Logical Problems with Calvinism

[FreeGrace2]

God's gift is the grace that leads to eternal life. He will not withdraw this gift, but neither will he stop us from rejecting it or accepting it then throwing it away.

I've been asking where the verses are that indicate that one can "throw eternal life away". As far as rejecting the gift, what you have kept dodging is the fact that it can't be "rejected" after it's been received. If that were possible, the Bible would have discussed that possibility.

That's why we must be careful not to shipwreck our faith through sin.

Does the passage on shipwrecking our faith say anything about loss of salvation? No.

It's dangerous to speculate or assume what the Bible doesn't say.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Quite remarkable. You simply dismiss the verses that prove you wrong. I wonder if there is a psychological term for this?

Actually, you've been dismissing the verses that refute your views. And I've been explaining every verse you come up with. You have ignored context and simply misunderstand the verses you think support your views.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God's gift is the grace that leads to eternal life. He will not withdraw this gift, but neither will he stop us from rejecting it or accepting it then throwing it away.

That's why we must be careful not to shipwreck our faith through sin.

Consider this fact. When one believes in Christ for salvation, they become a child of God, per Jn 1:12- "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name," and Gal 3:26 - "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."

So, here's the problem with your view. Those who have believed ARE sons of God through faith. And God sends His children to the lake of fire for disobedience. Well, so much for Christ's substitionary death on the cross for them, huh.

 

[tulipbee]

God's grace reaches out to all of us. We see him at work in the world an in our lives.

Romans 1:20
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Gottcha. God reaches to save.

 

[Thursday]

Does the passage on shipwrecking our faith say anything about loss of salvation? No.

So you believe that a person can be saved without faith?

 

[Thursday]

Consider this fact. When one believes in Christ for salvation, they become a child of God, per Jn 1:12- "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name," and Gal 3:26 - "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."

So, here's the problem with your view. Those who have believed ARE sons of God through faith. And God sends His children to the lake of fire for disobedience. Well, so much for Christ's substitionary death on the cross for them, huh.

They ARE sons of God in the present. That doesn't mean they will remain so if they throw away their faith.

The prodigal son was only united to his father because he returned to him. Had he stayed away he would have died in his filth.

2 Chron 15:2
Whenever you seek him, you will find him. But if you abandon him, he will abandon you.

Romans 11
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

John 15
6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned...10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

 

[Thursday]

Gottcha. God reaches to save.

But I don't believe all people are saved. Do you?

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is what I said:
"Does the passage on shipwrecking our faith say anything about loss of salvation? No."

So you believe that a person can be saved without faith?

I can't, for the life of me, figure out what your question has to do with what I said. And you didn't answer my question. Just a dodge.

Of course a person needs to believe in order to be saved. I've already made that clear in my posts. My disagreement with you is in the claim that one needs more than faith to be saved.

Your question suggests that you haven't been paying much attention to my posts. If we're going to have a discussion, both sides need to pay attention to the other's posts.

 

[FreeGrace2]

They ARE sons of God in the present. That doesn't mean they will remain so if they throw away their faith.

What verse teaches that one can lose their sonship?

The prodigal son was only united to his father because he returned to him. Had he stayed away he would have died in his filth.

The prodigal son isn't about loss of salvation. It's about loss of fellowship with his father. And restoration of fellowship. The words "dead" and "alive" aren't about eternal life and loss of it, but is about fellowship.

 

[GillDouglas]

Do you believe that God wanted Adam and Eve to sin?

Do you believe that God didn't know Adam was going to be disobedient? Did it catch Him by surprise?

 

[Marvin Knox]

If this is true, then it is God's fault when a man goes to Hell because that man had no opportunity for salvation from birth.

Everyone on earth has exactly the same opportunity for salvation from birth.

It is not God's fault that men go to Hell. It is their own fault for being sinners.

God is not to be faulted for putting mankind under a curse. We are under a curse because of the sins of the head of mankind - the first Adam.

Likewise those who are made new creatures in the last Adam are not under the curse.

They are justified by faith just as the original Adam was "unjustified" by lack of faith. That, it seems to me, is altogether fitting.

What is necessary is a new creation according to the Word of God and according to Calvinist doctrine.

Do I like the fact that I was born under a curse and spiritually dead? No - not any more than you do probably.

But if that's the way of things according to the Word of God then that's the way it is.

I'm not going to second guess the way God decided to display His innate knowledge of good and evil in this age or the way He will do it in the ages to come.

Your problem is with the doctrine of original sin - not with Calvinists. Even you Papal authorities believe in and teach the doctrine of original sin.

I don't like things the way they are and if I had my way everyone under the curse of God would have been saved by the sacrifice of Christ once for all.

But that's not the way things work.

Natural men will not believe and be saved unless acted upon by God in a certain way in grace. That's simply what the Bible teaches.

If God chooses to so act in grace for one man and pass another by for whatever purpose He does that - the man He passes by is not less guilty of sin and worthy of Hell than he was before God passed him by.

The flesh profits nothing. What is necessary is a new creation.

Could it be that your understanding of Unconditional Election and Irresistible Grace is different than that of a true Five Points Calvinist?

For the purpose of our conversation - it's not enough different so that I can't defend the Calvinist doctrine of unconditional election and irresistible grace with you here.

But - yes - I would definitely nuance those doctrines much more than the way they are usually put forward by most 5-point Calvinists. The same is true for all of the so called 5 points of Calvinisms - limited atonement in particular.

 

[Thursday]

This is what I said:
"Does the passage on shipwrecking our faith say anything about loss of salvation? No."

I can't, for the life of me, figure out what your question has to do with what I said.

It's very simple. Paul tells us that sin can shipwreck, or destroy, our faith.

So, I ask you again, can a person be saved without faith?

If not, then you will have to admit that this passage is indeed about losing salvation.

 

[Thursday]

The prodigal son isn't about loss of salvation. It's about loss of fellowship with his father. And restoration of fellowship. The words "dead" and "alive" aren't about eternal life and loss of it, but is about fellowship.

The prodigal son is about our relationship to God.

You clearly can't answer for the verses I provided.

Try these as well:

2 Peter 2:21
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

Heb 6:5
4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

James 5
19My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

 

[Thursday]

Everyone on earth has exactly the same opportunity for salvation from birth.

.

I agree, but that is not what Calvinism teaches.

 

[Thursday]

Do you believe that God didn't know Adam was going to be disobedient? Did it catch Him by surprise?

God can know what is going to happen without wanting it to happen.

Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Luke 13:34
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

 

[GillDouglas]

God can know what is going to happen without wanting it to happen.

So God wasn't powerful enough to stop it? Do you think that Adam could have NOT disobeyed?

 

[Thursday]

So God wasn't powerful enough to stop it? Do you think that Adam could have NOT disobeyed?

God is powerful enough to choose to grant us free will.

We are made in his image.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I agree, but that is not what Calvinism teaches.

The key words in my statement are "from birth". What I mean is that one "natural" man has exactly the same chance and opportunity as another.

Calvinists believe and teach that the offer of salvation is presented by God through us exactly the same to the elect and the non-elect as well.

Calvinists believe and teach that any man and every man who responds in faith to the offer of the gospel can and will be saved - bar none.

Of course they also believe and teach what the scriptures tell us about whether any natural man will respond.

They also believe and teach - as the scriptures tell us - that only those who are acted upon by God in a way of special grace will come to the Son.

They also believe and teach - as the scriptures tell us - that no man will be so acted on by the Spirit of God in an effectual way unless they are to be given to the Son by the Father.

Those who the Father gives to the Son will come to Him. God guarantees it in His Word.

The scriptures say little about the way that God may draw all men to Himself by His Spirit - except to say that He does.

It would be here where I would nuance the doctrine of irresistible grace a little more than many of my Calvinist brethren.

I believe that the Spirit can be resisted by both the elect and the non-elect alike to some extent. But the Spirit will succeed in opening the eyes of the elect to the gospel offer where He will not strive forever with the non-elect.

That may well be a subtle difference in the doctrine of irresistible grace. But it is a pertinent and vital one IMO.

As with all of the 5-points - it is better for Calvinists to nuance in all of the scriptures which the other side uses --- just as they would hope they would do for them. If both sides included all of the scripture in their systematic theologies the middle ground (the high ground IMO) could easily be seen.

Instead both sides seem to pretty much ignore the other sides scriptures, or at best twist them, and gather into their own camps. (I am of Paul. I am of Apollos. etc. comes to mind. We ought not to do that - no matter who we are.)

 

[ToBeLoved]

So you believe that a person can be saved without faith?

If ones faith gets shipwrecked, they must have had faith to start with, right?

 

[Thursday]

If ones faith gets shipwrecked, they must have had faith to start with, right?

Exactly. It is teaching that we can lose our faith through sin.