Logical Problems with Calvinism

[EmSw]

Good question there.
Read this, good scriptural references and come to your own conclusions.
We still are not robot puppets, but yes all things are determined when God has His hands in the outcome. Otherwise there would be an unscripted element of chance. God by His own nature is all powerfully omniscient else God would not be Lord of all creation, so this is no problem for God to have foreknown all things that occur, and all things do exist for His own pleasure.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/SpiritOfTheWord/004AllThingsAreOfGod.htm

Psalm 5:4
For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness...

According to your words above, why does wickedness exist, when He takes no pleasure in wickedness?

Ecclesiastes 5:4
When you make a vow to God, do not delay to pay it; For He has no pleasure in fools.

Why did God create fools, since He has no pleasure in fools?

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:32
For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies, says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’

Why do the wicked die if God has no pleasure in it?

 

[GillDouglas]

Psalm 5:4
For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness...

According to your words above, why does wickedness exist, when He takes no pleasure in wickedness?

He allowed it. Without wickedness we would have nothing to compare holiness to.

Ecclesiastes 5:4
When you make a vow to God, do not delay to pay it; For He has no pleasure in fools.

Why did God create fools, since He has no pleasure in fools?

Even fools can be made wise to glorify Him, if it is His will to do so.

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:32
For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies, says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’

Why do the wicked die if God has no pleasure in it?

All are wicked and should die, yet John 3:16.

 

[EmSw]

Not what he knows in advance but what he scripts. That was my question (or that part of it, anyway), and with reference to what Calvinists would say. And nothing about a divine plan or God knowing the course of events, but determining each and every last thing that will happen.

If a man has been 'scripted' to be sent to hell, does he have ANY input or chance to escape hell?

If God scripted the death of millions through Stalin and Hitler, did they have any input or chance to escape death at the hands of these devils?

If God has determined for you to go to hell, do you have any input or chance to escape hell?

If God has determined for you to hate Him, do you have any say in not hating Him?

Has anyone on this forum hated God before you were saved? If so, then how did you 'release' yourself from God's determination to hate Him?

 

[sdowney717]

Not what he knows in advance but what he scripts. That was my question (or that part of it, anyway), and with reference to what Calvinists would say. And nothing about a divine plan or God knowing the course of events, but determining each and every last thing that will happen.

Our thoughts are our own thoughts since our sins are our own sins, He does not sin against Himself by forcing people to do what really only comes naturally anyway to sinners.

Genesis 6:5
Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Psalm 10:4
The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God; God is in none of his thoughts.

Psalm 94:11
The Lord knows the thoughts of man, That they are futile.

Proverbs 15:26
The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the Lord, But the words of the pure are pleasant.

1 Corinthians 3:20
and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.”

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

We read that Jesus knew the thoughts of men.

Luke 5:22
But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, He answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts?

Luke 6:8
But He knew their thoughts, and said to the man who had the withered hand, “Arise and stand here.” And he arose and stood.

Luke 11:17
But He, knowing their thoughts, said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and a house divided against a house falls.

 

[EmSw]

He allowed it. Without wickedness we would have nothing to compare holiness to.

Even fools can be made wise to glorify Him, if it is His will to do so.
All are wicked and should die, yet John 3:16.

You didn't address 'all things do exist for His own pleasure.'

If God takes no pleasure in wickedness, then all things do NOT exist for His own pleasure. Since God determined wickedness, yet takes no pleasure in it, can God make up His mind? What is it? You are sending out mixed signals, which make no sense at all.

 

[GillDouglas]

If a man has been 'scripted' to be sent to hell, does he have ANY input or chance to escape hell?

No.

If God scripted the death of millions through Stalin and Hitler, did they have any input or chance to escape death at the hands of these devils?

No.

If God has determined for you to go to hell, do you have any input or chance to escape hell?

No.

If God has determined for you to hate Him, do you have any say in not hating Him?

No.

Has anyone on this forum hated God before you were saved? If so, then how did you 'release' yourself from God's determination to hate Him?

I did. I hated Him for my mother's suicide when I was 20 years old. I hated Him when my daughter's brain was wrecked by a virus when I was 25.

I was saved at 30 by His doing, by His will and it was He who changed my heart for Him.

 

[EmSw]

Our thoughts are our own thoughts since our sins are our own sins, He does not sin against Himself by forcing people to do what really only comes naturally anyway to sinners.

Who made man to do what comes naturally? Did man make this up? Was it determined beforehand by God that man would be wicked? Did God determine (wickedness) against His pleasure?

Genesis 6:5

Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Psalm 10:4
The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God; God is in none of his thoughts.

Psalm 94:11
The Lord knows the thoughts of man, That they are futile.

Proverbs 15:26
The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the Lord, But the words of the pure are pleasant.

1 Corinthians 3:20
and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.”

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

We read that Jesus knew the thoughts of men.

Luke 5:22
But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, He answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts?

Luke 6:8
But He knew their thoughts, and said to the man who had the withered hand, “Arise and stand here.” And he arose and stood.

Luke 11:17
But He, knowing their thoughts, said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and a house divided against a house falls.

Who determined what the thoughts of man would be? For God to not take pleasure in wickedness, He sure missed the boat in determining it for man.

 

[EmSw]

No.

No.

No.

No.

I did. I hated Him for my mother's suicide when I was 20 years old. I hated Him when my daughter's brain was wrecked by a virus when I was 25.

I was saved at 30 by His doing, by His will and it was He who changed my heart for Him.

What was God's determination for your life then? To hate Him and then love Him? So, you will have to agree, God's determination can be changed.

 

[GillDouglas]

You didn't address 'all things do exist for His own pleasure.'

If God takes no pleasure in wickedness, then all things do NOT exist for His own pleasure. Since God determined wickedness, yet takes no pleasure in it, can God make up His mind? What is it? You are sending out mixed signals, which make no sense at all.

Did God allowing Satan to torment Job still glorify Him? Do your emotions get in the way of your understanding that ALL things are His will, even the bad stuff?

 

[GillDouglas]

What was God's determination for your life then? To hate Him and then love Him? So, you will have to agree, God's determination can be changed.

Because we see time in a straight line we see it as a change, I first hated Him and then loved Him just like many others have, but it was always His plan that I would love Him. We aren't born loving God, we are reborn by Him.

 

[sdowney717]

Thoughts are they not a product of the mind?
For those who trust Christ, their minds are guarded by God.
Philippians 4:7
and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

For those who do not trust Christ, they are given over to do what they desire. Fact is we who are saved were also following after Satan, until the intervention God making us alive who were dead, therefore giving us a new mind.

Romans 1:28
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

Romans 1:29
being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,

Ephesians 2:3
among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Ephesians 4:17
[ The New Man ] This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind,

Ephesians 4:23
and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,

 

[EmSw]

Did God allowing Satan to torment Job still glorify Him? Do your emotions get in the way of your understanding that ALL things are His will, even the bad stuff?

Doug, I respect your posts, but this time, you are dodging the question. Does God take pleasure in wickedness? Why did He determine wickedness upon man if He takes no pleasure in it?

For God to will evil, then God has to know evil. Evil does not proceed from Good.

 

[EmSw]

Because we see time in a straight line we see it as a change, I first hated Him and then loved Him just like many others have, but it was always His plan that I would love Him. We aren't born loving God, we are reborn by Him.

So, God only determined part of your life. Who determined the first part?

 

[sdowney717]

You didn't address 'all things do exist for His own pleasure.'

If God takes no pleasure in wickedness, then all things do NOT exist for His own pleasure. Since God determined wickedness, yet takes no pleasure in it, can God make up His mind? What is it? You are sending out mixed signals, which make no sense at all.

Something wrong with believing that?
Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

[GillDouglas]

Doug, I respect your posts, but this time, you are dodging the question. Does God take pleasure in wickedness? Why did He determine wickedness upon man if He takes no pleasure in it?

For God to will evil, then God has to know evil. Evil does not proceed from Good.

I believe it is simply a misunderstanding, Wayne. To use a common phrase to try to get you to see what I mean here: 'The ends justify the means.' God ALLOWS wickedness and evil to occur in order that His will is achieved.

 

[GillDouglas]

So, God only determined part of your life. Who determined the first part?

God has determined my whole life.

 

[EmSw]

Something wrong with believing that?
Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

I would like your comments on the passages which state what God has no pleasure in. Why did God determine wickedness in which He has no pleasure in?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I believe it is simply a misunderstanding, Wayne. To use a common phrase to try to get you to see what I mean here: 'The ends justify the means.' God ALLOWS wickedness and evil to occur in order that His will is achieved.

That is anti-biblical.

God was pleased after He created mankind ( A & E) and said it was good.

After Adam & Eve sinned, God was not pleased.

The Word tells us that God HATES sin.

God is holy. He can only be holy.

How is God's will achieved through wickedness and evil?

 

[ToBeLoved]

God has determined my whole life.

This is the problem with certain doctrine, in this case, Calvinism.

There comes a point when human beings stop taking responsibility for their actions or even the lack of action because they get complacent because God is doing everything.
But I think that is a false sense of what God wants from us.

God gives us blessings so we do well with them. The Word tells us to those who do well with what God has given them, He gives them more. The Bible gives us a clear path of what God wants us to be, but so many people just sit on their hands and live their lives waiting for God to do something in their lives. BUT the glory to God is the living of the day to day life. Remaining faithful and staying in communion with Him. We are not waiting for God to do something great. We are giving our lives to Him and looking for all the ways we can do the things that He has taught us in His Word, in our lives.

 

[sdowney717]

I would like your comments on the passages which state what God has no pleasure in. Why did God determine wickedness in which He has no pleasure in?

Matthew Henry Commentary on Rev 4:11, note (3.)

3. The words of adoration: they said, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory, and honour, and power, Rev. 4:11. Observe, (1.) They do not say, We give thee glory, and honour, and power; for what can any creature pretend to give unto God? But they say,thou art worthy to receive glory. (2.) In this they tacitly acknowledge that God is exalted far above all blessing and praise. He was worthy to receive glory, but they were not worthy to praise, nor able to do it according to his infinite excellences.

4. We have the ground and reason of their adoration, which is threefold:—

(1.) He is the Creator of all things, the first cause; and none but the Creator of all things should be adored; no made thing can be the object of religious worship.

(2.) He is the preserver of all things, and his preservation is a continual creation; they are created still by the sustaining power of God. All beings but God are dependent upon the will and power of God, and no dependent being must be set up as an object of religious worship. It is the part of the best dependent beings to be worshippers, not to be worshipped.

(3.) He is the final cause of all things: For thy pleasure they are and were created. It was his will and pleasure to create all things; he was not put upon it by the will of another; there is no such thing as a subordinate creator, that acts under and by the will and power of another; and, if there were, he ought not to be worshipped. As God made all things at his pleasure, so he made them for his pleasure, to deal with them as he pleases and to glorify himself by them one way or other. Though he delights not in the death of sinners, but rather that they should turn and live, yet he hath made all things for himself, Prov. 16:4. Now if these be true and sufficient grounds for religious worship, as they are proper to God alone, Christ must needs be God, one with the Father and Spirit, and be worshipped as such; for we find the same causality ascribed to him. Col. 1:16, 17, All things were created by him and for him, and he is before all things, and by him all things consist.