Lords supper is symbolic

[FenderTL5]

You (and @DaveW-Ohev ) ..we have a commandment in the Torah that states not to drink blood, and we have the Acts 15 letter that says to avoid blood (and that written after the ascension by at least a decade or so) then their view was no blood ingested. If the cup is literally his blood...

Just to place a fly in the ointment (so to speak ) (John chapter 6):
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him..
..Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, “Do you take offense at this?

..After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Just to place a fly in the ointment (so to speak ) (John chapter 6):
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him..
..Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, “Do you take offense at this?

..After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.

I'll see your fly and add one of my own.

John 4:13-14

13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again,14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

Something tells me Father Jacobsen would be rather offended if I walked into mass and started lapping up the holy water.

 

[Alithis]

Guys:

Can anyone cite the Bible verse that says that the Eucharist in the Lords supper is symbolic? Catholics believe it is literally Christ's body and blood. Protestants say it is a symbol. Can anyone show where the Bible says it is a symbol?

Both are wrong ..problem solved

 

[HowdyDave@]

Perhaps among Protestants... but the early church, which in the first century was predominately Jewish, would have viewed drinking blood and eating the flesh of another as being pagan to the core and against God's commandments. Even if you are anomian (against/without law) you still accept the Acts 15 letter which says to refrain from blood. How can God inspire a people to repeat an OT command to refrain from blood AFTER messiah said to drink his blood? God is not the author of confusion.

What do you mean by "the early church"?

By the second century (post 100 AD) there were more Gentile converts to Christianity than there were Jewish converts.

To properly answer this question, you need to look at the original language and decide whether the sentence structure is literal or metaphorical. (The Church was in agreement for over 1000 years that it was literal.)

 

[Tangible]

The life is in the blood. Jesus turns the tables on the old covenant. He gives us his body and his blood to eat and drink because in them is the life of Christ, given to us and for us. He is in us and we are in him.

 

[Ken Rank]

What do you mean by "the early church"?

By the second century (post 100 AD) there were more Gentile converts to Christianity than there were Jewish converts.

Agreed.... When most say "early church" they are thinking 300's on, when I use the term I mean 30ish DD through the Bar Kokhba Revolt. That is when the face shifted from being Hebraic to Greek (at least in terms of a majority). And by 150AD we have Justin Martyr calling Jews "Christ Killers" and this enters the anti-Semitic undertone we have not really enjoyed in our faith.

 

[Albion]

A remembrance is not the actual thing or event, but remembering the event or thing, thus celebrating the Lord's Supper is a symbol, not an actual sacrifice.

Wait a moment. Were we talking about the Supper being...a sacrifice? I thought the controversy was over a representational view of the sacrament vs. believing that Christ, in some sense, gives his very self to his followers.

 

[FireDragon76]

I guess it will always be a matter of interpretation. What makes you believe your interpretation is correct over anyone else's?

The memorialist interpretation is theologically an innovation. Nobody but heretics taught it prior to the 16th century. Even Wycliffe and Jan Hus, so fond among the Reformed and Evangelical community, taught something more like the Lutheran doctrine than any notion of "real absence".

 

[Goatee]

INTERPRETATION.................Yet again!

50 people could read a Bible passage and all come up with different interpretations!

 

[Tangible]

INTERPRETATION.................Yet again!

50 people could read a Bible passage and all come up with different interpretations!

And yet only one of them is what the Holy Spirit, through the writer, intended to communicate.

 

[PanDeVida]

He broke a piece of matzah, and while sitting there with his disciples said, "this is my body." The point being there... he was sitting there with them... he was handing them the piece of unleavened bread and so the bread wasn't his body, it was being handed to the disciples from his body. Therefore, it is a symbol for what he would do... and for us... what he did.

PS... same with the blood. It is against God's commandments, NT and OT, to drink blood. While he sat there, before blood was shed, he held up WINE and said, "this is my blood." It was wine, he said so and he hadn't shed any blood yet. Therefore, like the unleavened bread.... it was a symbol of what he would do at that time... and for us looking back, what he did.

Ken, in your profile, reads: "Prove All Things". Should we Catholics call you Doubting Thomas? Because you have lack of faith, you are anemic Sick because you do NOT DISCERN the Body and Blood of the Lord! You put limits to God in what he can and cannot do, with His Body and Blood, etc...

Ken, when John the Baptist Spoke in: Matthew 3:9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham for our father. For I tell you that God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham. Ken, Do you believe GOD IS ABLE???

Ken, John the Baptist, has the FAITH of a Catholic. Amen

Ken, now when Jesus Spoke "THIS IS MY BODY" "THIS IS MY BLOOD". Why do you have little faith? Doubting Ken, do you also need to put your hand into HIS side and touch the nail marks, before you can say: My Lord and My God??? Ken, your words: Prove All Things.

Ken, the (Lack of faith) you stated: "The point being there... he was sitting there with them... he was handing them the piece of unleavened bread and so the bread wasn't his body, it was being handed to the disciples from his body. Therefore, it is a symbol for what he would do... and for us... what he did". KEN! I already know that you do not believe that God Is Omnipotent, aka "ALL Powerful. Because you limit God. However! do you believe Jesus Christ is Omnipresent, which means Jesus can be present in all place at all times??? (1.) If your answer is YES, He is Omnipresent! then your quote above proves nothing! Because if Jesus Can be Omnipresent, more than two place at one time, then He is ABLE to Even touch/carry Himself/AND distribute Himself to His Apostles, via in the form of Bread/Body and Wine/Blood. Amen (2.) If you answer NO, He is Not Omnipresent! Then I know why you believe, what you believe re: the Eucharist, that is just LACK OF FAITH/being Lukewarm.

Ken, when people, eat cooked meat they also partake of the Blood, yes even if it's cooked! We take in all It's NUTRIENTS!

The Jews during passover. No bones might be broken (Jesus had no broken bones) either during the cooking or during the eating. The JESUS/lamb was set on the table at the evening banquet, and was eaten by the assembled company after all had satisfied their appetites with the ḥagigah or other food. The sacrifice had to be consumed entirely that same evening, nothing being allowed to remain overnight. While eating it, the entire company of those who partook was obliged to remain together, and every participant had to take a piece of the JESUS/lamb at least as large as an olive. Women and girls also might take part in the banquet and eat of the sacrifice. The following benediction was pronounced before eating JESUS/lamb: "Blessed be Thou, the Eternal, our God, the King of the world, who hast sanctified us by Thy commands, and hast ordained that we should eat the Passover." The "Hallel" was recited during the meal, and when the lamb had been eaten the meaning of the custom was explained, and the story of the Exodus was told.

Ken, in the OT the Jewish Passover Lamb, was what you call symbolic, It was a foreshadowing, of the NT Lamb/Jesus Christ which WE MUST Eat and Drink. Jesus Christ did not come to destroy the Law or the Prophets BUT to FULL FILL IT, LITERALLY!!!

Ken, What was Symbolic, in the OT is Now LITERALLY in the NT. Ken, you are living in the OT symbolic Passover Lamb It is time that you come into the NT Paschal Lamb/Jesus Christ Eat Drink and be Merry In the Lord.

Nothing symbolic can save a Man.

 

[Philip_B]

The notion of anamnesis is often seen as somewhat related to the words of the older at the Passover Meal who at the end of the recounting of the journey out of Egypt says simply 'tonight we have come out of Egypt'. The truth of history brought into contemporary reality, not magic but mystery, the truth of God's love spoken not in words but in the language of bread and wine.

 

[Ken Rank]

Ken, in your profile, reads: "Prove All Things". Should we Catholics call you Doubting Thomas? Because you have lack of faith, you are anemic Sick because you do NOT DISCERN the Body and Blood of the Lord! You put limits to God in what he can and cannot do, with His Body and Blood, etc...

Ken, when John the Baptist Spoke in: Matthew 3:9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham for our father. For I tell you that God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham. Ken, Do you believe GOD IS ABLE???

Ken, John the Baptist, has the FAITH of a Catholic. Amen

Ken, now when Jesus Spoke "THIS IS MY BODY" "THIS IS MY BLOOD". Why do you have little faith? Doubting Ken, do you also need to put your hand into HIS side and touch the nail marks, before you can say: My Lord and My God??? Ken, your words: Prove All Things.

Ken, the (Lack of faith) you stated: "The point being there... he was sitting there with them... he was handing them the piece of unleavened bread and so the bread wasn't his body, it was being handed to the disciples from his body. Therefore, it is a symbol for what he would do... and for us... what he did". KEN! I already know that you do not believe that God Is Omnipotent, aka "ALL Powerful. Because you limit God. However! do you believe Jesus Christ is Omnipresent, which means Jesus can be present in all place at all times??? (1.) If your answer is YES, He is Omnipresent! then your quote above proves nothing! Because if Jesus Can be Omnipresent, more than two place at one time, then He is ABLE to Even touch/carry Himself/AND distribute Himself to His Apostles, via in the form of Bread/Body and Wine/Blood. Amen (2.) If you answer NO, He is Not Omnipresent! Then I know why you believe, what you believe re: the Eucharist, that is just LACK OF FAITH/being Lukewarm.

Ken, when people, eat cooked meat they also partake of the Blood, yes even if it's cooked! We take in all It's NUTRIENTS!

The Jews during passover. No bones might be broken (Jesus had no broken bones) either during the cooking or during the eating. The JESUS/lamb was set on the table at the evening banquet, and was eaten by the assembled company after all had satisfied their appetites with the ḥagigah or other food. The sacrifice had to be consumed entirely that same evening, nothing being allowed to remain overnight. While eating it, the entire company of those who partook was obliged to remain together, and every participant had to take a piece of the JESUS/lamb at least as large as an olive. Women and girls also might take part in the banquet and eat of the sacrifice. The following benediction was pronounced before eating JESUS/lamb: "Blessed be Thou, the Eternal, our God, the King of the world, who hast sanctified us by Thy commands, and hast ordained that we should eat the Passover." The "Hallel" was recited during the meal, and when the lamb had been eaten the meaning of the custom was explained, and the story of the Exodus was told.

Ken, in the OT the Jewish Passover Lamb, was what you call symbolic, It was a foreshadowing, of the NT Lamb/Jesus Christ which WE MUST Eat and Drink. Jesus Christ did not come to destroy the Law or the Prophets BUT to FULL FILL IT, LITERALLY!!!

Ken, What was Symbolic, in the OT is Now LITERALLY in the NT. Ken, you are living in the OT symbolic Passover Lamb It is time that you come into the NT Paschal Lamb/Jesus Christ Eat Drink and be Merry In the Lord.

Nothing symbolic can save a Man.

The work that he accomplished by raising from the grave is what gave him the authority over sin and death. He can perfect or not perfect anyone or anything and nothing we can do causes us to gain a foothold on his favor... it is truly His gift.

I am not Catholic and respect your right to view the cup as blood or the bread as his body. I don't... I see him tell us to do this thing to REMEMBER him, not ingest him. I appreciate your concern, the time you put into your post.... but I don't agree and won't agree. He >>DID<< shed his blood and whether or not I see a cup of Welch's Grape Juice as having been transformed into His real blood or not... has no bearing on the fact that He did indeed shed His blood for us. Blessings.

 

[Ken Rank]

Ken, in your profile, reads: "Prove All Things".

Incidentally.... "proving all things" does not mean that we, as the body of Christ but who as a people are still in a fallen state.... will agree on every detail and doctrine. It could be that you are correct, it could be that I am correct... but it also could be that we are both wrong. God said through the Prophet Jeremiah, "I will correct you ALL in due course." We all have error... we are His, He loves us, but we have not been perfected yet. And until we are, we should expect imperfection... not embrace it ..... but expect it.

Blessings and Peace.
Ken

 

[PanDeVida]

INTERPRETATION.................Yet again!

50 people could read a Bible passage and all come up with different interpretations!

True, for the first 1500 there was only One Church Having as it states in Ephesians 4: 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Ephesians 4:5, is true within the Catholic Church. Out side of the Catholic Church, is where the chaos begins re: the different interpretations, than what was give to the Catholic Church by the Holy Ghost.

Catholics and protestans have the same Lord, the same Baptism, but not the Same Faith that the Catholic Church has in Ephesians 4:5.

 

[chaz491]

As I said to others... believe as you are convicted, you don't answer to me. I might even be wrong... not a problem. God will correct us all in due course... as He said He would through Jeremiah.

so when he says my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink - is this the language of symbolism? true food kind of sounds like he means it is really food doesn't it? If he meant symbolic food why would he say true food?

 

[PanDeVida]

The work that he accomplished by raising from the grave is what gave him the authority over sin and death. He can perfect or not perfect anyone or anything and nothing we can do causes us to gain a foothold on his favor... it is truly His gift.

I am not Catholic and respect your right to view the cup as blood or the bread as his body. I don't... I see him tell us to do this thing to REMEMBER him, not ingest him. I appreciate your concern, the time you put into your post.... but I don't agree and won't agree. He >>DID<< shed his blood and whether or not I see a cup of Welch's Grape Juice as having been transformed into His real blood or not... has no bearing on the fact that He did indeed shed His blood for us. Blessings.

Hi Ken, you would be Catholic, if it were not for the Protestant reformation.

Ken, you stated: "I see him tell us to do this thing to REMEMBER him, not ingest him". Hmmm Ken, well, what part of Eat and Drink is not Ingesting Him??? If one eats, one injest, if one drinks, one injests.

Ken, you won't see a Cup of Welches Grape juice in the Catholic Church, you will see wine before the Consecration of the Mass. Or are you better than Jesus Christ who did INJEST wine???

Indeed Christ shed His Blood, for us to drink that WE MAY HAVE LIFE IN US AND BE RAISED ON THE LAST DAY. Ken, if you want life and be raised on the Last day, Eat and Drink His Body and Blood.

Ken, when you come before the Lord, and He asks you why did you not eat and drink His Body and drink His Blood, that you may have life. Ken, what would you say to Him??? That you did not know??? You have been told by Jesus Christ in John 6, you have been told by His Catholic Church, Note: you have been told, you have warned, there would be no excuse for you.

Ken, if you did not know, then you would not be guilty, but since you now know and don't change and come to believe, your guilt remains.

I pray for you to come to believe.

 

[chaz491]

As I said, the answer is in the liturgy. The 4 cups of wine represent the blood on the door posts. The Matzoh represents the unleavened cakes that had no time to rise. The Charoset represents the mortar for the bricks; and the Maror represents the years of bitterness thru hard labor.

While these are all representative and symbolic; the command is to place yourself back in that situation which makes it more literal.

my flesh is true food.../. my blood is true drink..... this does not sound like symbols or am I wrong? true food kind of sounds like he really means it is his food. when he says his blood is true drink what are you interpreting this to mean?



The only people in the early church that believed it was symbolic were the heretics of the day.

 

[chaz491]

Disciples of Jesus didn’t eat the physical body of Jesus. That is why I think it is symbolical, or means something else than his physical body. That something else I think is his words and his spirit that is transmitted through his words.

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
John 6:63

Truly, truly I tell you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death at all.”
John. 8:51

The disciples in John 6:60 certainly thought he really meant his flesh and blood. They couldn't accept it. This is why they turned away and no longer followed him.

 

[PanDeVida]

so when he says my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink - is this the language of symbolism? true food kind of sounds like he means it is really food doesn't it? If he meant symbolic food why would he say true food?

Incidentally.... "proving all things" does not mean that we, as the body of Christ but who as a people are still in a fallen state.... will agree on every detail and doctrine. It could be that you are correct, it could be that I am correct... but it also could be that we are both wrong. God said through the Prophet Jeremiah, "I will correct you ALL in due course." We all have error... we are His, He loves us, but we have not been perfected yet. And until we are, we should expect imperfection... not embrace it ..... but expect it.

Blessings and Peace.
Ken

Ken, you stated: "It could be that you are correct, it could be that I am correct... but it also could be that we are both wrong". Ken, Ok let's break it down:

Would Christ condemn those For Taking Him Literally? No! Here is why, because the Apostles who believed in Christ that we must Eat and Drink His Body and Blood stood with Him. Because we have faith in Him who has the Words of everlasting Life.

Would Christ condemn you for taking Him symbolically? Yes, and here is why, because those Apostles who left, Christ's side, Believed Jesus was speaking Literally! That We Must Eat and Drink His Body and Blood. THEREFORE, these Apostles who left Christ side, will be Your judges. Because You have left with them.

Ken, we can not be both wrong, or both correct, thinking so is being lukewarm.