Logical Problems with Calvinism

[GillDouglas]

A Church is an assembly. Jesus started a Church and gave it leaders. He didn't write a book, he left that to his Church.

The Church still exists, and although some have left it, it contains over 1.2 billion people.

It is an assembly of His people. He left His people to write the Book. There are more belonging to Him than you have any right to say, Pharisee.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Do you even know what Unconditional Election is?

You seem unfamiliar with Calvinist doctrine.

Of course I do.

I pretty much understand it as explained by Calvinist scholar R.C. Sproul as I show here.

“God does not foresee an action or condition on our part that induces Him to save us. This doesn’t mean that God will save people whether they come to faith or not. There are conditions that God decrees for salvation, not the least of which is putting one’s personal trust in Christ. However, that is a condition for justification, and the doctrine of election is something else. When we’re talking about unconditional election, we’re talking in a very narrow confine of the doctrine of election itself.”

That’s pretty much in line with the definition you gave. Of course you did cut and paste that from a Calvinist site so I'm not surprised.

What the bible says:

Romans 2
God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Nice scriptures - which all of us would agree with as I have clearly said.

Now, if you would be so kind as to show us exactly how they show unconditional election to be illogical, we can continue.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Jesus started a Church and gave it leaders. He didn't write a book, he left that to his Church.

Yes and those leaders (Paul, James, John, Luke et al) wrote the book for us. It was written long before your cult "leaders" wrote down their peculiar interpretations of what that book said.

 

[Marvin Knox]

There is only one Truth.

Only one Church was started by Christ. He gave the Church leaders and authority. At what time do you believe it was acceptable to reject this Church?

It has never been acceptable to reject Christ's true church.

It has always been acceptable to reject cult lke renditions of that church - and I do.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

While I disagree strongly with Catholicism, there has to be a nicer way to disagree and or converse with those who are Catholic. Remember, we are not going to reach anyone if we spit venom at them or puff our chest up and speak high and mighty words. Granted, I do not believe in Calvinism or OSAS. But I strive to attack the belief or doctrine and not the people, etc.


...

 

[Marvin Knox]

While I disagree strongly with Catholicism, there has to be a nicer way to disagree and or converse with those who are Catholic. Remember, we are not going to reach anyone if we spit venom at them or puff our chest up and speak high and mighty words. Granted, I do not believe in Calvinism or OSAS. But I strive to attack the belief or doctrine and not the people, etc....

He's the one who started the anti-protestant/pro-papist dialog - not us.

He said that his Roman cult, which he calls the only true church, wrote the scriptures and that our Lord did not. He said that only Roman Catholics have the fullness of truth.

He said that the scriptures he provided showed Calvinism to be illogical. But he refuses to exegete the scriptures which he himself provided for us.

If he had simply come against the doctrine with scripture (as you say you have) there would have been no problem.

You've made it your personal "ministry" to undermine the faith of believers all over the internet. You accused many of us of teaching the antinomian heresy.

If you had only attacked the doctrine of the Calvinists and not misrepresented what Calvinists (and we in this forum) believe about sinning against God there would have been no problem in your case either.

You reap what you sow.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You are mistaken.

But then your conception of what all salvation means and how it is achieved is quite a bit different from mine - you being a Roman Catholic.

Perhaps it would be foolish for us to try to talk to one another because we would have to revisit the Reformation battles again to do so.

What about faith. I can list 20 verses that talk about faith

 

[Thursday]

It is an assembly of His people. He left His people to write the Book. There are more belonging to Him than you have any right to say, Pharisee.

I made no statement about who belongs to Jesus.

I do claim, based on the Word of God, that only one Church has been given the authority to teach the gospel in the fullness of truth.

Jesus speaks of others here:

John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

 

[Thursday]

It has never been acceptable to reject Christ's true church.

It has always been acceptable to reject cult lke renditions of that church - and I do.

When did this happen. At what point in time was it acceptable to reject the Church?

 

[Thursday]

Yes and those leaders (Paul, James, John, Luke et al) wrote the book for us. It was written long before your cult "leaders" wrote down their peculiar interpretations of what that book said.

Paul, James, John, and the other NT writers were all members of the Church.

They did not teach contradictory doctrines. When there was a doctrinal dispute, like the dispute over the requirements for gentile converts in Antioch, they consulted the Church leaders for an answer. Not even Paul had the authority to declare a judgment in this case. He was sent to get an authoritative answer.

Note what the Church leaders say here:

Acts 15
The apostles and elders, your brothers,

To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:

Greetings.

24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.

 

[GillDouglas]

I made no statement about who belongs to Jesus.

I do claim, based on the Word of God, that only one Church has been given the authority to teach the gospel in the fullness of truth.

Jesus speaks of others here:

John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

For you to be SO bold to claim that the only Apostolic Church is actually the Roman Catholic Church is more than wrong, it is unbiblical. If God intended only a very specific group to be His, He would have never hardened the heart of the Jew and given the Truth to the Gentiles. You sound more elitist than those of us who subscribe to the doctrine of the elect.

 

[Thursday]

For you to be SO bold to claim that the only Apostolic Church is actually the Roman Catholic Church is more than wrong, it is unbiblical. If God intended only a very specific group to be His, He would have never hardened the heart of the Jew and given the Truth to the Gentiles. You sound more elitist than those of us who subscribe to the doctrine of the elect.

It is biblical. Jesus started a single Church. He gave his Church leaders with his authority to bind and loose and to forgive sins. These leaders appointed successors. We have historical records telling us who these successors were and are. We have historical writings telling us what these successors taught and continue t you teach.

If you reject the Catholic Church, you are rejecting those sent by Jesus.

Pope Clement(4th pope-Letter to the Corinthians round 80 AD)

Chapter 42

The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ has done so from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits of their labours, having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe.

Ignatius(A Disciple of John)
"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead."

"Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.

"This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God's Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."

"First Apology", Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.



Where are the protestant writings from the early Church?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Where are the protestant writings from the early Church?

I have a copy here on my desk if you wish to borrow it.

Or you could go to https://www.biblegateway.com/ and view them online if you like.

They even have the writings printed out in other languages.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Paul, James, John, and the other NT writers were all members of the Church.

They did not teach contradictory doctrines. When there was a doctrinal dispute, like the dispute over the requirements for gentile converts in Antioch, they consulted the Church leaders for an answer. Not even Paul had the authority to declare a judgment in this case. He was sent to get an authoritative answer.

They didn't go to Rome for a consultation with Church leaders.

At what point in time was it acceptable to reject the Church?

I said that it has never been acceptable to reject the true Church. We are to love the brethren.

On the other hand, those who are in error concerning their view of the gospel we are to reprove and rebuke sharply as I have done to you.


"I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths." 2 Timothy 4:1-4

P.S.
If you can find the time perhaps you could tell us how those verses you provided for us show that unconditional election is illogical - since that was your charge.

 

[Thursday]

They didn't go to Rome for a consultation with Church leaders.

I said that it has never been acceptable to reject the true Church. We are to love the brethren.

On the other hand, those who are in error concerning their view of the gospel we are to reprove and rebuke sharply as I have done to you.


"I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths." 2 Timothy 4:1-4

The Church was based in Rome until Peter went there.

Who decides truth versus error if there is no authoritative Church. Protestantism is a jumble of contradictory and competing doctrines. Is that where you go?

Paul told us that the pillar and foundation of truth is the Church.

Jesus said that if we have a dispute the ultimate authority for settling this dispute is the Church.

In Acts the Church settled a doctrinal dispute in Antioch by consulting Church leaders in Jerusalem.

 

[Thursday]

I have a copy here on my desk if you wish to borrow it.

Or you could go to https://www.biblegateway.com/ and view them online if you like.

They even have the writings printed out in other languages.

In other words, you don't have any.

Why? Because they don't exist.

The Church was and always has been the Catholic Church.

 

[Marvin Knox]

The Church was based in Rome until Peter went there.

Who decides truth versus error if there is no authoritative Church. Protestantism is a jumble of contradictory and competing doctrines. Is that where you go?

Paul told us that the pillar and foundation of truth is the Church.

Jesus said that if we have a dispute the ultimate authority for settling this dispute is the Church.

In Acts the Church settled a doctrinal dispute in Antioch by consulting Church leaders in Jerusalem.

I said:
"If you can find the time perhaps you could tell us how those verses you provided for us show that unconditional election is illogical - since that was your charge."

If you would care to return to the original issue we could leave off this silliness.

Better minds than ours have discussed the issues of the Reformation before us.

We aren't going to solve them here.

If you refuse to answer the simple question about what those verses show about the unconditional election of believers before the foundation of the world - we have nothing more to discuss here.

 

[Thursday]

I said:
"Ican find time perhaps you could tell us how those verses you provided for us show that unconditional election is illogical - since that was your charge."

If you would care to return to the original issue we could leave off this silliness.



Better minds than ours have discussed the issues of the Reformation before us.

We aren't going to solve them here.

If you refuse to answer the simple question about what those verses show about the unconditional election of believers before the foundation of the world - we have nothing more to discuss here.

I don't blame you for wanting to change the subject. It is clear that the early Church was Catholic.

You have yet to address adequately the crystal clear scriptures that lay out conditions for our salvation.

These scriptures contradict the Calvinist tradition of Unconditional Election. If we are required to respond to God's grace though our actions, then our election is not unconditional.

 

[sdowney717]

I don't blame you for wanting to change the subject. It is clear that the early Church was Catholic.

You have yet to address adequately the crystal clear scriptures that lay out conditions for our salvation.

These scriptures contradict the Calvinist tradition of Unconditional Election. If we are required to respond to God's grace though our actions, then our election is not unconditional.

Only those taught by the Father come to Christ. And all that are taught do come to Christ without exception. Christ also says He loses none of those the Father gives Him, and will raise them up on the last day. Christ says you can not come to Him unless the Father grants that you come.
Read John 6. The doctrine of election by grace alone is backed up Christ's words and His chosen apostles writings.

And you will not know God and Christ unless they choose to reveal themselves to someone.
Luke 10
Jesus Rejoices in the Spirit
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

23 Then He turned to His disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see; 24 for I tell you that many prophets and kings have desired to see what you see, and have not seen it, and to hear what you hear, and have not heard it.”

For those whom the Son does not will to reveal Him, they remain blinded in their minds by the god of this age who is Satan.
2 Corinthians 4
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[Thursday]

Only those taught by the Father come to Christ. And all that are taught do come to Christ without exception.

Wrong. All men are drawn to Christ. Not all men come and stay.

John 12:32
32"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

1 Tim 1:19
Cling to your faith in Christ, and keep your conscience clear. For some people have deliberately violated their consciences; as a result, their faith has been shipwrecked.

Heb 10:26
26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

2 Peter 2:20
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

James 5
19My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.