. Transubstantiation is an attempt to explain the HOW of the Real Presence, which really doesn't matter. It's the WHAT and the WHY that we should be concerned with.
 
Upvote 0

Mountainmike

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nov 2, 2016
4,819
1,644
67
Northern uk
✟668,274.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I don't want to intentionally break CF rules, and since this doctrine of transubstantiation doesn't make human sense, and could not be verified under a microscope to actually be bread and wine turned into the literal body and blood of Christ, I will try not to respond to this thread any further. Thank you for your attempt to try to explain things to me. Wishing you well, and God's very best.
But as I pointed out in the Eucharistic miracles it has been verified by forensic labs AS real,blood , heart myocardium. So your premise is false.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,499
20,784
Orlando, Florida
✟1,517,806.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
I've seen them use this type before. You'll notice the spicket at the bottom of it used to disperse the water. They may also supply little cups for your convenience.

I still drink holy water once in a while. There's no "shelf date" on it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tigger45
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
74
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟339,430.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
I still drink holy water once in a while. There's no "shelf date" on it.

I take medicine with it.

Plus, the Holy Water that flows from Lourdes is constantly being drunk, bathed in and so on.
 
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
74
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟339,430.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
He broke a piece of matzah, and while sitting there with his disciples said, "this is my body." The point being there... he was sitting there with them... he was handing them the piece of unleavened bread and so the bread wasn't his body, it was being handed to the disciples from his body. Therefore, it is a symbol for what he would do... and for us... what he did. :)

Okay Ken. It's obvious that nobody's opinion is going to be changed on this thread.
 
Upvote 0

W2L

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2016
20,085
10,988
USA
✟213,593.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
This life giving water is symbolic. Its eternal.

John 4:13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”


Look, Jesus says that his food is to do Gods will. He clearly defines what food is, ie, flesh and blood.

32 But He said to them, “I have food to eat of which you do not know.”

33 Therefore the disciples said to one another, “Has anyone brought Him anything to eat?”

34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.
 
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
74
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟339,430.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
The work that he accomplished by raising from the grave is what gave him the authority over sin and death. He can perfect or not perfect anyone or anything and nothing we can do causes us to gain a foothold on his favor... it is truly His gift.

Forgive me, but WRONG! He was only able to perform and accomplish what He has done because HE IS GOD! His authority over death, hell, satan himself comes from Him! Jesus is God, and is able to do anything. The Father allowed all these things to happen to teach us how to live.

Even though we can never do enough, believe enough, have faith enough to satisfy God's requirement that only Perfection is to be allowed in heaven, God the Father gave us a way to break beyond those bounds, and to come to Him, fully perfected. That way was written in the Law, prophesied about by prophets, and fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

If you are looking for blood to be shed for the atonement of sin, then the blood that Jesus shed at His circumcision would be enough! This faith that we share (and sometimes argue about, endlessly), is not about ticking points off on a list. Christianity is not us trying to get to heaven. Christianity is about God reaching to us! We are not called to be robots (I have to do things in this order, and I must finish before this day is over, and I cannot deviate, even though if I do the things in order it will take 48 hours). We are called to have LIFE, and that to abundance!

All we need to do is cooperate with God. All Jesus (God, remember) has commanded us to do is to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, and to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. This is not a heavy burden. “For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” (Mt 11:30)

It doesn't matter to me whether you believe that the Eucharist is a symbol or the Real Presence of the Lord come to us. Believe what you want. All I am asking you to do is to cooperate with God!
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.