Logical Problems with Calvinism

[sdowney717]

regarding 1 Timothy 1, these two people are turned into apostates, they have departed the faith.
Still Paul wont give up on them, turning them over to Satan, they will be turned out of the church into the world, placing their fates in God's hands.

18 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck,20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Those who depart the faith, the truth, Christ's teachings, are apostates and also they are antichrists, they pay heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.
The promise from Christ is His people will know the truth as does John teach us that HIS people will have an anointing from God to know the truth.
1 John 2
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Paul tells us that a man reaps what he sows.

That directly contradicts Calvinism.

How so?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Exactly. And they know Jesus is the savior. They believe, but it is not enough for salvation.

They know for a fact.

That's more than believe.

Also, demons do not have access to salvation. That is for human beings.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

He's the one who started the anti-protestant/pro-papist dialog - not us.

He said that his Roman cult, which he calls the only true church, wrote the scriptures and that our Lord did not. He said that only Roman Catholics have the fullness of truth.

He said that the scriptures he provided showed Calvinism to be illogical. But he refuses to exegete the scriptures which he himself provided for us.

If he had simply come against the doctrine with scripture (as you say you have) there would have been no problem.

You've made it your personal "ministry" to undermine the faith of believers all over the internet. You accused many of us of teaching the antinomian heresy.

If you had only attacked the doctrine of the Calvinists and not misrepresented what Calvinists (and we in this forum) believe about sinning against God there would have been no problem in your case either.

You reap what you sow.

What is an Antinomian? An Antinomian is anyone who ignores God's moral law on some level. Most people here deny Sinless Perfectionism or that a believer can stop sinning in this life. That is basically saying that one will always sin at some point in the future. It does not matter if one sins less and less and they even confess it. For can someone murder less and less and confess it and that would be like okay with God (Especially if they said they would do such an evil in the future)?

...

 

[nobdysfool]

What is an Antinomian? An Antinomian is anyone who ignores God's moral law on some level. Most people here deny Sinless Perfectionism or that a believer can stop sinning in this life. That is basically saying that one will always sin at some point in the future. It does not matter if one sins less and less and they even confess it. For can someone murder less and less and confess it and that would be like okay with God (Especially if they said they would do such an evil in the future)? ...

Ridiculous examples, which no one participating here has ever said or advocated. Why do you keep making these false allegations against those who disagree with your extreme and unbiblical beliefs? What do you hope to gain by doing that? Truth is not arrived at by means of falsehoods, and misrepresentations. You can claim that you're not speaking of anyone in particular, but the fact that you keep making these false accusations shows that you DO have particular people in mind when you post them here, namely those of us here who withstand your false doctrine.

Sinless perfection? I will be sinless and perfect when I go to be with Jesus in Heaven. Until then, I will do my best to live as He would have me live, and repent and ask forgiveness if I fall short. That is the way it works. It's sad that you won't accept it.

 

[Marvin Knox]

What is an Antinomian? An Antinomian is anyone who ignores God's moral law on some level. Most people here deny Sinless Perfectionism or that a believer can stop sinning in this life. That is basically saying that one will always sin at some point in the future. It does not matter if one sins less and less and they even confess it. For can someone murder less and less and confess it and that would be like okay with God (Especially if they said they would do such an evil in the future)? ...

No that is not the definition of Antinomianism.

Because the word is not a particular Greek or Hebrew word - we can only go by what the current use of the word is.

It is usually used as a pejorative against another Christian. That is the way you use it here on this thread against us.

Webster is as good a definition as one will find anywhere IMO.

an·ti·no·mi·an (noun)—One who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation. —Merriam-Webster's dictionary

Note the highlighted words above because they are the key for you seeing that the term does not apply to anyone here - at least no one who has shown those colors.

Clearly no one here would say that the moral law is of "no use or obligation". We have said as much over and over again.

They would, however say that one's failure in keeping of that law all the time has no effect on one's salvation in the most basic sense (i.e. going to Heaven or being saved vs. lost).

But we will answer for our un-confessed and repented of sins at the Judgement Seat. There will be loss of some kind because of those kinds of sins since we are under obligation to yield to the Holy Spirit in His work of sanctification.

That is clearly not the same as what Antinomians would say.

You know the difference whether you will admit it here or not. Your charge concerning any of us here participating in the Antinomian heresy is false.

Again - you know that. Therefore you are sinning against us purposefully by so charging us.

You probably think that you have stumbled onto a very new and novel way to refute OSAS - which is your ministry here on the internet.

But you have really stumbled onto is a very very old sin and nothing new. That sin is slandering your brothers and sisters.

Repent or you will answer for your sin at the Judgement Seat of Christ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You ignored the verses I posted which show that Jesus draws ALL men to himself.

He will not cast us away, but he won't stop us from leaving.

Even those who do leave, or "fall away" cannot lose their salvation. Because God's gifts are irrevocable per Rom 11:29. And prior to that verse, Paul described both justification (5:15,16,17) and eternal life (6:23) as gifts of God.

Further, WHEN one believes, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE, which is a GUARANTEE of God's own possession FOR the day of redemption.

So, the free gift of eternal life is irrevocable, and all believers have been sealed for the day of redemption, a guarantee.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Belief is necessary, but not sufficient.

I see. You've directly ignored the verses that clearly state that belief is the singular condition for salvation.

Even the demons believe.

Just what is it that the demons believe, in James 2:19? That God is One, or they believe in monotheism. Do you know why they believe that? Because all demons, before they joined Satan's rebellion, lived with God. Of course they know God is One.

But, belief in monotheism isn't the gospel, and doesn't save anyone. So please don't use verses out of context.

Paul said that we reap what we sow.

Discernment certainly helps to understand Scripture.

Romans 2
God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life.

And who was Paul addressing this to in Romans 2? "Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things." 2:1

The phrase "you who passes judgment" refers to those who are moralists; those who think they are superior to others and judge others but are just as guilty as those they judge.

The key to v.6 in Rom 2 is the phrase "by perseverance in doing good". Paul's point is that IF that were possible, they would have eternal life. And Paul continues in that line of thought in v.13 "for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified." But, can or has anyone really EVER been justified by the Law? No. Paul makes that absolutely clear in ch 3, v.9 "What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin".

That pretty much eliminates ANYONE from "persevering in doing good" receiving eternal life. Those who are "under sin" HAVE NOT persevered in doing good.

Then, in v.20 Paul notes the purpose of the Law: "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin."

This verse PROVES that NO ONE has or can "persevere in doing good" from v.6 and thereby receive eternal life.

Then, one more time, v.23 summarizes the plight of mankind: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

Matt 25
45"Then He will answer them, I assure you: Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me either.'
46"And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

This verse is a separation between believers, who have inputed righteousness through faith in Christ, with unbelievers, who don't have Christ's imputed righteousness.

From the KJV:
Rom 4:11 - And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also

Rom 4:22 - And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

James 2:23 - And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Throughout Romans 4, the basis of this imputed righteousness is faith in Christ. To which James affirmed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Christ says all that are drawn are saved in John 6.
So you can not say Christ draws all men to Christ in John 12, else you must believe all men are saved.
You can not be of such a double mind and remain true to scripture. No, each verse must agree with each other in context as scripture can not be broken.

I should hope everyone understands that there can be different contexts within a gospel. In Jn 6, the context focuses on v.45, which is those who have listened and learned from the Father, who come to Christ. Not so in Jn 12.

And the context for 3:16 is v.14, which is a typology of Christ in the OT; specifically the bronze serpent on a pole. The serpent was lifted up for those who had been bitten. And anyone who looked toward (believed - 3:15) at the serpent would be saved from the otherwise fatal bite.

The bitten ones represent the human race; all have been "bitten" or affected by sin. So all need salvation. And anyone who (whosoever) believes in Christ will be saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Exactly. And they know Jesus is the savior. They believe, but it is not enough for salvation.

James 2:19 most definitely is NOT about believing that Jesus is the Savior. The subject of what they believe was clearly stated: "that God is One". Which is monotheism.

It's amazing how many people are confused about 2:19. It's certainly not about saving faith at all. It's about God being One. Which was a particularly Jewish concept, not shared by Gentiles.

James' only point about 2:19 was that even demons have some agreement with the Jews on what they know to be true. And they shudder.

iow, since James' audience knows these things, they'd better give their full attention to it. The shuddering of the demons indicates their fear and awe of God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What is an Antinomian? An Antinomian is anyone who ignores God's moral law on some level. Most people here deny Sinless Perfectionism or that a believer can stop sinning in this life. That is basically saying that one will always sin at some point in the future.

If you would remove the "always" from your statement, it would be correct. Just because one understands that being a sinner means one will continue to sin, whether on occasion, or more often, doesn't mean they "always sin", as you continue to believe.

It does not matter if one sins less and less and they even confess it.

Actually, it matters a GREAT DEAL. That's what the Bible tells us to do. And when we confess our sins, we are cleansed.

For can someone murder less and less and confess it and that would be like okay with God (Especially if they said they would do such an evil in the future)?

Here what is OK with God. When we sin, we confess it. 1 Jn 1:9

Here is what is not OK with God.
1. Claiming to be without sin. 1 Jn 1:8, 10
2. sinning and not confessing it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you would remove the "always" from your statement, it would be correct. Just because one understands that being a sinner means one will continue to sin, whether on occasion, or more often, doesn't mean they "always sin", as you continue to believe.


Actually, it matters a GREAT DEAL. That's what the Bible tells us to do. And when we confess our sins, we are cleansed.


Here what is OK with God. When we sin, we confess it. 1 Jn 1:9

Here is what is not OK with God.
1. Claiming to be without sin. 1 Jn 1:8, 10
2. sinning and not confessing it.

So if one confesses sin, they are doing so knowing that they will just do that sin some time next week, next month, or at some other time in the future? What is the purpose of confessing one's sin then? One is not really sorry if they are admitting to the fact that they will just immediately do so at some point in the future. For is a man really sorry if he says to his wife that he cheated on her if he planned on cheating on her again at some point in the future? No. Of course not. Why do you think it is any different with God?


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No that is not the definition of Antinomianism.

Because the word is not a particular Greek or Hebrew word - we can only go by what the current use of the word is.

It is usually used as a pejorative against another Christian. That is the way you use it here on this thread against us.

Webster is as good a definition as one will find anywhere IMO.

an·ti·no·mi·an (noun)—One who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation. —Merriam-Webster's dictionary

Note the highlighted words above because they are the key for you seeing that the term does not apply to anyone here - at least no one who has shown those colors.

Clearly no one here would say that the moral law is of "no use or obligation". We have said as much over and over again.

They would, however say that one's failure in keeping of that law all the time has no effect on one's salvation in the most basic sense (i.e. going to Heaven or being saved vs. lost).

But we will answer for our un-confessed and repented of sins at the Judgement Seat. There will be loss of some kind because of those kinds of sins since we are under obligation to yield to the Holy Spirit in His work of sanctification.

That is clearly not the same as what Antinomians would say.

You know the difference whether you will admit it here or not. Your charge concerning any of us here participating in the Antinomian heresy is false.

Again - you know that. Therefore you are sinning against us purposefully by so charging us.

You probably think that you have stumbled onto a very new and novel way to refute OSAS - which is your ministry here on the internet.

But you have really stumbled onto is a very very old sin and nothing new. That sin is slandering your brothers and sisters.

Repent or you will answer for your sin at the Judgement Seat of Christ.

Well, there is no slander here, my friend. I am just speaking the truth of God's Word. For the moral law has no use or obligation (i.e. Antinomianism) when one says they will always sin at some point in the future.

Jesus said "sin no more." to two people. In fact, Jesus said to the man he healed to "sin no more, unless a worse thing come upon you." But folks here are saying they can never stop sinning in this life. Imagine if you said that to the man Jesus healed? He would be apalled at such a notion. Why? Because he would realize that a worse thing could come upon him if he did sin again.


....

 

[Thursday]

How so?

Calvinism claims that man reaps what God sows.

Calvinism tells us that those who are elect just happen to be the lucky lottery winners drawn out of God's hat.

 

[Thursday]

Sinless perfection? I will be sinless and perfect when I go to be with Jesus in Heaven. Until then, I will do my best to live as He would have me live, and repent and ask forgiveness if I fall short. That is the way it works. It's sad that you won't accept it.

That sounds very Catholic!

 

[Thursday]

Even those who do leave, or "fall away" cannot lose their salvation. Because God's gifts are irrevocable per Rom 11:29.

God's gift is the grace necessary for salvation. If we reject his gift it doesn't mean that God revoked his offer. His grace enables us to be saved, it does not force us to be saved.


1 Tim 1:19
with faith and a good conscience. By ignoring their consciences, some people have destroyed their faith like a wrecked ship.

John 6:66
At this point many of his disciples turned away and deserted him.

2 Peter 2
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

Hebrews 10:26
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

 

[Thursday]

I see. You've directly ignored the verses that clearly state that belief is the singular condition for salvation.


Just what is it that the demons believe, in James 2:19? That God is One, or they believe in monotheism. Do you know why they believe that? Because all demons, before they joined Satan's rebellion, lived with God. Of course they know God is One.

But, belief in monotheism isn't the gospel, and doesn't save anyone. So please don't use verses out of context.


Discernment certainly helps to understand Scripture.


And who was Paul addressing this to in Romans 2? "Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things." 2:1

The phrase "you who passes judgment" refers to those who are moralists; those who think they are superior to others and judge others but are just as guilty as those they judge.

The key to v.6 in Rom 2 is the phrase "by perseverance in doing good". Paul's point is that IF that were possible, they would have eternal life. And Paul continues in that line of thought in v.13 "for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified." But, can or has anyone really EVER been justified by the Law? No. Paul makes that absolutely clear in ch 3, v.9 "What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin".

That pretty much eliminates ANYONE from "persevering in doing good" receiving eternal life. Those who are "under sin" HAVE NOT persevered in doing good.

Then, in v.20 Paul notes the purpose of the Law: "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin."

This verse PROVES that NO ONE has or can "persevere in doing good" from v.6 and thereby receive eternal life.

Then, one more time, v.23 summarizes the plight of mankind: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".


This verse is a separation between believers, who have inputed righteousness through faith in Christ, with unbelievers, who don't have Christ's imputed righteousness.

From the KJV:
Rom 4:11 - And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also

Rom 4:22 - And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

James 2:23 - And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Throughout Romans 4, the basis of this imputed righteousness is faith in Christ. To which James affirmed.

It always amazes me what lengths Calvinists will go to in order to change the meaning of scripture.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Even those who do leave, or "fall away" cannot lose their salvation. Because God's gifts are irrevocable per Rom 11:29. And prior to that verse, Paul described both justification (5:15,16,17) and eternal life (6:23) as gifts of God.

Further, WHEN one believes, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE, which is a GUARANTEE of God's own possession FOR the day of redemption.

So, the free gift of eternal life is irrevocable, and all believers have been sealed for the day of redemption, a guarantee.

 

[ToBeLoved]

God's gift is the grace necessary for salvation. If we reject his gift it doesn't mean that God revoked his offer. His grace enables us to be saved, it does not force us to be saved.


1 Tim 1:19
with faith and a good conscience. By ignoring their consciences, some people have destroyed their faith like a wrecked ship.

John 6:66
At this point many of his disciples turned away and deserted him.

2 Peter 2
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

Hebrews 10:26
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

He did not say that.

What he said is that once someone IS saved, they cannot loose that salvation.

 

[Thursday]

1 Tim 1:19
with faith and a good conscience. By ignoring their consciences, some people have destroyed their faith like a wrecked ship.

John 6:66
At this point many of his disciples turned away and deserted him.

2 Peter 2
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

Hebrews 10:26
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,